Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[Dragobeth]

I hope we get a Focus: Seraphon this week, I want to se how those rituals work.

As a silly note: Imagine summoning dread saurians ,oh boy oh boy. (ofc it will be limited, no worries)

[Charles]

7 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Actually it is pretty thematic. The Nagash trilogy shows skilled necromancers being able to focus energies into their dead units to make them strike faster and stronger than any mortal could manage.  Nagash himself (when his power was still largely limited) had a skeleton horde overwhelm a group of highly skilled giant barbarians, despite said barbarians also outnumbering him 4:1 and his living troops giving away the attack 

The Nagash trilogy that is set during Warhammer Fantasy  & not within the Age of Sigmar Lore or IP?

[ageofpaddsmar]

26 minutes ago, Dragobeth said:

I hope we get a Focus: Seraphon this week, I want to se how those rituals work.

As a silly note: Imagine summoning dread saurians ,oh boy oh boy. (ofc it will be limited, no worries)

Me too. Probably something like you get a point for each successful dispel the slann does (not sure on the astrolith guy though) 

Also hope they  slip out a battletomb reboot for seraphon like they did with Khorne

[ageofpaddsmar]

So when do we think this is coming. Heard pre order 16th for release 30th but that seems too far away for my liking

[Killax]

30 minutes ago, Charles said:

The Nagash trilogy that is set during Warhammer Fantasy  & not within the Age of Sigmar Lore or IP?

Pretty much all lore set in WFB applies to AoS in lesser and larger extend. The realms of Age of Sigmar are actually Warhammer Fantasy magic lores. Suffice to say, pretty much all design WFB had for narrative also applies in Age of Sigmar, most of the time however Age of Sigmar adds more epic and stronger aspects to them. Pretty much expected from a historical/grimdark fantasy design going to epic fantasy design. 

1 hour ago, Jamopower said:

I just hope that they have thought about the smaller point clashes as well with the new rules, as the well working scaling of the game has been one of the strong points of AoS. 

So far I do not feel this is the case. Also based on how largely epic those remains in play spells will be. However we'll wait and see what the actual cap is to free summonning. It could be a % of cost...
...The true design issue from my perspective is that it's not possible to balance out stuff like that and still allow for Allies and such also. But maby GW wants to forgo balance for fun. My gut feeling still says that this will not be as fun if you have to pay for it all and one army being able to summon whilst others can't. It's very hard to correct that with costs involved, because while you could thake a % cost increase in the main faction if you then still allow for allies (without summonning and being significantly cheaper) and such things get strange...

[Jamopower]

I believe it can be hard to write the rules as the warscrolls and basic rules need to be written in such way that they don't refer to the points, as points are additional content for the matched play. Then additional restrictions, such as maximum percentage for summoning, would need to be additional matched play rules. Thus for smaller games some amount of house ruling and gentleman's agreements are sure to be needed. I just hope that not too much.

[Ollie Grimwood]

42 minutes ago, Charles said:

The Nagash trilogy that is set during Warhammer Fantasy  & not within the Age of Sigmar Lore or IP?

WFB is part of the AoS lore. It happened, all of it 

[Killax]

@Jamopower I only agree, which is also still why I like the concept of Open, Narrative and Matched play but continue to be less excited about the way GW approaches it as one giant blend. Because these communities arn't one giant blend.

What's also very possible is that in principle these Core Rules will allow for it and then Generals Handbook 2018 will come with additional rules to set it all 'in balance' for Matched play again. While GW says it's 'free' now it offcourse doesn't mean this will always remain the case.

[Jamopower]

There is always a possibility that summoning is free in normal rules and costs reinforcement points in matched play.  Though I find it quite unlikely considering the previews.

[Ollie Grimwood]

Ive been enjoying the faction focus but and I’m really looking forward to some of the older releases to get theirs, FEC, BCR etc with the exception of Ironjawz it’s one been the newer ones so far. 

[Xasz]

11 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Ive been enjoying the faction focus but and I’m really looking forward to some of the older releases to get theirs, FEC, BCR etc with the exception of Ironjawz it’s one been the newer ones so far. 

It's the opposite for me.

They are just blog posts with very few actual information (which tend to be just snippets at best) on top of reiterating what was already known for weeks or even before AoS 2.0. Always ending with "find out more in the next episode of dragon ball z", into just another episode of Son Goku screaming for 20 minutes.

Only adding fuel to the fire across all boards and unnecessarily confusing the playerbase.

