Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[NurglesFirstChosen]

@BURF1 every post you make is negatively skewed. Given how badly you view the gw team and their products, I’m suprised it holds any interest for you at all. I’d recommend that for your own psychological well-being, that you find a different hobby, because continuous negativity isn’t any good for the soul. 

I apologise to the forum mods for this post, but I am so bored of the relentless negativity. 

[ageofpaddsmar]

12 minutes ago, Charles said:

Great post, and I love my games feeling like the lore. However a unit of animated Skeletons doing 480 attacks in one turn does not feel anything like the lore it feels like designers trying to make a new net list. Same as Nurgle being twice as fast as Khorne is not a lore based decision it’s designed to make a top tier faction.

480 really? I have faced hordes of skeletons many times and its next to impossible to get everyone to strike unless their opponent is stupid

[Charles]

10 minutes ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

480 really? I have faced hordes of skeletons many times and its next to impossible to get everyone to strike unless their opponent is stupid

That is the number they are promoting onthe Warhammer Community Page in the latest faction focus. It’s nothing to do with stupidity of opponent when the game has been designed and promoted to let you do it.

The main point however is that it is unthematic, a dusty animated skeleton should not be a faster more vicious attacker than a Wrathmongers, either based on the lore or looking at the models. However the desire to create new OP units has overtaken the quality of the Intelectual Property in this instance at least.

[Drofnum]

1 minute ago, Charles said:

That is the number they are promoting onthe Warhammer Community Page in the latest faction focus. It’s nothing to do with stupidity of opponent when the game has been designed and promoted to let you do it.

The main point however is that it is unthematic, a dusty animated skeleton should not be a faster more vicious attacker than a Wrathmongers, either based on the lore or looking at the models. However the desire to create new OP units has overtaken the quality of the Intelectual Property in this instance at least.

This is the difference between mathhammer and warhammer though.  Theoretically you could get 480 attacks, but good luck actually getting 40 skeletons into range to put all those attacks out.  If your opponent positions poorly you might get half that number in, if they're smart they will just avoid you and kill the hero's providing the buffs.

[NurglesFirstChosen]

6 minutes ago, Charles said:

That is the number they are promoting onthe Warhammer Community Page in the latest faction focus. It’s nothing to do with stupidity of opponent when the game has been designed and promoted to let you do it.

The main point however is that it is unthematic, a dusty animated skeleton should not be a faster more vicious attacker than a Wrathmongers, either based on the lore or looking at the models. However the desire to create new OP units has overtaken the quality of the Intelectual Property in this instance at least.

I see where you are coming from, but I must say I disagree. Skeletons are animated and slow as you say, but the idea is that their animation is sped up by certain abilities of hero’s. That makes sense to me thematically. Dead bones and flesh moving at all is done by the power of the hero’s minds, so why is it so far fetched that they could also be sped up.

And about nurgle always being slow - that is a misunderstanding. We are patient not slow. Microbes and swarms of flies do not slowly creep into action. 

[ageofpaddsmar]

I agree its unthematic but its very unlikely that you will see 480 attacks

[CaptainNippon]

11 minutes ago, Charles said:

That is the number they are promoting onthe Warhammer Community Page in the latest faction focus. It’s nothing to do with stupidity of opponent when the game has been designed and promoted to let you do it.

The main point however is that it is unthematic, a dusty animated skeleton should not be a faster more vicious attacker than a Wrathmongers, either based on the lore or looking at the models. However the desire to create new OP units has overtaken the quality of the Intelectual Property in this instance at least.

A single skeleton isn't faster and vore vicious by itself. It's the huge horde flooding you with bodies that produces these numbers. That plus multiple heroes and their command abilities and spells who all need to be alive, in position and with Command Points at their disposal.

It sounds great, but in reality it will be hard to pull off in most cases.

[JonnyTheKing]

I think personally the summoning will balance out and not be too much of a problem. To really get the full effect of it you will have to tailor lists to it. So Khorne you would have to build around sacrificing models and taking small units of throwaway units, that takes points up to do that. Nurgle requires a battalion (Expensive at that) and will probably take you about 3 or 4 turns? By that point it may be over since you gimp your initial list for it. Slaanesh you have to play smart to get it to work and Tzeentch, who knows.

