Let's chat Stormcast Eternals

[Denneysman]

the hurricanes pull ahead when you add buffs blessed weapons and azyros buffs do for more for them then the long strikes.

also add a vexillor to move them into rapid fire range that's 27 shots rerolling 1s and every 6+ is another attack. I don't think same buffs on long strikes would work as well.

 

[Immersturm]

Longstrikes are superior hero killers and they can actually hurt things like Dracoths. They are also a good standalone choice. The buffs on Hurricanes cost resouces and point you could have spent on other things. If you are that close, you might as well throw Paladins or Dracoths at the enemy. Longstrikes are similar to the Venator. Take out high priority threats.

Still, I am a bit dubious about both seeing as neither can kill anything realibly and you have Judicators for simple fire support. Why not invest more into Paladins and Dracoths?

This needs testing.

[ledha]

I would make the lord celestant the general, and replace the castellant with a veritant. With one priest for blessed weapon (and the need of a roll of 4), you REALLY need to pass it, because your judicators with blessed weapon are your main source of damage. And the veritant is a better fighter than the castellant (one more attack) and will really like the brand of fury

A celestant who is not general is not really useful i think. Don't do any dmg, and not worth a magical armor (cause it's the last thing your opponent will attack)

 

As for the rest... i would give the luckstone to the venator. With his 30" range, he is most of the time outside of the range of spellcaster, so he don't really need the obsidian amulet

 

Just my personnal advice, of course

[Olincay]

Does everyone think the new raptors will make judicators redundant?
Same point cost.

Pros for raptors = lots of shots, negatives to charge.
Negatives = 18" range, no rend.

Pros for judicators = are battleline, rend, higher wound and model count, longer range.
Negatives = less shots.
 

[Heksagon]

13 minutes ago, Olincay said:

Does everyone think the new raptors will make judicators redundant?
Same point cost.

Pros for raptors = lots of shots, negatives to charge.
Negatives = 18" range, no rend.

Pros for judicators = rend, higher wound and model count, longer range.
Negatives = less shots.
 

+ Judicators are Battleline.

[Let's 'ere it for da boyz!]

9 hours ago, Denneysman said:

the hurricanes pull ahead when you add buffs blessed weapons and azyros buffs do for more for them then the long strikes.

also add a vexillor to move them into rapid fire range that's 27 shots rerolling 1s and every 6+ is another attack. I don't think same buffs on long strikes would work as well.

 

I think where the longstrikes could really shine is in the Vanguard Auxilliary Chamber.  That blanket +1 to all missile attacks is huge.  Along with the buffs from the requisite Justiciar Conclave, they're hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's and wounding on 2's with that tasty 2 damage -2 rend goodness.  6 of those shots per unit with that profile is terrifying.  Each unit has a legit shot at crippling or even taking out a Spirit of Durthu or similar monster/character in one turn.

It kind of sucks there's no way to fit the Aux Chamber into a 2k list.

[Requizen]

I'm leaning towards Longstrikes because killing Heroes is really, really important. Most of the time, that's what my Judicators are dedicated for. And you don't kill important heroes with Rend0, even if it does force them to roll a couple extra dice. A 3+ hero (which is many of them) standing in cover has a 2+ save. Rend-2 is what you need for that, not volume of shots. Well, volume of shots can work, but Hurricanes aren't at that volume, you need like a Rukk or something.

Popping off buffs is top priority against a lot of lists. And while Longstrikes aren't going to jive well with Bless Weapons, they're still good on their own. The swing-iness is a bit of a problem, but any you get through are going to be brutal. I'm almost considering running an Aetherstrike force with a unit of 6, so I can get 12 shots per turn with the Battalion bonus, but that's very different from what I thought I'd be running previously (and what I'm painting currently).

[Siegfried VII]

5 hours ago, Olincay said:

Does everyone think the new raptors will make judicators redundant?
Same point cost.

I feel the opposite may happen.

The Damage potential of the Raptors is not much better that the Judicators. We are talking most of the time of differences of 1 damage. 

As I have already said in anothet topic the fact that the Judicators can receive 9 wounds damage and still be 60% functional combined with the fact that they are battleline, will most likely result in them being the first choice of many generals unless one wishes to build a mainly shooty list that will revolve around the Raptors and perhpas one of the battalions that include them...

[Requizen]

I dunno. I think it depends on how highly you view that Rend-2. Again, if you face a lot of heroes that are hard to kill because of armor (try shooting off a Megaboss standing in Cover, especially with Mystic Shield), something that does -2 and potentially Mortal Wounds is huge.

However, just due to time constraints, I may have to give them a pass. 

[BURF1]

Both units of raptors will be good, but hurricanes will be far more splashable than longstrikes. 1 unit of 3 hurricanes is a solid little disruption/zone control unit, 1 unit of 3 longstrikes is a roulette wheel.

