Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I don't see the problem honestly. Just like how if you want spells you'll tend to choose tzeentch or nagash, or if you like melee combat you'll go ironjawz or daughter of khaine?

I should clarify, I don't see it as a problem but rather I'm confused at the direction. Due to their imbalance, they seem to be designed for narrative play, but there's nothing stopping you taking it in matched play. I'm mostly curious to see if they'll be allowed in tournaments.  

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, Infeston said:

@Xasz I missed this too. You are right. I haven't read into the rules that much. But now I looked the rules up again and sadly have to confirm that you are correct.

Allies now have two restrictions:

1. You can only spend 200,400 and 500 points into allies

2. Only 1/4 of your units can be allies. 

This really sucks for BCR again, because I cannot include as many wizards as I wanted to before. So in most games I can only include 1 ally or two allies, where I could have included 3-5 allies before. Or I take multiple small units of Sabretusks instead. This is really sad. The more I find out about this edition, the more I dislike it.  I still like the Endless Spells, the new models and the narrative. But there are other things which I don't like.

It would have been cool if it was one way or another. But now that both kind of restrictions apply I don't really like it.

I think the point restrictions are enough. Damn. I was so happy that I could now ally in a fungoid-cave shaman and a Firebelly for my BCR army at 1000 points. But I propably won't be able to get two wizards into the army, because of the restrictions. 

Just putting this out there, but you can totally load up on Fungoid Cave Shamans.  He is not an Ally. 

If you read the MalPo FAQ, they say he can be included in any army with the Destruction keyword.  And that he counts against your Allies points allowance in Matched Play.  At no point do they say that he is an Ally, or can be allied into any Destruction army - in fact, they go to extreme lengths to avoid calling him an Ally (while making him perform in an identical way to one).

So go for it, include 5x Cave Shamans with your 400 points Allies allowance.  You now have a total of zero Allied units, well below your 1 in 4 allowed!

[PlasticCraic]

4 hours ago, Aryann said:

I just wonder what would be Destruction players' reaction if GW remade most of these smashin and bashin factions into you know, something smarter. It might be hard to give Destruction races more spotlight in the main story if they just want to fight for the reason of fighting. I admit I haven't read Ironjawz battletome but I did read Bonesplitterz and there was no starting point for big campaign. So in order for them to lead the story like Nagash does they need to be more developed, complicated. Or at least have a leader that knows what he's doing. It would be far more interesting then "and there was a great waaagh lead by Big Bad Badass Warboss". 

That's true, but at the same time it's GW's job to write that and make it interesting.  It was very dispiriting to listen to the Phil Kelly episode of Stormcast, where he talked about how awesome Summoning is going to be for Death, Chaos and Order (literally no mention of Destruction).  And then discussed at length how strong Death, Chaos and Order are in the lore (literally no mention of Destruction).  A lot of the most beloved WHFB characters were Destruction characters, so there really is no reason why GW couldn't come up with compelling stories, characters and motivation from a Destruction point of view.

As mentioned above the Battletome lore has been excellent so far.  Another example off the top of my head is the Citycrusher Gargants thread in the Destruction forum, where I have suggested a motivation for that conceptual faction that could certainly be expanded to a wider context:

 

[Karol]

7 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

While I would not turn down flying sharks, Destruction doesn’t really raid they pillage.

It is a matter of semanthics here. They take stuff, they eat stuff and people, and they burn stuff. Just because destruction warbands sometimes do it in a different order of things, then lets say wanderers or fishelfs, is of little concern to the people being raided or pillaged.

[heywoah_twitch]

58 minutes ago, Karol said:

It is a matter of semanthics here. They take stuff, they eat stuff and people, and they burn stuff. Just because destruction warbands sometimes do it in a different order of things, then lets say wanderers or fishelfs, is of little concern to the people being raided or pillaged.

Grand Alliances have some similar actions and philosophies, but those are really minor and pale next to the main true reason you get sorted into the GA you do:

It's all about your Gods, and it really starts and ends there.

Gorkamorka? Destruction.

Chaos? Chaos.

