Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[Jamopower]

Those skink spells are nice, but it might be worth more to use the slann for summoning and cast those spells with the skinks. Which can of course also be summoned... That also leaves the slann be able to use the double teleport trait, which is great. 

[Brightstar]

On 5/28/2018 at 12:46 PM, Thomas Lyons said:

It certainly would be more attractive.  But, I think you missed my point.  Most people who are playing Deepkin  have considered the Allopex a badly costed unit and one that they will only include because they like the model or are required to by a battalion.  There is irony in the fact that the Allopex still comes out as the better buy even after the Gunhauler recosting.  That is what is so hilarious. 

I had no idea the allopex is "badly costed" in the eyes of some players, so I missed the joke, lol. I know this isnt the place to really debate it either, but I am assuming it is its value compared to the value of taking unit x instead. Because when I comparw it to a unit of liberators at 100p, it deals more damage, faster move, has range better to hit values all around, it looks a little cheap.

But you did, in a way, back up what I was saying - the perceived value does not match a players expectation to invest in the unit. Is that the fault of the allopex being too expensive though or the other units being too undercostsed? Which again comes down to balancing imtrinsically instead of through points. Whic is what i think would be more beneficial to a new edition than points adjustments.

The new slaan summoning eules look fun. I will be curious to see how it plays out on the tabletop. AOS os quickly getting a whole resource management system added to ot with CP and all these summoning points.   It will certainly add a lot of new dimensions to the game. 

It would be cool if they gave armies ways to pull points out of summoning pools.

[Greasygeek]

2 hours ago, calcysimon said:

As a nurgle player I am judging the same thing, to summon something I need many turns, I am really afraid of these first-second turn summons but I hope they will not be too overpowered

Yeah I am kinda concerned about this too. Trying not to judge before we have the full picture but lately the many previews and faction focuses has me kinda stressed about the feel of the game. At first I were glad about the rules for LoN and Nurgle summoning as these came at an expensive prize but looking at the Seraphon summoning rules it seem very easy for them to spam summoning. 

[PJetski]

Slanns have to be your general and they have to give up casting 2 spells to summon 10 skinks... I wouldnt call that "spamming" 

If you kill the Slann all the summoning stops immediately

Spending 1 command point to resurrect 40 skeletons every turn seems far more like spam to me

[Ryan Taylor]

11 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Spending 1 command point to resurrect 40 skeletons every turn seems far more like spam to me

Unless you kill the general right? Kill the general and the summoning stops immediately. Same thing. 

[Ar-Pharazôn]

6 minutes ago, Ryan Taylor said:

Unless you kill the general right? Kill the general and the summoning stops immediately. Same thing. 

But to kill the general you have to consider Look Out Sir. So many new dimensions to the game. 

[Christopher Rowe]

Well, even if Seraphon turn out to be excellent at Summoning, even if they, in fact, turn out to be better at it than some other factions, what of it? It fits the lore for one thing, but even more importantly, to use a lot of Summoning precludes the use of a lot of spells. And more than that, I'm sure that pretty much every faction will excel at some aspect or another, and that we'll all have to make possibly tough choices to make maximum utility of that aspect. Legions of Nagash will probably be phenomenal spellcasters. Ironjawz will probably be ferocious in close combat. And so on.

[PJetski]

28 minutes ago, Ryan Taylor said:

Unless you kill the general right? Kill the general and the summoning stops immediately. Same thing. 

That's a fair point, but I think the opportunity cost of 1 command point is a lot lower than sacrificing multiple spells from your best wizard.

I'm more concerned about how other factions are going to be able to compete against armies with free units... GW doesn't have the best history of balancing a game with free summons.

[daedalus81]

12 minutes ago, PJetski said:

That's a fair point, but I think the opportunity cost of 1 command point is a lot lower than sacrificing multiple spells from your best wizard.

I'm more concerned about how other factions are going to be able to compete against armies with free units... GW doesn't have the best history of balancing a game with free summons.

There's still a balance there.

To summon 40 skeletons you have to take and lose 40 skeletons.  You're not losing 40 skeletons per turn.  They're tied to a grave site, too.  There's a lot more to this than we can analyze currently.

That GW has guided costs for certain levels of units is a good indication that there is caution in the mechanic.

I'm more concerned about endless spells forcing the hand of opponents, but i'm pretty sure that will come out fine, too.

[Elmir]

Yeah, but in the undead way of "summoning" you are essentially never increasing your army past it's starting point... Some armies seem to be able to reliable crank it up above their starting costs, like FEC, seraphon and even Sylvaneth now. 

