Xasz Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Aryann said: Come to think of it that might be a good advice but still I feel uncomfortable spending a lot of cash on demons (which I just don't like in term of minis) to fully operate my army. On the one hand you say there is no division across khorne but then we have battalions that most (all?) are pure mortals or pure demons. It's understandable that people focused their Khorne army on one side or another. Some skills or artefacts also work only with mortals/demons. Our situations are comparable, I have about 3k points mortals and except that one unit of 10 Bloodletters I needed to buy for free shipping, no daemons. With 2.0 coming up I'll either expand into Khorne daemons (you can easily fit 60 Bloodletters, a WoK into a Gore Pilgrim list and go hybrid) or start a new project, depending on how this edition shapes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 34 minutes ago, Brightstar said: Re-roll 1 is essentially the same thing as a +1 save. But it is different enough to make it count on a small margin - especially with rend. MS is still a great spell, even with the rule change. With the change to arcane bolt, it is still the better of the two spells. Sort of... 3+ reroll 1s is 77.7% instead of 83% (-6%) 4+ reroll 1s is 58.4% instead of 66% (-12%) 5+ reroll 1s is 38.9% instead of 50% (-22%) 6+ reroll 1s is 19.5% instead of 33% (-41%) Mystic shield had big benefits for units with low saves, but the problem is no one used it on them. It got put on already big saves, so in that way, yes, reroll 1s are close enough. A 3+ that could be made a 2+ and already had reroll 1s from another source is 97.2%. That is now forced to 77%, which is sizable a 21% drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I used it on 5+ saves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightstar Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Jamopower said: I have understood that this has always been exactly the way GW design the games. Every rulebook has "The most important rule of having fun" and creating house rules is very much encouraged. For reason or another, many players have had the attitude that everything in the books is to be included and everything should be played just as it is written, no matter how wrong it will make the rules play out due to some sloppy formation of sentences. The recent reminder by writing out the matched/narrative/open to the rulebook is a good reminder for the players that the way the game should be played is in the end in their hands. Even when "narrative and open content" has always been part of the game. And there is nothing wrong in that. For me, the modularity and sandbox nature is the thing why I play Age of Sigmar in the first hand. This is even more clear when you think about that the head of the design department happens to be Jervis Johnson (correct me if I'm wrong), who used to have his own column in the White Dwarf promoting this kind of gaming. I just downloaded the Black Powder and Pike & Shotte rulebooks as they were free, which are written by him and Rick Priestley. Almost every chapter, there is something along the lines of "this is how we play it, feel free to do it other way if you see it appropriate". You are exactly right. There is even a great article I believe by Jervis about playing games without points and the culture GW is creating by insisting on using points for their games. How the points limit players creativity and the capacity of what wargames can do. Essentially, he has always been focused on the narrative power of the games, of creating really unique, challenging, and gamer driven mechanics. It's all over AOS 1 and that's what gives it the modularity/sandbox nature of the game. House rules are fantastic. We use quite a few in my group - we don't even use points. But making those changes is not always easy and can create a more toxic gaming environment. Much like the forums, saying some rule should behave a different way can be seen as a crippling attack on someone else's fun. This becomes even harder when trying to create community events - where house rules get challenged a lot as not playing the "real" game - or to play with people you don't know at a shop, you almost have to leave them at the door. If they want the game to be about house rules, create less rules so we have more freedom to do it. One of my biggest let downs with AOS 1 was GW not sticking to their guns about the no-points mechanics and trying to support their narrative system they were creating. It was an entirely new direction for games, which was great, but they didn't do much to help us, as players, figure out what they wanted us to do. For example, their original write-up mechanic was to throw as many miniatures as you want on the table until you get tired of putting out miniatures? They are a multimillion dollar company with millions of fans and that's the best they could come up with? For an entire year or two? They had no other ideas besides, "well they don't like it so give them points?" When my group has, in a matter of a few months, come up with a system that, for the most part, works with some extremely stunning findings on their point system. It looks like AOS 2 is keeping a lot of that sandbox, nature, which is fantastic. I hope players continue to use it to play the games they want to play. I also hope, GW doesn't forget the roots of AOS which is the three ways to play the game and the initial core, 4 pages of rules. So far everything has been essentially updates and not rewrites. I hope it stays that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, Brightstar said: One of my biggest let downs with AOS 1 was GW not sticking to their guns about the no-points mechanics and trying to support their narrative system they were creating. It was an entirely new direction for games, which was great, but they didn't do much to help us, as players, figure out what they wanted us to do. For example, their original write-up mechanic was to throw as many miniatures as you want on the table until you get tired of putting out miniatures? They are a multimillion dollar company with millions of fans and that's the best they could come up with? For an entire year or two? They had no other ideas besides, "well they don't like it so give them points?" When my group has, in a matter of a few months, come up with a system that, for the most part, works with some extremely stunning findings on their point system. It looks like AOS 2 is keeping a lot of that sandbox, nature, which is fantastic. I hope players continue to use it to play the games they want to play. I also hope, GW doesn't forget the roots of AOS which is the three ways to play the game and the initial core, 4 pages of rules. So far everything has been essentially updates and not rewrites. I hope it stays that way. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickybluetoffee Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Hoping they’ll reveal the release date at the UK Games Expo preview seminar this weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, stickybluetoffee said: Hoping they’ll reveal the release date at the UK Games Expo preview seminar this weekend I'll bet you it's come out right after Imperial Knights are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeryenn Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Xasz said: Our situations are comparable, I have about 3k points mortals and except that one unit of 10 Bloodletters I needed to buy for free shipping, no daemons. With 2.0 coming up I'll either expand into Khorne daemons (you can easily fit 60 Bloodletters, a WoK into a Gore Pilgrim list and go hybrid) or start a new project, depending on how this edition shapes up. Gotta see the new blood tithe table so if expenses close just to 2-3 boxes of Bloodletters it might be acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grungolah Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Aryann said: ... I feel uncomfortable spending a lot of cash on demons (which I just don't like in term of minis) to fully operate my army... /Nurgle At least you don't have to buy daemons and trees! /Nurgle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyshadow Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Interesting comments about the love here for open play. I must admit though that I find having the option to use a point system really important as I find it really helps me create great games. If I had more time maybe I could do this without points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKennyThing Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Aryann said: Come to think of it that might be a good advice but still I feel uncomfortable spending a lot of cash on demons (which I just don't like in term of minis) to fully operate my army. On the one hand you say there is no division across khorne but then we have battalions that most (all?) are pure mortals or pure demons. It's understandable that people focused their Khorne army on one side or another. Some skills or artefacts also work only with mortals/demons. I don't like the Khorne demon minis much either. My plan was to... demonify, for lack of better words, some Bloodreavers, and play them as Bloodletters. As long as the difference was obvious I think it'll work alright! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, AlphaKennyThing said: I don't like the Khorne demon minis much either. My plan was to... demonify, for lack of better words, some Bloodreavers, and play them as Bloodletters. As long as the difference was obvious I think it'll work alright! You should paint them as if they are literally made of blood! That would be dope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asamu Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 7 hours ago, Brightstar said: You are exactly right. There is even a great article I believe by Jervis about playing games without points and the culture GW is creating by insisting on using points for their games. How the points limit players creativity and the capacity of what wargames can do. Essentially, he has always been focused on the narrative power of the games, of creating really unique, challenging, and gamer driven mechanics. It's all over AOS 1 and that's what gives it the modularity/sandbox nature of the game. House rules are fantastic. We use quite a few in my group - we don't even use points. But making those changes is not always easy and can create a more toxic gaming environment. Much like the forums, saying some rule should behave a different way can be seen as a crippling attack on someone else's fun. This becomes even harder when trying to create community events - where house rules get challenged a lot as not playing the "real" game - or to play with people you don't know at a shop, you almost have to leave them at the door. If they want the game to be about house rules, create less rules so we have more freedom to do it. One of my biggest let downs with AOS 1 was GW not sticking to their guns about the no-points mechanics and trying to support their narrative system they were creating. It was an entirely new direction for games, which was great, but they didn't do much to help us, as players, figure out what they wanted us to do. It was the community that demanded points, because having a basic system for players to balance casual games around makes the hobby more accessible. GW did not, and does not, insist on points being used in their games; they just created a system for people that wanted one to use, because there was a high demand for it, and they already had other systems in place with points systems, so it was the natural way to go. They continue to support the narrative system in addition to the points system, but not everyone does narrative play. Some people just want a reasonably fair way to play the game that doesn't rely on using a set of homebrewed rules that is difficult to find/access if you aren't already a part of the gaming group. It's also a whole lot easier to create house-rules when there is already a core system in place than creating a system of house rules for balancing the game from scratch, and, in order to have a strong competitive community, which can bring in more players and makes for additional marketing opportunities, a standard balancing system is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Asamu said: It was the community that demanded points, because having a basic system for players to balance casual games around makes the hobby more accessible. GW did not, and does not, insist on points being used in their games; they just created a system for people that wanted one to use, because there was a high demand for it, and they already had other systems in place with points systems, so it was the natural way to go. They continue to support the narrative system in addition to the points system, but not everyone does narrative play. Some people just want a reasonably fair way to play the game that doesn't rely on using a set of homebrewed rules that is difficult