The one army that I look at that summoning could be scary for is Seraphon, but honestly I think GW will look at every army and work it out, they've done fairly well over the last year with the rules for Sigmar and I don't see this being a huge issue in the future.

[Gotrek]

2 minutes ago, Charles said:

That is the number they are promoting onthe Warhammer Community Page in the latest faction focus. It’s nothing to do with stupidity of opponent when the game has been designed and promoted to let you do it.

The main point however is that it is unthematic, a dusty animated skeleton should not be a faster more vicious attacker than a Wrathmongers, either based on the lore or looking at the models. However the desire to create new OP units has overtaken the quality of the Intelectual Property in this instance at least.

Youre almost never going to get that many attacks off. Did you see what they had to do to get that? 

1) successfully cast van hels. Easy to cast and easy to dispel with the new unbind range. Also only works for your combat phase

2) stack 2 command abilities ( blood feast and lord of bones) so that's 2 command points so its not something you can do every turn.

3) take a specific artifact which means your hero will only have the -1 to get shot from look out sir

4) assume every skeleton in the unit will get to swing both in normal activation and in the van hels activation. 

---------------

Now, skeletons have from day 1 been able to get 4 attacks a model with the double combat activation, so its not like whats happening in a new or unknown quality. We can argue cinematics till we die of old age (I'd love to hear how an arrow or bullet can hurt something with no organs  and how an skeleton is as easy to kill as a living grot) but at the end of the day gameplay needs to trump cinematics. 

[papary]

So when do we think release is? Announced Sunday For a two week pre order, out on the 9th?

[Austin]

5 minutes ago, papary said:

So when do we think release is? Announced Sunday For a two week pre order, out on the 9th?

Faeit 212 is saying that Imperial Knights are preorder on the 2d so I sort of doubt that will be AoS 2 as well. 

[AthlorianStoners]

1 hour ago, Gotrek said:

In life, pessimism is always better because when people and the world live down to your expectations it isnt as disappointing.  However, i do think burf is taking it to an extreme

Probably getting off topic, but I totally disagree with that philosophy. Having a negative outlook on life as a barrier or defence mechanism also closes you off. Anyways, off topic so I’ll leave it there  

1 hour ago, smucreo said:

@AthlorianStoners well baseless optimism leads to disappointment, that's what I was referring to. I may have worded my thoughts badly though, as I do think spouting toxic messages online is the ultimate conversation killer and ultimately leaves everyone feeling worse. As you said being cautiosly optimistic is the best course of action imo, since we all love this game and are hoping for the best with these new changes but we need to be careful not to overhype some stuff.

Yeah exactly. I’m no advocate for blind optimism, but being tentatively hopeful never hurt anyone. It’s just a game after all, let’s see where it goes  

[GeneralZero]

It is a complete comunication black hole actually. We have absolutely no idea about IK and AoS 2 release dates.

And nothing this weekend officialy anounced ATM

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

I am SURE all of us will still enjoy this game after june

I doubt that.

It is going to be the standard edition change rollercoaster that you see in just about every tabletop game.  Some people will absolutely love the new edition.  Some people will completely detest it and possibly quit.  And most likely a majority of people will fall into the middle.

I completely agree with the wait and see approach though.  We can speculate and prognosticate about the snippets GW is showing to drive up hype, but none of us can draw very many meaningful conclusions since we lack a full picture.

As far as optimism - I am optimistic but not blindly so.  I am optimistic because over the last couple of years GW has been steadily moving in a direction that I approve of.  It’s not all roses, but on the whole it is positive for me. But I will make final judgement once I see the how the new edition rules and generals handbook pan out.  But I would prefer to be optimistic because I enjoy the game and would like for it to succeed.

[Ben]

@Burf and @BURF1 have been banned. 