[DanielFM]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

The same ability can be used by different heroes, but i don't think a lone hero can use several time his command ability

The reference to resurrecting several units in the same turn with Endless Legions, which can be used only by the general, suggests otherwise.

[soots]

2 hours ago, ledha said:

The same ability can be used by different heroes, but i don't think a lone hero can use several time his command ability

In the LoN example, it says undead can raise multiple units with endless legions if it has enough command points. This is a command ability, so I'm expecting all of them to be spammable.
 

edit: Daniel wizard above beat me to it

[stratigo]

10 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Stop talking about GW past: it was a totally different company back then (in size and approach). Now it is a big player well in its time.

There are so many new things: magic, magic management points, CP, heros, new shooting, (certainly) new points (GH2018), new armies, new minis... in ONE whole package in just 3 weeks (or so).

So, wait and see. The only thing that I am sure: I'll still be playing miniatures games in 20 years (I like I did in the past 30 y) and it certainly will be GW

GW has made decisions that have made me check out of their products before, and come back only when they've made another change. What makes me grumpy here is that I am only getting less than a year's worth of value out of my army, and that cost/value percentage is not, IMHO high enough for the cost of getting into an army. The summoning change looks... bad to me and a lot of people. I was already on a fence as I have fears about the army I play, but at least I could see where a lot of their decisions were coming from. It'd feel bad to be Beastclaw raidered, but at least the game would still be mostly healthy. The Summoning changes make me fear for the health of the core game.

 

It will be immensely difficult to balance summoning to alternate resources unless you are balancing every army based around summoning. Every non summoning army gets cheaper and every summoning army gets much more expensive, proportionate to the ease of their summoning mechanic (BoK have some difficulty, MoN poop out contagion points, and LoN have no trouble at all.)

 

Balancing any game is very hard. This is adding in a further wrench that has, previously, broken the cogs before. And it isn't a needed one. Blood tithe already had useful abilities that were used. The plague trees were ALREADY extremely useful for nurgle. LoN ALREADY did summoning real well. Every time you set a unit up in the grave, you summoned them. It was a tool to deep strike in large units, and I have seen it used regularly.

Army balance changes a lot these days as GW switches their methods for balancing, and while a year still is too long (in my mind) for an army to be in rough shape (I feel for BCR players) at least every years sees rebalancing. But the summoning seems to be coming baked into the core rules, and that has a chance to break the game for rather longer.

9 hours ago, Gotrek said:

40 skeletons are good, against low armor troops. They are comparable to bloodletters (comes down to who swings first, given equal points for buff bots). And yes, bloodletters can come back too with the bloodtithe or you can spend it to let the bloodletters pile in and attack out of sequence. Of course, you could always just throw a celestant on dracoth with staunch defender and thundershield into the skeletons and giggle as he just tanks them for the entire game.

As for how many units i expect to see in a game? Minimum 6, even beastclaw can pull that off. You can afford to throw some ranged units on a gravesite. Wont keep them from doing their job of shooting and itll make sure death cant use it to summon. Or, hell do what people have done for literally decades, kill the general and dont worry about it.

 

Edit: i keep seeing people saying that free summoning has always been busted and yet i cant recall a time when death dominated the top tables at tournaments in 8th ed fantasy. And as weve seen since the launch of AoS, if something is filth it will be abused worse than the step child of a violent alcoholic.

VC were one of the strongest armies in 8th, in part due to their summoning (More a positional tool there, but positioning won games in 8th).

 

6 units are not enough to stand on 4 gravesites and the objectives of a match. Presuming you somehow don't lose a single one. No one in any game will cover 4 gravesites long enough to matter unless they've already effectively won. I guarantee that. I would be my own money on it. I play a shooting army and I would be wasting units if I tasked them to stand on gravesites, and while they stand there, they die very fast. If I have gotten through the enemy's army to stand on THEIR gravesites, as well as tasked my shooting units, then I have either won the game, or those units are not staying there because they have objectives to grab.

[Karol]

Maybe beastclaws get to summon ice monsters of different time, the colder it gets. turn 1-2 they do nothing, 3 they can summon yetis, and 4+ the bigger stuff starts coming it. And last turn they get something huge coming down.