to find/access if you aren't already a part of the gaming group. It's also a whole lot easier to create house-rules when there is already a core system in place than creating a system of house rules for balancing the game from scratch, and, in order to have a strong competitive community, which can bring in more players and makes for additional marketing opportunities, a standard balancing system is necessary. Yes, I believe this is the big split up and cause for many issues in the games. The creators have different mentality and idea than big part of the people they are doing the games for. It's not only about GW, but it is visible in many gaming communities. I think it has also changed a bit in recent years. I would say that the current 40k and AoS are the most "built for tournament gaming" they have ever been. Also with games such as Shadespire and re-released Blood bowl, the competitive gaming is getting some love from GW. I would assume it is down to individuals. Many of the old game designers have left GW (like Rick Priestley, Andy Chambers, Alessio Cavatore, Matt Ward, etc.) and new younger generation have taken the reins. Old GW was based quite much on historical gaming, which typically doesn't have points and the army lists are not often made by the players. It has changed towards more "user friendly" along the years, but the background is still visible. I would also say that Warlord games is nowadays pretty much the old GW, (without the big corporate culture downsides). Their games aren't really suited for tournament gaming, (but they are fun). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudonyme Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 40 minutes ago, Jamopower said: Yes, I believe this is the big split up and cause for many issues in the games. The creators have different mentality and idea than big part of the people they are doing the games for. It's not only about GW, but it is visible in many gaming communities. I think it has also changed a bit in recent years. I would say that the current 40k and AoS are the most "built for tournament gaming" they have ever been. Also with games such as Shadespire and re-released Blood bowl, the competitive gaming is getting some love from GW. I would assume it is down to individuals. Many of the old game designers have left GW (like Rick Priestley, Andy Chambers, Alessio Cavatore, Matt Ward, etc.) and new younger generation have taken the reins. Old GW was based quite much on historical gaming, which typically doesn't have points and the army lists are not often made by the players. It has changed towards more "user friendly" along the years, but the background is still visible. I would also say that Warlord games is nowadays pretty much the old GW, (without the big corporate culture downsides). Their games aren't really suited for tournament gaming, (but they are fun). On this topic, I encourage all of you to watch an old Vince Venturella on the psychographic profiles created by Marc Rosewater (Magic) and more specifically on the shift between Battle and AoS The initial articles by Rosewater https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-revisited-2006-03-20-2 https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/vorthos-and-mel-2015-08-31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xasz Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 Marc Rosewater's GDC talk about game design is pretty stellar as well. Sadly, he's pretty much the last sane person left at WotC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Marius Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 15 hours ago, Aryann said: Come to think of it that might be a good advice but still I feel uncomfortable spending a lot of cash on demons (which I just don't like in term of minis) to fully operate my army. On the one hand you say there is no division across khorne but then we have battalions that most (all?) are pure mortals or pure demons. It's understandable that people focused their Khorne army on one side or another. Some skills or artefacts also work only with mortals/demons. That is your choice - collect your army how you want to (thats my motto, i buy whatever i like the look of, as the rules and points change every year anyway!). However, I wouldnt expect GW to cater to some perceived need for an army limited by one's own decisions to be 'tournament competitive'. In fact Im pretty sure they still design the rules first to make an army fun and characterful for open/narrative play, then the Balance Brigade comes along to slap points on everything and tone down some of the more liberal rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 we are in JUNE 2018 for a loooooooooooong time now, almost for 43205 seconds (which is a lot ! ( of seconds )) Where's my AoS 2???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 5 minutes ago, GeneralZero said: we are in JUNE 2018 for a loooooooooooong time now, almost for 43205 seconds (which is a lot ! ( of seconds )) Where's my AoS 2???? There's a GW seminar at the UK Games Expo this afternoon. Should be more information about the release later today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 I was joking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lardidar Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, GeneralZero said: I was joking Mostly...A little bit of me is going come on GW...I have all my money, preorder today and you may just get my rent money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trayanee Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 I hate being hyped. I wish they have hidden everything from us till the release day. Refreshing community page continuously every day can get quite time-consuming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 45 minutes ago, GeneralZero said: I was joking I know but some people may be wondering the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip4Tap Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 Anyone got an idea when 2nd edition is going to drop? I know it's June but anything more specific? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysandestolpe Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 Just now, Tip4Tap said: Anyone got an idea when 2nd edition is going to drop? I know it's June but anything more specific? People say different dates, so far I’ve heard 9th, 16th, and 30th. Perhaps they will tell us today at UKGE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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