Nagash/Death Gods/Figures? Death.

Random, bursting-at-the-seams grab bag of everyone else whose massively bloated size has long since become problematic? Order.

[Requete]

40 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Grand Alliances have some similar actions and philosophies, but those are really minor and pale next to the main true reason you get sorted into the GA you do:

It's all about your Gods, and it really starts and ends there.

Gorkamorka? Destruction.

Chaos? Chaos.

Nagash/Death Gods/Figures? Death.

Random, bursting-at-the-seams grab bag of everyone else whose massively bloated size has long since become problematic? Order.

Except that you don't have a clear concept of order.

Destruction: wants to break your things.

Chaos: wants to corrupt/possess your things.

Death: wants to haunt/kill your things.

Order: wants everyone to leave their things alone.

The "Order" faction is about people who want to have a civilization (i.e. towns and roads and such). Most would not get along with one another (just like in the real world), except that when a force comes along that threatens the very ability to have order, they tend to band together (sometimes also like this in the real world). It has less to do with gods and more to do with common interests.

 

[Envyus]

I hope that Malekith/Malerion. Starts his own GA when they decide to focus on him. Rather then trying to fit him in with the rest. 

[Jamopower]

10 hours ago, Enoby said:

Ah right, that makes sense - I was wondering if you meant magic generally, or just for this army. Hopefully Slaanesh becomes more magically adept when the Battletome is released. Did you try endless spells?

No, but I don't see the endless spells making the things any better if you don't have a caster with good bonus to casting as they are so hard to cast and most of them have quite limited effect compared to the price you have to pay. I'd say that any army without at least a +1 bonus, preferably +2 or better, to cast and a good spell lore won't do much with casting (and I had +1 bonus). Wizards are of course nice to have for unbinding and scenario purposes, just don't rely too much on the magic part.

[PlasticCraic]

33 minutes ago, Requete said:

Except that you don't have a clear concept of order.

Destruction: wants to break your things.

Chaos: wants to corrupt/possess your things.

Death: wants to haunt/kill your things.

Order: wants everyone to leave their things alone.

The "Order" faction is about people who want to have a civilization (i.e. towns and roads and such). Most would not get along with one another (just like in the real world), except that when a force comes along that threatens the very ability to have order, they tend to band together (sometimes also like this in the real world). It has less to do with gods and more to do with common interests.

 

Or an alternative view is -

Order: Wants to take your things , by force if necessary.

"Empire builders, colonists and settlers" doesn't sound like it's all about living in peace and harmony.  It sounds a lot like stealing the land and resources of the Realms, and displacing or murdering the indiginous races to achieve that.  They're all about the Lebensraum.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/12/your-intro-to-the-mortal-realms-may-12gw-homepage-post-4/

[AsraiR]

Despite my butcher not arriving until turn three I had no bother casting Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws. Though admittedly at that stage in the game it was a tad underwhelming.

[ZaelART]

12 hours ago, Aryann said:

I just wonder what would be Destruction players' reaction if GW remade most of these smashin and bashin factions into you know, something smarter. It might be hard to give Destruction races more spotlight in the main story if they just want to fight for the reason of fighting. I admit I haven't read Ironjawz battletome but I did read Bonesplitterz and there was no starting point for big campaign. So in order for them to lead the story like Nagash does they need to be more developed, complicated. Or at least have a leader that knows what he's doing. It would be far more interesting then "and there was a great waaagh lead by Big Bad Badass Warboss". 

I think they're interesting enough just being... destruction. As the other factions vie for dominance, expand their territories and build ever larger cities, the green boyz desire for destruction swells into an almighty waaaggghhh that will crash upon civilisation like a great green tsunami. Total force of nature. Rinse and repeat. Sigmar, Archaon and Nagash are left twiddling their thumbs and picking up sticks trying to rebuild... then when they do: waaaaaaagggghhhh time again. I see them as being able to stop any one faction from achieving total dominance. Maybe when it comes round to their major story-line, it'll be building up to the waaggghh to end all waaaggghhs, an overwhelming destructive force threatening to destroy every last thread of civilisation.