A unit of 9-12 longstrikes on the other hand is scary enough to totally dictate your opponents first 2 turns. A unit of 12 is capable of just about ripping 2 thundertusks off the table first turn, especially with blessed weapons.

 

As for comparing them to paladins, remember, Paladins are actually pretty bad, so you're not comparing big units of raptors to big units of paladins, you're comparing units of raptors to a hammerstrike force or a devastation brotherhood.

[Olincay]

9 hours ago, Heksagon said:

+ Judicators are Battleline.

True, that did slip my mind. 

[Immersturm]

Venators with Luck Stone will murder Heroes more reliably than Longstrikes. Judicators also outperform Longstrikes against 4+ armour saves and worse. I did the math. Longstrikes do one thing better than other and that is killing units with a 3+ save or better. However, when it comes to killing Heroes, you take the Venator, killing average unit you take Judis, killing hordes you take the Hurricanes. Can anything kill 3+ saves more reliably? Well, we have our own elite units. Hurricanes also benefit a whole lot more from movement shenanigans.

This leads me to the conclusion that Longstrikes are a niche unit that is good in some battalions but falls short to some other options we have.

Speaking of elite units, I am not sure if you noticed, but all teleport options now have a 9" restriction. The Vexillor may be 60pts cheaper, but he is constrained by the 9" placement rule. The Chariot prayer has the same limitation and only works on a 3+, in which case you might as well put them into reserves and arrive on a 3+ whereever with the same 9" constraint. I think that the Hammerstrike is the only way to avoid it, which explains its popularity.

This really begs the question whether most teleport shenanigans are really worth it. Palladors can fly and be moved by the Aquilor, same as Raptors. Dracoths are better served with a Heraldor or simply deep striking with the command trait. The banner seems to be overcosted with its new 9" constraint, though it can be fun to throw a unit around, but this is what the Aquilor and Hammerstrike is for.

[Heksagon]

20 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

Venators with Luck Stone will murder Heroes more reliably than Longstrikes. Judicators also outperform Longstrikes against 4+ armour saves and worse. I did the math. Longstrikes do one thing better than other and that is killing units with a 3+ save or better. However, when it comes to killing Heroes, you take the Venator, killing average unit you take Judis, killing hordes you take the Hurricanes. Can anything kill 3+ saves more reliably? Well, we have our own elite units. Hurricanes also benefit a whole lot more from movement shenanigans.

This leads me to the conclusion that Longstrikes are a niche unit that is good in some battalions but falls short to some other options we have.

Speaking of elite units, I am not sure if you noticed, but all teleport options now have a 9" restriction. The Vexillor may be 60pts cheaper, but he is constrained by the 9" placement rule. The Chariot prayer has the same limitation and only works on a 3+, in which case you might as well put them into reserves and arrive on a 3+ whereever with the same 9" constraint. I think that the Hammerstrike is the only way to avoid it, which explains its popularity.

This really begs the question whether most teleport shenanigans are really worth it. Palladors can fly and be moved by the Aquilor, same as Raptors. Dracoths are better served with a Heraldor or simply deep striking with the command trait. The banner seems to be overcosted with its new 9" constraint, though it can be fun to throw a unit around, but this is what the Aquilor and Hammerstrike is for.

So... any ideas for army lists with your math? I would really like to see some great lists with Aquilor and Palladors.

[Requizen]

Venators with Luck Stone will murder Heroes more reliably than Longstrikes. Judicators also outperform Longstrikes against 4+ armour saves and worse. I did the math. Longstrikes do one thing better than other and that is killing units with a 3+ save or better. However, when it comes to killing Heroes, you take the Venator, killing average unit you take Judis, killing hordes you take the Hurricanes. Can anything kill 3+ saves more reliably? Well, we have our own elite units. Hurricanes also benefit a whole lot more from movement shenanigans.
This leads me to the conclusion that Longstrikes are a niche unit that is good in some battalions but falls short to some other options we have.
Speaking of elite units, I am not sure if you noticed, but all teleport options now have a 9" restriction. The Vexillor may be 60pts cheaper, but he is constrained by the 9" placement rule. The Chariot prayer has the same limitation and only works on a 3+, in which case you might as well put them into reserves and arrive on a 3+ whereever with the same 9" constraint. I think that the Hammerstrike is the only way to avoid it, which explains its popularity.
This really begs the question whether most teleport shenanigans are really worth it. Palladors can fly and be moved by the Aquilor, same as Raptors. Dracoths are better served with a Heraldor or simply deep striking with the command trait. The banner seems to be overcosted with its new 9" constraint, though it can be fun to throw a unit around, but this is what the Aquilor and Hammerstrike is for.

