Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[chord]

1 hour ago, Christopher Rowe said:

Close combat between flying and grounded units depends upon some of the most widely ignored rules in the game as far as I can tell, or at least they're widely ignored in my area and in the games I've watched played on YouTube and Twitch. The rules are quite clear--and they're further clarified in a FAQ--that the two types of units still have to be in range of one another to use their melee weapons against one another. So if you have a Skink with a 1" range melee weapon base to base with a flying unit on top of an elevation pillar that's two or three inches high, the Skink simply can't attack the flying unit (and likewise, the flying unit probably can't attack the Skink). I've pointed out this rule, pointed out the FAQ, and argued logic until I'm blue in the face locally, but people just don't care. Base to base means close combat with all melee weapons regardless of range for many players. I find it frustrating, as it renders things like Rippderdactyl Riders' Swooping Dive ability essentially meaningless.

IMO the majority of players only want to follow the rules that benefit them.  Like actually checking LOS for each model in a unit...nope...

I hope they clarify the rules such as LOS and flying units more in 2nd edition

[daedalus81]

3 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Actually, that is exactly what GW has done repeatedly throughout their history. Look at how many releases Space Marines get over any given time frame. Now look at how many releases Dark Eldar, or Necrons, or really just about anything else gets.

Much of their release scheduling has classically revolved around a self fulfilling cycle of more releases for a faction -> more sales for that faction -> more releases for that faction. And the inverse for less focused on factions.

So Ironjawz and the Fungoid Shaman mean more sales for Destruction which means more kits for Destruction.  Problem solved.

[Thomas Lyons]

17 minutes ago, Brightstar said:

I see your point here, but on paper the gunhauler has a lot of special rules that improve tactical flexibility and can cause mortal wounds. Gw may be pro-rating that a bit higher.  

When GW introduced points it allowed them to fix balance issues through points instead of profiles as GW has always done. That has never worked well for any game as points efficiency is what drives list building which in turn creates outrageous power curves between various armies - see netlists and list tiers. 

If they would focus instead on internal balance between profiles of  the same type - these two being  a prime example of that - they could establish a more consistent design throughout the entire game. 

That being said its a 20 point difference. I think in GW's design philosophy its a marginal difference that is,  "close enough to essentially be the same."

Now if that doesnt work for your perceived value of a gunhauler, I get it. Where as, if it had like a 4+ save, like the Allopex its value would be more attractive to you?

It certainly would be more attractive.  But, I think you missed my point.  Most people who are playing Deepkin  have considered the Allopex a badly costed unit and one that they will only include because they like the model or are required to by a battalion.  There is irony in the fact that the Allopex still comes out as the better buy even after the Gunhauler recosting.  That is what is so hilarious. 

[daedalus81]

3 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

No. They do an average of 1.6 wounds per shooting phase and have the melee capabilities of warmachine crew.  And a 5+ save.

That sort of ignores the other stuff it does.  Not everything need to have raw shooting power.

[Aelfric]

I predict there's going to be a new sky-port with the motto:-

" There's no pleasing some people "

 

[Clan's Cynic]

15 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I predict there's going to be a new sky-port with the motto:-

" There's no pleasing some people "

 

Games Workshop employees could mandate kicking you in the stomach with every purchase and somebody here would call people out on not enjoying it.

I don't really get why people discussing how there's more to balance than mere points reduction always proves so offensive. 

The points drop is nice and was sorely needed though. An excuse for more airships is always a good thing, although I am (pleasantly) surprised to see the Ironclad go down too. I feel like Navigators really need their anti-magic potential pushed further, perhaps with a meaty bonus if you don't bring any allied wizards?

[kozokus]

6 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I think we're fooling ourselves if we think a 100-140 point single caster will be magically competitive with  armies that have multicasting and bonuses to cast.

Mh yes, you re right  Competitive, certeanly not but at least you have acess to weak tools, which is different from not beeing able at all.

[Barkanaut]

Very underwhelmed with all this. Hopefully we get some great stuff to spen cp’s on to make up for it. 

[GeneralZero]

All in all, I'm super impatient now, so many changes, so many additions, so many new things, points drops, new armies....I wanna my 2 boxes and play da game!!

[Kramer]

Can we just acknowledge that points drops, rises, differences are only relevant within the full context? And we don’t have that yet. Not only rule wise but also within a faction. Comparisons between factions are fun agreed but not necessarily the whole picture. Just my two cents. 