[ZaelART]

2 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Or an alternative view is -

Order: Wants to take your things , by force if necessary.

"Empire builders, colonists and settlers" doesn't sound like it's all about living in peace and harmony.  It sounds a lot like stealing the land and resources of the Realms, and displacing or murdering the indiginous races to achieve that.  They're all about the Lebensraum.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/12/your-intro-to-the-mortal-realms-may-12gw-homepage-post-4/

Totally. When it comes to the Soul Wars, they're literally thieves... *literally* thieves.

There is nothing harmonious about order. They're like an iPhone, super-fancy, but what has the world been put through to build that ******?

[ZaelART]

13 hours ago, bsharitt said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/07/01/coming-soon-great-new-ways-to-get-started/

Looks like GW is going to keep doing their 3 tiered starter set thing, which I'm happy to see. Though now instead of buying all the wave 1 easy to build kits, I would have waited and got the little box set(would have saved me $20 if pricing sticks with First Strike). Tempest of Souls is would typically be a nice boost to starter set units, but given the weird sizes of some of the units(evocators and grimghast reapers) and the starter set options(glaivewraith stalker drummer), individual boxes might be better.

Finanlly for the old starter set, they're doing what I wish they'd do for all their Starter Set forces early on instead of when  they're discontinued and each side is now it's on start collecting.  Stormcast one is kind of meh, but the blood bound one looks nice if you want to do mortal khorne.

This is kind of terrible.

The middle box does nothing to help correct unit sizes.

Grimghast Reapers have a minimum matched play size of 10 - with the core set and medium starter box you get 8 (2 of which are bells).

Glavewraith Stalkers have a minimum unit size of 4 - buying all the starter boxes would give you 14 (1 drum).

It just doesn't make sense.

[GeneralZero]

37 minutes ago, ZaelART said:

This is kind of terrible.

The middle box does nothing to help correct unit sizes.

Grimghast Reapers have a minimum matched play size of 10 - with the core set and medium starter box you get 8 (2 of which are bells).

Glavewraith Stalkers have a minimum unit size of 4 - buying all the starter boxes would give you 14 (1 drum).

It just doesn't make sense.

This makes perfect sense on the GW point of view for selling more plastic. But yes, it sux... Ideally, you have to be 2 friends players and split a bit the units.

[hughwyeth]

2 hours ago, ZaelART said:

This is kind of terrible.

The middle box does nothing to help correct unit sizes.

Grimghast Reapers have a minimum matched play size of 10 - with the core set and medium starter box you get 8 (2 of which are bells).

Glavewraith Stalkers have a minimum unit size of 4 - buying all the starter boxes would give you 14 (1 drum).

It just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense- AoS is not only about matched play.  A lot of people don't play matched play, so there are no minimum unit sizes. In fact nothing in the box references matched play. There's no points mentioned in any of the books for example. 

[Aeryenn]

I have one more idea for a Destruction heavy plot. Or at least greenskinz. Let's say that at some point one side, be it Order, Death or Chaos creates a ritual that is supposed to give them an edge over others. However they did not foresee a side effect of the ritual - it hurts/drives crazy/allures all the greenskinz who need to stop it/take over it. There you go. I can imagine Tyrion/Sigmar/Nagash to cast it and cause an invasion on their lands by united greenskinz / new Destruction faction. So the incentive for Destruction to play a grand role doesn't even have to come from them. You just need somebody to pi ss them off. ☺️ 

[ZaelART]

25 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

It makes perfect sense- AoS is not only about matched play.  A lot of people don't play matched play, so there are no minimum unit sizes. In fact nothing in the box references matched play. There's no points mentioned in any of the books for example. 