I think you're overestimating the Luck Venator a bit much. Yes, he can potentially put out 9 wounds on a Monster or Hero more reliably now, but you still very well may end up using the stone on the hit or wound roll, and even then they might save (very likely on 3+). And that's once per game. The Raptors will do theirs once per turn, and Headshots will make them better over a number of turns.
However, both is even better [emoji4]

The thing with the teleporting options is that they're all essentially opposite in terms of reliability vs availability and cost. Battletrait is always available, but you don't choose the turn (both for when you want them on and when you want them to stay off). Lightning Chariot lets you choose the turn, but still requires a roll and requires a purchase. The banner lets you choose when 100% of the time, but costs the most and is only up once.
For regular dudes, the Trait might be good enough, but for a linchpin model or unit, you might prefer the reliability even at cost.

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[ledha]

the venator has the advantage of a much better treath range, making him able to stay behind then rush and one shot this caster who was hiding far away or blasting everything with his balewind vortex.

for the prayer and the vexxilor, it's more about redeployment than deep striking. And at least, you use the vexxilor on the unit you want and when you want. Scion of the storm is too hasardous and make impossible to plan anything since you don't know who will strike when.

The new banner option make the vexxilor more usefull too. 140 pts for rerolling charge and healing everyone around him can be interesting. Its not a one trick pony of 200 pts who use his banner then do nothing the rest of the game

[Requizen]

Scions of the Storm is really making me look at Tempestors again. Now that they can just drop into shooting range instead of having to tramp over the ground and getting shot, they feel more reasonable to take. The Relictor is also easier to use with Chariot, so we might be able to stack our -hit debuffs. Very nice when you can bop that 2+ hitter down to a 4+.

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[chord]

The best Accessory for a Venator is a Loremaster   (re-roll failed hit/wound rolls)

[Votters]

I have been debating on Hammerstrike versus Devastation Brotherhood.  I like the idea of Devastation Brotherhood, but it lacks the ability to deliver the 3 units of paladins together reliable across the board with speed.  Is it feasible to back them up with shooting and slowly run/walk them across the board with a Staunch Defender general escorting them?

[ledha]

i think it depend of the army you are fighting. Against a close fighting army (ironjaw, death, khorne bloodbound), you won't have much issues about going to the fight with them. 

[BURF1]

27 minutes ago, Votters said:

I have been debating on Hammerstrike versus Devastation Brotherhood.  I like the idea of Devastation Brotherhood, but it lacks the ability to deliver the 3 units of paladins together reliable across the board with speed.  Is it feasible to back them up with shooting and slowly run/walk them across the board with a Staunch Defender general escorting them?

even in a devastation brotherhood you're going to be dropping the paladins in. If you try to run them they'll be lucky to have 2 left when they finally get into combat on turn 4.

[Votters]

29 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

even in a devastation brotherhood you're going to be dropping the paladins in. If you try to run them they'll be lucky to have 2 left when they finally get into combat on turn 4.

That seems really suboptimal, it's in reliable to get all 3 units to drop and then they are 9inch charges away.  Am I putting to much into having the 3 units of paladin's within 3 inch of each other?  

[Requizen]

Putting lists together is making me waver of Raptors. I think their profile is super good but why are they not 140 or 160?

I'm currently checking out:
Lord-Celestant (General, Staunch Defender, Armour of Destiny)
Lord-Relictor (Lightning Chariot)
Knight-Venator (Luckstone)
Liberators x5 (Hammers, Grandhammer)
Liberators x5 (Hammers, Grandhammer)
Judicators x5 (Bows)
Judicators x5 (Bows)
Protectors x10 (4 Maces)
Decimators x5 (2 Maces)
Prosecutors with Javelins x3
Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrikes x6

Skyborne Slayers
2000/2000

Feels ok. Lots of good shooting, good Alpha Strike. Should be able to delete important Heroes and Monsters with impunity, which is nice. What do you think?

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[Grailstorm]

On 27/02/2017 at 3:01 PM, chord said:

Agreed, I don't know why they didn't lower his points.  They had the opportunity. 

Don't think they need to at all. Would happily put him in any list.

[chord]

1 minute ago, Grailstorm said:

Don't think they need to at all. Would happily put him in any list.

Challenge Issued:  1K list with The Prime  ...Go   lol

[Erdemo86]

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Putting lists together is making me waver of Raptors. I think their profile is super good but why are they not 140 or 160?

I'm currently checking out:
Lord-Celestant (General, Staunch Defender, Armour of Destiny)
Lord-Relictor (Lightning Chariot)
Knight-Venator (Luckstone)
Liberators x5 (Hammers, Grandhammer)
Liberators x5 (Hammers, Grandhammer)
Judicators x5 (Bows)
Judicators x5 (Bows)
Protectors x10 (4 Maces)
Decimators x5 (2 Maces)
Prosecutors with Javelins x3
Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrikes x6

Skyborne Slayers
2000/2000

Feels ok. Lots of good shooting, good Alpha Strike. Should be able to delete important Heroes and Monsters with impunity, which is nice. What do you think?

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nice list but i would change that paladins to 10 retributors and 5 protectors. Dont like the Decimators and Retributors + celestant is very op. Also im missing one gryph hound to protect your ranged units. You could remove 1 unit of Liberators and take the retributors + 1 gryph hound.