I wasn't too worried about it for FEC, as that's generally a very weak army. Seraphon are always a strong contender for top tables however... And this limitation of summoning points doesn't seem too limiting. Giving up casting with a Slan for a turn so he can get 9 celestial points along with the bonus of an astrolith bearer means you can go quite a bit above starting size...

Oh well, time will tell how this turns out. 

[Sleboda]

47 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

There's a lot more to this than we can analyze currently.

Agreed.

It's never, as in ever, a productive exercise to compare across armies. It's even less useful when we don't even have the full rules yet. 

Fun, maybe, but not useful. ?

[Aeon]

Don’t forget that the summoned units come up wholly within 12” of a Slaan and more than 9” from enemy models.

Fast moving chaff will be very useful in stopping Sunmoning (and not just for Seraphon.)

[Chikout]

Lots of interesting stuff to digest. It is interesting that people are most worried about legions of Nagash. It seems the most preventable. 1- don't kill the whole unit, tarpit it instead, 2, hang around near gravesites, 3 kill the general. 

Overall it looks like Flesh Eater Courts have the best summoning which is fitting as summoning is the one thing they do well. Sylvaneth is pretty good as there is nothing you can do to stop Alarielle's summons. The others all rely on accruing points, which are either detrimental to the summoner (Seraphon)  or can be minimised by the other player. There will probably be a few things that are over powered but there always are in AoS. Hopefully the playtesting has kept these to a minimum. 

[LLV]

8 hours ago, S133arcanite said:

How will Tzeentch summon?

 

I'm hoping amount of spells successfully cast e.g 10 spells cast to summon a unit of horrors

I’ve heard spells cast accumulates points

[Aeon]

Alarielle's once per game summoning has to be done wholly within 9" of her and outside 9" of enemy models - so you could stop her summoning if you got close enough to her.

Also bear in mind; alot of these summoning abilities *dont* have the "If you cant place down a model then it is slain" section alot of other stuff has; which mean that if you cant fit the whole unit down due to terrain like buildings or enemys; then you cant put down any models of the unit.

Defeating summoning is going to be all about identifying the models that can summon; then using model placement to deny them the ability.

Its like tactics

[Lemondish]

28 minutes ago, Aeon said:

Alarielle's once per game summoning has to be done wholly within 9" of her and outside 9" of enemy models - so you could stop her summoning if you got close enough to her.

Also bear in mind; alot of these summoning abilities *dont* have the "If you cant place down a model then it is slain" section alot of other stuff has; which mean that if you cant fit the whole unit down due to terrain like buildings or enemys; then you cant put down any models of the unit.

Defeating summoning is going to be all about identifying the models that can summon; then using model placement to deny them the ability.

Its like tactics

Are you sure that's how it would work? I took it as meaning the entire unit must be able to be placed 9" away from enemies and wholly within 9" or it can't be summoned at all. 

[Gotrek]

12 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Are you sure that's how it would work? I took it as meaning the entire unit must be able to be placed 9" away from enemies and wholly within 9" or it can't be summoned at all. 

That...thats literally what he said... if the summoned unit cant fit wholly within X distance of the summoner and Y away from enemies you cant summon as opposed to some others (more obscure and older mechanics, i cant think of any by name but i do remember the wording being a thing) that specify that any models that cant fit in the "goldilocks zone" are dead but the rest are fine

[Rollcage]

Summoning looks weak.

The limitations on the summon spells are exploitable.

So far armies that do not have summoning capabilities are seeing points cost reductions. (ironjawz, kharadron and sylvaneth off the top of my head)

Armies like kharadron that can now field more units then ever up front are now in a position to crush the summoning army in a turn or 2 before the summoning armies can gain the position to grind you down in the later turns.

So summoning is delayed extra units with conditions, if you don't summon you just get a big army on turn 1.

It's the only way to balance the armies that can summon vs those that don't. 

SO pull out your wallets and buy more units, because so far this edition is increasing the model count for everybody!!

[Chikout]

So lets look at the only points drop we know with any certainty which is Ko. Assuming you were running an ironclad and a frigate in your old list, with an 80 point decrease for each you will now have enough points to buy an extra unit of skywards and a command point. If we assume this is typical then non summoning armies will get an extra unit or a battalion or two or three command points,  or a couple of endless spells or some combination of the above.

Summoning armies will have the chance to get rather more but it is less reliable. 

If the aos player base is unhappy with this we could just reset to 1750 points like 40k has done for the UK gt, and we would be back to where we are now but we would have to give up options in our current lists if we want endless spells,  more battalions or command points. 