I don’t like to keep posting that I am having to ban people. This is exciting times for Warhammer so please try and focus on that rather than arguing about possibilities and speculation. 

[Arkiham]

7 minutes ago, Ben said:

@Burf and @BURF1 have been banned. 

I don’t like to keep posting that I am having to ban people. This is exciting times for Warhammer so please try and focus on that rather than arguing about possibilities and speculation. 

agreed it is rather depressing that the internet as a whole is having a massive break down over this, games workshop are doing us a favour by letting us know whats happening. 

i expected better from members of tga, we have been quite cool an calm in all previous major changes.

 

if this is going to be the response to games-workshop  including the community i think in future id prefer they did not and just surprised everyone with it. 

i admit i have made the odd speculative comment in groups on how something sounds very strong, but always tried to keep it a calm and neutral comment 

[stratigo]

5 hours ago, Mayple said:

Ah. Yes, if we assume human-speed infantry, which I would be very surprised seeing charged headlong into a blob of skelletons to begin with. You'd probably be looking at something more along the lines of a hard-hitting hammer unit, which tend to be capable of at least a bit more speed than that. Because if you're not going to hit them hard, you're better of not hitting them at all. Skelletons are sooo slow. It will take them all game just to cross a map, allowing their opponent to dictate how, when, and where any engagement take place.

Anyway, you get the general idea. Skelletons, specifically, coming back is the least scary thing that could happen, and there are a bunch of ways of working around it

40 skeletons is, arguably, the strongest battle line in the game. They are very good. If, after a lot of investment that isn’t going at, say, prince vordrai, they just come back, that is immensely strong. And anyone saying “oh just loiter 4 units next to some grave sites” I honestly have to wonder if they play this game. How many units do you think people have? Why do you think it’s a good idea to detail them on doing nothing when, you know, there are objectives. 

 

I’ve been playing gw games for quite a long time. Do people not remember how awful it was to play against demons in 7th 40k. I want to play a 2000 point game.  Not a 2000 vs 2500 or 3000

This is going to make summon armies very strong, and if you consider gw’s history of it, almost certainly too strong  

 

[Mayple]

I'm really hyped about the daily snippets thing they're doing. Got me coming back every day to see what's new, mentally invested even when I'm not doing that. Pretty solid move on GW's part

I want to throw in two cents on the small optimism/pessimism philosophical discussion that popped up; I tend to see optimism as something that can, in the face of failure, bring one down - whilst pessimism brings -others- down, even if one succeeds. Food for thought.

[GeneralZero]

Stop talking about GW past: it was a totally different company back then (in size and approach). Now it is a big player well in its time.

There are so many new things: magic, magic management points, CP, heros, new shooting, (certainly) new points (GH2018), new armies, new minis... in ONE whole package in just 3 weeks (or so).

So, wait and see. The only thing that I am sure: I'll still be playing miniatures games in 20 years (I like I did in the past 30 y) and it certainly will be GW

[DanielFM]

2 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

So, wait and see. The only thing that I am sure: I'll still be playing miniatures games in 20 years (I like I did in the past 30 y) and it certainly will be GW

I have played 3 WHFB and 5 40k editions. I still play GW games. Yet, that doesn't mean each edition was as good as the others. I liked ones and I hated others.

I loved AoS balance for its deceptive simplicity and relative balance. And I can fear GW will mess it up as they have done before.

[novakai]

I think it best to accept that there going to be Imbalanced thing when AoS 2.0 comes out, since It hard to get things totally right and smoothly at launch and oversight do happen especially when your adding two armies and many other changes to unit and rules. As long as it just minor Imbalance or any major problems get FAQ quickly I be happy.

[GeneralZero]

ATM, what GW told us:

- there will be (many) points chages in armies (left over mostly)

- CP: 1 more for bataillon, but is it per turn or what? Is it the only way to get them?

- magic: a total new thing with resource management

- heros: more influence in tactic/game

- shooting: some restrictions

- look out sir! (WTF?)