[Dragobeth]

1 hour ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Me too. Probably something like you get a point for each successful dispel the slann does (not sure on the astrolith guy though) 

Also hope they  slip out a battletomb reboot for seraphon like they did with Khorne

Seraphon Battletome V2 is on my wishlist but I don't see it coming untill 2020-2021 at least since there is 0 rumours about new seraphon (for now, of course)

About Summoning, I think that the "summoning points" (blood tide, whatever are called for slaanesh, etc) are the way to balance summoning, you can make it harder or easier to get those points  and the summoneable units cost more or less points just like you change costs in each GH (ofc it's not the perfect way of balance but it's a way after all)

Its strange that we still don't have a focus on combat by now...

[angrycontra]

Interesting thing to note about command abilities that from nurgle book onwards, there are some command abilities that specifically can only be used if that model is your general. Lord of afflictions is one such model, akhelian king/volturnos has it for idoneth, LoN allegiance command ability, morathi and maybe some others. And this is clearly not some random mistake or just poor wording for new heroes, because lord of blights can use his ability no problem and he is new hero.

[Bloodmaster]

Oh boy, some of you guys really didn't present yourselfs in a good light over the last pages. Much bitternes, much hate..... But I guess its that time of the day again, skys are falling because things change.

Yes summoning isn't tied down to spending points upfornt but on other (intersting) game mechanics. Right now some versions apper a bit OP or broken, but we don't know what can and cannot be summoned in 2.0, just because it can be brought in right now, doesn't mean it has to stay that way. Some mechanics might be tied to other costs, CPs, limited unit choices and so on.

Take the often discussed LoN summoning. You have to have a Hero in range of a graveyard, with no enemies near the graveside, tieing down a hero for the resurrection. You have to spend a CP on it, that might be needed elsewhere, depending on the preasure your opponent ist applyinf. And then the unit will have to come back in 9' radius to the cementry, which might be right across the board from where the action takes place, forcing you to march your "new" unit a longer distance and arriving late or after the actions trhough. It is quite powerfull, but it also hinges on different aspects, that can be counterd or denied by a skilled opponent. And we don't know how many times a unit can be brought back, only once, twice or more?! this as well might be highly resticting, putting a hard brake to some kamikaze strategies, some suggested.

[Gaz Taylor]

1 hour ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

So when do we think this is coming. Heard pre order 16th for release 30th but that seems too far away for my liking

Sounds about right for me as it gives retailers plenty of time to sort out Pre-Orders and the release is supported by the AOS Open Day and White Dwarf the week after. It's possible we will see the rules released earlier as GW have stated that they will be keeping them free and the boxed set will be out at end of June.

We will probably get a better idea next week at the UK Games Expo

[J.J]

Wow, there certainly seems to be a whole lot of jumping-the-gun on this already!

Fact is, we don't really have enough information to make a snap decision on if this will be too strong or not. The community post was rather vague on details and we don't know what to expect in terms of new allegiance abilities and such. It's more than likely that armies without summoning abilities will get something as a counter-balance, either benefits they get for the game (like the tides of death table) or will get benefits akin to summoning, where they have to accrue points to gain unit buffs.

Have some faith in the company! In recent times they have earned that much, especially when they are now involving their play-testers so closely. Yeah, it'll be tricky for them to balance (summoning has been so broken in other systems I've played),  but you have to think - why would they bring it back to matched play if they aren't confident it'll play well?

[Bloodmaster]

1 hour ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

So when do we think this is coming. Heard pre order 16th for release 30th but that seems too far away for my liking

Pre-order on the 9th, as many stores have aos focused events on that date. Release 2 weeks after. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

Shouldn’t skellies/Zombies have kamikaze tactics though? They have no identity, free will and the summoners only see them as a tool or resource. Them being fed into battle getting mowed down then risen again just to be mowed down over and over again seems right on the money for them. 

[Mcthew]

Just now, Bloodmaster said:

Pre-order on the 9th, as many stores have aos focused events on that date. Release 2 weeks after. 

Yeah, this is what the store managers have been told pretty much, matching behaviour around the 40k release last year.

[Bloodmaster]

Just now, Mcthew said:

Yeah, this is what the store managers have been told pretty much, matching behaviour around the 40k release last year.

And would leave the next weekend for imperial knights, throwing the 40k crowd a few breadcrumbs, so that they don't feel neglected with all the aos stuff in q1 and q2 and only custodes and a box for them aside the codexs 

[Killax]

24 minutes ago, J.J said:

But you have to think - why would they bring it back to matched play if they aren't confident it'll play well?

Because sales is what drives Games Workshop first. In the end the game is a byproduct of selling models for them. Not so much the other way around.

No matter how I look at this, I do not think 'free stuff' is a boost to the game. It is a direct way to sell more stuff however.