Sure, AoS is not only about matched play. I completely agree. But what part of having 4 Grimghast Reapers and 5 Glavewraith Stalkers improves the play experience for narrative and open players? I don't think it makes a difference. Therefore I would have expected GW to have included minimum unit sizes based on matched play unit profiles, thus making narrative, open AND matched play players happy. There's literally no reason for them not to have changed one Glavewraith Stalker into a Grimghast Reaper, they just take the same lump of plastic and use it to make something else - no change in cost, but a product that is usable out of the box for ALL their players. As it stands, I firmly believe that they have made a mistake. I'm not trying to detract from the pure cool-ness of the new stuff, everything is still really cool and awesome, but the new medium sized box was their opportunity to correct their mistake, and unfortunately they did not take that opportunity. It's just something that starts the old cynicism cogs whirring again.

Basically, they could have made a great product for ALL of their players. As it stands, it's a great product for 2/3, and a decent one for 1/3. I'm not going to say it's  bad, it just *could* have been great.

[hughwyeth]

1 hour ago, ZaelART said:

Sure, AoS is not only about matched play. I completely agree. But what part of having 4 Grimghast Reapers and 5 Glavewraith Stalkers improves the play experience for narrative and open players? I don't think it makes a difference. Therefore I would have expected GW to have included minimum unit sizes based on matched play unit profiles, thus making narrative, open AND matched play players happy. There's literally no reason for them not to have changed one Glavewraith Stalker into a Grimghast Reaper, they just take the same lump of plastic and use it to make something else - no change in cost, but a product that is usable out of the box for ALL their players. As it stands, I firmly believe that they have made a mistake. I'm not trying to detract from the pure cool-ness of the new stuff, everything is still really cool and awesome, but the new medium sized box was their opportunity to correct their mistake, and unfortunately they did not take that opportunity. It's just something that starts the old cynicism cogs whirring again.

Basically, they could have made a great product for ALL of their players. As it stands, it's a great product for 2/3, and a decent one for 1/3. I'm not going to say it's  bad, it just *could* have been great.

I actually agree with you- I only played matched (though sometimes narrative/open with points)- so full units would be nicer for me- I'll have to top them up with the ETB kits, which is annoying as those come with sculpted bases which won't fit with the ones in the soul war box. I just wanted to point out that TGA is pretty much 100% matched play and competitive focused, but many don't do that. I'm not trying to defend GW from criticism either, it's healthy for us to not be 100% fanboys all the time!

[stratigo]

5 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

I actually agree with you- I only played matched (though sometimes narrative/open with points)- so full units would be nicer for me- I'll have to top them up with the ETB kits, which is annoying as those come with sculpted bases which won't fit with the ones in the soul war box. I just wanted to point out that TGA is pretty much 100% matched play and competitive focused, but many don't do that. I'm not trying to defend GW from criticism either, it's healthy for us to not be 100% fanboys all the time!

I bet you 90 percent of players play matched play points exclusively

 

the starter unit sizes show either a lack of foresight, a lack of communication, or a lack of morals. None of these are good things

[bsharitt]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

I bet you 90 percent of players play matched play points exclusively

 

the starter unit sizes show either a lack of foresight, a lack of communication, or a lack of morals. None of these are good things

Even if I'm playing fairly open play, I'll still use points as a balancing factor(ignoring battleline/behmoth/leader restrictions)  for just about any game except carefully crafted narrative games where there's something is going on that army balance doesn't matter.

[Chikout]

4 hours ago, stratigo said:

I bet you 90 percent of players play matched play points exclusively

 

the starter unit sizes show either a lack of foresight, a lack of communication, or a lack of morals. None of these are good things

I am curious why you and so many others are reluctant to use the points that come in the box. You have points directly from GW for the majority of the reduced size units. 

I understand that these might not be accepted by some TOs, but for the majority of other games they should be fine.

I still think GW could fix the problem just by making these points more official.

[Yoshiya]

On 7/2/2018 at 12:58 AM, Infeston said:

Jeah. At the moment I am also questioning a bit if the rumored Moonclan release will ever happen. 

At the moment Soul Wars feels for me like: Look at all these factions fighting for souls and they all have abilities which have something to do with souls. Sigmar wants get these SOULS, because he needs them for the reforging of the Stormcast and Nagash is pissed, because Sigmar steals his SOULS and wants to claim them for himself. Also Chaos wants to claim those SOULS or corrupt people, because otherwise they would join the ranks of Sigmar or Death. 