[Sigwarus]

4 hours ago, Chikout said:

Lots of interesting stuff to digest. It is interesting that people are most worried about legions of Nagash. It seems the most preventable. 1- don't kill the whole unit, tarpit it instead, 2, hang around near gravesites, 3 kill the general. 

Overall it looks like Flesh Eater Courts have the best summoning which is fitting as summoning is the one thing they do well. Sylvaneth is pretty good as there is nothing you can do to stop Alarielle's summons. The others all rely on accruing points, which are either detrimental to the summoner (Seraphon)  or can be minimised by the other player. There will probably be a few things that are over powered but there always are in AoS. Hopefully the playtesting has kept these to a minimum. 

The reason why I personally am most afraid of the death summoning is that the ways to handle it is limited. People suggest that you should not kill the whole unit. The problem is that this was until now the best way to deal with skeletons. I use to recommend that you try to kill a whole unit to prevent them from replenish. To not kill it means you are facing a fully healed unit and in the case of skeletons that means that you're units are soon eaten. Of course you can prevent this by being close to gravesites but that's not always possible. I still hope GW have addressed this with a points increase on skeletons and nagash but if not I think TOs will have to limit undead summoning. 

[Jamopower]

It's good to remember that the summoning is better in smaller games as the proportional value increases. 

I have to say that I don't think that summoning adds much to the game. It is fun, but also it's such a powerful ability that you probably want to include the providers to your army, reducing the variation of the armies. Also it straight up increases the amount of models and time that the game takes. Similar to the skeletons striking hundreds of times, it's more fun on paper than to actually play. One of the reasons why I got into AoS, is that it is reasonably fast game compared to 40k and FB, I hope it still is fter the changes.  On the other hand, in our gaming group the summoning won't be a big thing. We don't have too many summoning possibilities and as we play smaller games, the undead summoning likely needs to be restricted anyways to have any point in the games.  

[LLV]

1 hour ago, Rollcage said:

 

So summoning is delayed extra units with conditions, if you don't summon you just get a big army on turn 1.

It's the only way to balance the armies that can summon vs those that don't. 

SO pull out your wallets and buy more units, because so far this edition is increasing the model count for everybody!!

Nailed it ?

[Aeryenn]

2 hours ago, Rollcage said:

Summoning looks weak.

The limitations on the summon spells are exploitable.

So far armies that do not have summoning capabilities are seeing points cost reductions. (ironjawz, kharadron and sylvaneth off the top of my head)

Armies like kharadron that can now field more units then ever up front are now in a position to crush the summoning army in a turn or 2 before the summoning armies can gain the position to grind you down in the later turns.

So summoning is delayed extra units with conditions, if you don't summon you just get a big army on turn 1.

It's the only way to balance the armies that can summon vs those that don't. 

SO pull out your wallets and buy more units, because so far this edition is increasing the model count for everybody!!

I don't see it that way. Kharadrons needed point reduction despite summoning. Even now, few pages back, people say that gunhauler is not worth its cost. Sylvaneth however get a summoning and it looks promising - not overpowered, not weak. Tzeentch doesn't need a boost yet he also gets a summoning mechanic (free of points). I believe it is just (new summoning) to answear community expectations and I'm really glad GW listens to us. At this point I wouldn't assume that these changes serve only GW's increased sales. 

When they increased costs od many units in the last ghb did they do it to sell less minis or to balance the game? 

[Skreech Verminking]

13 minutes ago, LLV said:

Nailed it ?

Damm, 

well at least I got exactly 13000points of skaven.

not sure though, if the summoning will be helping me much there. 

[Gotrek]

30 minutes ago, Sigwarus said:

</snip>

I still hope GW have addressed this with a points increase on skeletons and nagash but if not I think TOs will have to limit undead summoning. 

I can see summonable units going up by 10 or 20 points (bare minimum, get rid of the horde discount), however, nagash is still terrible even at 800 points. Sure, he can cast a stupid number of spells at a good bonus, but you are giving up so much regeneration it doesnt matter. For example: take the lords of sacrament battalion, 790 points and you get 3 spells at +3 to cast, 4 spells at +1 to cast, +1 save vs shooting AND you regen 4 units d3 from arkhan and 2 more units 2d3 (or 1d3 for 4 additional units depending on how you choose to use your necros invocate). 

Or, what I do: vampire lord on zombie dragon, a necro, and 2 vampire lords on foot. 2 units get d3 each and 3 units each get 3d3. Plus i still have a combat beast.

In a vacuum nagash *might* be worth 800, but in context of *how* death plays, hes not.