- new army SCE

- new nighthaunt

- summoning: new approach, free summoned units but what does it cost? resource management again per army style

- same game name (LOL)

- you can still use your minis

 

Lets sum it up: we just don't know sh*t about this new game. We don't know the efficiency of armies and it'll be enjoyable to find out except for those ultra competitors

I find it really refreshing. I'll still use SCE and Death and I'm super happy to see that I'll get double bonus! (efficiency and new mini/armies for me)

 

 

[Gotrek]

14 hours ago, stratigo said:

40 skeletons is, arguably, the strongest battle line in the game. They are very good. If, after a lot of investment that isn’t going at, say, prince vordrai, they just come back, that is immensely strong. And anyone saying “oh just loiter 4 units next to some grave sites” I honestly have to wonder if they play this game. How many units do you think people have? Why do you think it’s a good idea to detail them on doing nothing when, you know, there are objectives. 

 

I’ve been playing gw games for quite a long time. Do people not remember how awful it was to play against demons in 7th 40k. I want to play a 2000 point game.  Not a 2000 vs 2500 or 3000

This is going to make summon armies very strong, and if you consider gw’s history of it, almost certainly too strong  

 

40 skeletons are good, against low armor troops. They are comparable to bloodletters (comes down to who swings first, given equal points for buff bots). And yes, bloodletters can come back too with the bloodtithe or you can spend it to let the bloodletters pile in and attack out of sequence. Of course, you could always just throw a celestant on dracoth with staunch defender and thundershield into the skeletons and giggle as he just tanks them for the entire game.

As for how many units i expect to see in a game? Minimum 6, even beastclaw can pull that off. You can afford to throw some ranged units on a gravesite. Wont keep them from doing their job of shooting and itll make sure death cant use it to summon. Or, hell do what people have done for literally decades, kill the general and dont worry about it.

 

Edit: i keep seeing people saying that free summoning has always been busted and yet i cant recall a time when death dominated the top tables at tournaments in 8th ed fantasy. 

 

+++ Mod Edit +++

Reviewing last few posts and I've removed a comment from here as it was not appropriate for this forum

[ledha]

14 hours ago, Gotrek said:

40 skeletons are good, against low armor troops. They are comparable to bloodletters (comes down to who swings first, given equal points for buff bots). And yes, bloodletters can come back too with the bloodtithe or you can spend it to let the bloodletters pile in and attack out of sequence. Of course, you could always just throw a celestant on dracoth with staunch defender and thundershield into the skeletons and giggle as he just tanks them for the entire game.

As for how many units i expect to see in a game? Minimum 6, even beastclaw can pull that off. You can afford to throw some ranged units on a gravesite. Wont keep them from doing their job of shooting and itll make sure death cant use it to summon. Or, hell do what people have done for literally decades, kill the general and dont worry about it.

 

Edit: i keep seeing people saying that free summoning has always been busted and yet i cant recall a time when death dominated the top tables at tournaments in 8th ed fantasy. 

Main difference between skellies and bloodletters is that skellies are cheaper, more resilient (because of number of wound, comparable save and the insane death regeneration), have easier time to attack (25mm base vs 32) and basically much more damaging against everything that doesn't have a crazy armor. Both use support, but bloodletters are literally bad without the ultra-important bloodsecrators, while skellies can still be a threat without a necromancer behind them.

And please, no one ever use the 8th blood tithe level, because keeping those 8 pts mean never use any during the whole game and the previous rank are so useful (the attack out of sequence as you said, as well as the auto-unbind) that you can't not use them. And even if you do, you'll maybe be able to use this 8th blood tithe level one time ine the game

And why use the 8th level when you can use the 7th who is much more powerful ?

And the look out sir will make death generals harder to snipe out. A footlocking hero with the right item will stand with a -3 to hit at range

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Can I ask you all to please pause and think about your replies. I can understand some of your thoughts and reactions but some of the comments in this thread have been reactive, provoking, and generally not pleasant.

This forum has prided itself on being a nice place to visit to discuss toy soldiers and I want it to stay that way as I’m sure many of you do. So again please pause and think about your replies.

Cheers