Did we forget someone? Oh. Jeah.... Destruction! Jeah. They join the fight, because they like bashing things and we don't need a bigger motive for them to be around. We at GW think Destruction doesn't need an underlying motivation for this expansion or any future expansion, because the only reason they live is, because they want to fight. So we don't have a reason to flesh things out for Destruction.

I mean I get that this a big part of Destruction that they always want to fight and seek for battles. But sometimes I would also wish for more backround story or some other motivations for fighting. Why can't Destruction also have a reason to collect souls?

Maybe some Grots invented some ritual to collect all those souls and transform them into WAAAAGH! energy. Or maybe they try to collect as many souls as they can so that they can manifest Gorkamorka again to lead the biggest WAAAAGH! ever. 

For me it feels that everyone has a bigger motive or role in this Soul War, except Destruction. We seem more like a nuisence in this battle, rather than serious threat. It more like "Go forth, my Stormcast! Fight Nagash's evil forces! Oh...what? Oh nooo... There are those Destruction guys again. They are so annoying! We should remove them from the battlefield and then focus on the more important battle..."

We are the "Team Rocket" of AoS. We sometimes appear to fight the good guys, but in the end we always get beaten up and run away!"

This is just my personal opinion, but I often feel this way as a Destruction player lore-wise. 

Bonesplitterz were the easiest way in my opinion. They go round going after beast spirits believing it makes them stronger. Only need a very small change to turn it from their belief making the spirits have power to it actually being the souls of the beasts they are trapping. Nagash annoyed that all his big juicy beast ghosts are being trapped in crude fetishes sends a host after them and it becomes a race to see who can get the big beast souls first. Seeing the great fun the bonesplitterz are having racing ghosts for the giant beasts the other orruks join in and numerous beast hunting waaaghs start forming across the realms.

Sure it's not the most compelling tale but it's enough to make the actions of the orruks have a bit more weight in an edition not focused on them and would at least let destruction players feel like they haven't  been forgotten. Unfortunately how to get the ogors in besides giant beasts making for good eats is a bit harder...

[hughwyeth]

13 hours ago, stratigo said:

I bet you 90 percent of players play matched play points exclusively

 

the starter unit sizes show either a lack of foresight, a lack of communication, or a lack of morals. None of these are good things

I don't think it's any of those. GW wants to make money like all companies. All their models are hideously expensive. The Soul Wars box is actually relatively good value, but if you told someone "I just spent £95 on a hardback book and 55 models" they'd think you're insane. They made the box so someone buying it could have some enjoyable games with it and get them hooked. They undersized the units so you'd have to buy more models to fill them out for matched play. It's not immoral, it's capitalism. I don't get why the Soul Wars situation is bad, but £85 for a Great Unclean One, consisting of two plastic sprues is fine. 

[AverageBoss]

3 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

I don't think it's any of those. GW wants to make money like all companies. All their models are hideously expensive. The Soul Wars box is actually relatively good value, but if you told someone "I just spent £95 on a hardback book and 55 models" they'd think you're insane. They made the box so someone buying it could have some enjoyable games with it and get them hooked. They undersized the units so you'd have to buy more models to fill them out for matched play. It's not immoral, it's capitalism. I don't get why the Soul Wars situation is bad, but £85 for a Great Unclean One, consisting of two plastic sprues is fine. 

The thing is they have not provided a way to fill out those units. You can more or less fix up the Sequitors with their easy build box, though you will have a very sub optimal weapon load out (which is okay given they are easy build models, plus that is more to do with their rules changing between Soul Wars and the battletome), and you will have to count a prime as a normal guy, and you will have 1 model left over. The Castigator box fixes nothing, as it comes with 3 (a full unit), you are forever stuck with 2 extra models, 1 short of a functioning unit. Likewise with the Stalkers, you just have an extra you will never be able to do anything with. Reapers and Evocators don't even have easy build options. That means people are either turning to 3rd parties to do so, or simply passing on the box to wait for full kits.

[Sonnenspeer]

love this guy