[AlphaKennyThing]

2 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

All in all, I'm super impatient now, so many changes, so many additions, so many new things, points drops, new armies....I wanna my 2 boxes and play da game!!

This may be the first Warhammer release where I actually buy two of the Starter Box intentionally for double the modelz.

[GeneralZero]

I want this balista so badly (and the nighthaunt and everything)....phhhh I'm plastic junky

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

52 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Can we just acknowledge that points drops, rises, differences are only relevant within the full context? And we don’t have that yet. Not only rule wise but also within a faction. Comparisons between factions are fun agreed but not necessarily the whole picture. Just my two cents. 

In all honesty, I am afraid I quite don't like this kind of drip feed that GW does. Sure, at the end of it we will get the whole picture by at large, but unfortunately the ways  these tidbits are presented make us treat them in a vacuum or just in context with the prexisting data and the few other tidbits, rather than judging with the WHOLE picture from the get go. Mind you, this can be solved by simply ignoring the hypemachine, which is what I've been started doing for the last couple days, and stop thinking too much about it up until the new edition cracks open and I can get the full experience to gauge the changes.

[MightyMetro]

9 hours ago, Xasz said:

Khorne could get a 6+ ward save against magic attacks.

 This would be fluffy and minimise the imbalances created by improved magi

 

9 hours ago, Xasz said:

Way too weak, considering Khorne's current magic defense is about on par with the rest.

True, Khorne are weaker in terms of magic.  They are not a magical faction.  However, look at how they may have been buffed by this editions rules.

1) Look out, Sir will help protect aura buffs that are super important to this faction.

2) mystic shield is weakened. So more damage will be dealt when you get in melee.

3) collars of Khorne, as with all unbinds, now work at 30”.  

4) summoning - as yet we dont know how strong this will be for this faction.  As others have said, summoning may not be equally balanced between factions.

5) Access to a significant number of command abilities

As we are drip fed teasers its easy to focus on one point, for example magic, and feel out faction has been hard done by. However, if we wait and look at all the changes wholistically, things may be a little different.

[mhsellwood]

4 hours ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

In all honesty, I am afraid I quite don't like this kind of drip feed that GW does. Sure, at the end of it we will get the whole picture by at large, but unfortunately the ways  these tidbits are presented make us treat them in a vacuum or just in context with the prexisting data and the few other tidbits, rather than judging with the WHOLE picture from the get go. Mind you, this can be solved by simply ignoring the hypemachine, which is what I've been started doing for the last couple days, and stop thinking too much about it up until the new edition cracks open and I can get the full experience to gauge the changes.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally I am taking a couple of weeks off from reading too much on this site / facebook and just enjoying what I am reading from GW, and will judge the full details in a couple of months when EVERYTHING (points, warscroll changes, rules changes etc) is out and there has been a chance to actually get an overall feel for how it is working for me and my gaming group

[Chikout]

I think my disappointment with the Ko article stems from how much I like them. The models are all amazing as is the lore, but the list building options and play style variety is lacking. 

With just a  handful of tweaks you could encourage a variety of army builds and give Ko players a bit more agency in other phases of the game. 

I would like to see a handful of extra command abilities.

Admiral- instead of fighting in the combat phase, one unit may retreat and shoot with one of their ranged weapons.

Navigator - until the next hero phase, the navigator may add one to Unbind rolls or unbind an endless spell. 

Endrinmaster - once per game the endrinmaster may return one sky vessel to full wounds. The sky vessel may not move in its next movement phase.

(this is Ko's summoning equivalent) 

New character grundstock captain. (made from the existing kits)

Ability combined arms- if a gun hauler and a unit of thunders are both within 12" of the hero, they may add one to hit rolls. 

Command ability - any grundstock unit within 12" may add one to hit and wound rolls. 

If the grundstock captain is your general, grundstock thunderers are battleline. 

Apologies for putting my wishlisting into this thread,  but these are the kind of changes you could make to Ko without breaking their fluff or being forced to resort to allies.

 

[Nixon]

I am  very excited about the new rules, everything spoiled so far sounds like an improvement. At first I was hoping that GW would do away with the doubleturn, but now I have realized that it is just me thinking to conservatively. 

[Sigwarus]

Keeping the double turn is the best news so far. It gives you tactical choices. Now I hope for some small tweaks in the terrain rules. More things than giving cover for the generic terrain. 

[Killax]

Funny to see cost mentioned as I was under the assumption it was getting quite obvious that more powerful magic will indeed be met with higher costs. As I recall it was also under GH2017 that Magic was more tuned down in general. With Sayl as the prime example but more Wizards being altered. Costs dropped here and there because these wizards largely became less powerful. Even Legion's of Nagash lore spells arn't too terribly killing.

19 hours ago, DanielFM said:

But that's not true. Fyreslayers, Kharadron, Dispossessed and quite a few smaller factions get 0 access to wizards. You can say they can get access to wizards via allies of the same faction, but summoning is the same. Every faction (except Destruction?) has summoners.

You certainly do have acces to them. As the Kharadron article itself allready mentions, using allies is still an option. 
My point remains the same however:
- Paying a cost for powerful Wizards adds a restriction to your army design, this leads to easy balance.
- Not paying a cost for powerful (summonning) Units does not add a restriction to your army design, this leads to easy unbalance.

So unless the next article mentiones free Wizards for everybody I don't really see any change to the Magic system as a hazard to the game. It just indeed means that more Wizards will be used. However everybody remains to have acces to them. 

[PlasticCraic]

16 minutes ago, Sigwarus said:

Keeping the double turn is the best news so far. It gives you tactical choices. Now I hope for some small tweaks in the terrain rules. More things than giving cover for the generic terrain. 

The only ones I would like to see in that sphere relate to Mystical:

1) Force you to take it at the start of your hero phase, so you have the true risk vs reward.  At the moment, you can do all your Hero phase stuff (including movement out of 3" range if you have it) and then take the test, which is too forgiving imo.

2) Bring prayers into the scope of Mystical, they get a free ride currently.

Otherwise I love the Mystical Terrain rules, personally.  Keep them as is.

In terms of them providing cover, I'd like to see a tweak to what cannot get cover.  Currently it's Monsters, which is quite arbitrary and leads to weird exceptions (Hurricanum for example).  I'd like to see them go with the "X or more wounds" definition that they used for Endless Spells.

[Bloodmaster]

16 hours ago, Jamopower said:

Traditionally non-magical armies like dwarfs and Khorne were better at dispelling. There's some of it in aoS, but like in past editions, it's not exactly often meaningful enough to really be a strength as it needs some serious investment in it and still often the magic is stronger. 

Ah the good old times, where nearly no army could get a spell of against my mortal mono-khorne list HD after the magic phase I still had dispell dice left. What a glorious edition of WhFB that was. 

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, Bloodmaster said:

Ah the good old times, where nearly no army could get a spell of against my mortal mono-khorne list HD after the magic phase I still had dispell dice left. What a glorious edition of WhFB that was. 

6th Khorne was a blast. But also crazy Khorne and very cav focused, at least in my regional area this was the choice of army I applied with large succes  

That aside I wouldn't be suprised to see several armies have the option to spend 1 or 2 CP to automatically Unbind a spell. Maby it's just there for the factions that don't have Wizards but I do certainly expect it. They quickly mentioned a remade Blood Tithe table and I do expect it will be made so that CP and BT don't do more or less the same  

[stratigo]

16 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Why do you want magic in all factions? Why on earth a dwarves army need magic where basically they HATE this kind of stuf??

Let the armies fight with their own strenght!

 

Because they're making magic extremely strong and very exciting and it feels a bit bad to get left out or have to buy stormcast to play with what they are obviously putting by FAR the most thought and effort in to.

 

15 hours ago, Sigwarus said:

Well, well, well. I think I was very right about the KOs in the coming edition

No, KO are almost certainly going to be non viable in any competitive sense. They have nothing exciting. GW literally went "Oh, that neat magic thing we're doing. Well you can buy some stormcast for that."

 

 

[Ollie Grimwood]

Khorne has loads of anti magic, artifacts, Blood tithe, Bloodsecrators, Blood blessing and a number of heroes who can now unbind at a much greater range also mystic shield and Acrane bolt are now much deminished.  The increased range of Unbinding is actually a massive boost to all armies’ anti magic abilities given that its range is much larger than most spells or even shooting making it much easier to sit back and nullify spells.

edit: I forgot Bloodblessing, easy to do with all those options. 

[Xasz]

25 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Khorne has loads of anti magic, artifacts, Blood tithe, Bloodsecrators and a number of heroes who can now unbind at a much greater range also mystic shield and Acrane bolt are now much deminished.  The increased range of Unbinding is actually a massive boost to all armies’ anti magic abilities given that its range is much larger than most spells or even shooting making it much easier to sit back and nullify spells. 

On paper, sure.

In reality you are only a little bit better than normal armies against magic, while forfeiting almost all magic and shooting.