Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[ledha]

58 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Shooting never ended up one sided in any match I played, or competetive match I have examined. Not a single one. I have never understood where the impression that shooting was OP derived from a hold over from 2016 armies. But that was down to overly effective units, not an overly effective range. 

 

2017 solves shooting by nerfing the problems. Hunters and sylvaneth in general dropped away. Kunnin ruk grew very rare. Thunderers were nerfed into uselessness. The only shooting that stayed extremely viable was skyfires, and even then they were not the best choice any longer. 

It’s obvious the bias was formed before a ton of refs and hardened so that your opinion could not change, and isn’t based on the actual state of aos for the past year

 

kuniin ruuk is still alive. Sylvaneth never dropped away and is still consistently in the upper mid (sometime top) of most of tournaments, adepticon included. Same thing for the kharadron clown car.

A freeguild gunline is a pain to face when playing a full melee army.

Mixed order gunline is VERY common, with ton or arkanauts/freeguild with an hurricanum and a big badass frontline. When you are fighting 60 eternal guard and still take 36 skyhook in the head, you are not happy

The vulkite berserker spam can throw 180 hatchets at base which melt the opponent outside of melee phase. The "shoot everywhere, everytime" is one of the changehost iwinning ingredient. Horrors attacks are weak, but hundred of those per turn make quite some damage.

The release of Nurgle/death/deepkin surely helped a lot to mitigate the shooting.

[Burf]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

Shooting never ended up one sided in any match I played, or competetive match I have examined. Not a single one. I have never understood where the impression that shooting was OP derived from a hold over from 2016 armies. But that was down to overly effective units, not an overly effective range. 

 

2017 solves shooting by nerfing the problems. Hunters and sylvaneth in general dropped away. Kunnin ruk grew very rare. Thunderers were nerfed into uselessness. The only shooting that stayed extremely viable was skyfires, and even then they were not the best choice any longer. 

It’s obvious the bias was formed before a ton of refs and hardened so that your opinion could not change, and isn’t based on the actual state of aos for the past year

 

It's one of those things that sort of gets stuck in and becomes the only thing people can think about. 90% of every shooting unit in the game is WORTHLESS, but skyfires and Kurnoths came out 40-60pts too cheap and it's all anyone can think about. They've overnerfed shooting at this point but people are still mad about it.

 

Meanwhile the majority of the most degenerate, bullgak lists in the game revolve around magic (lookin at you changehost) not shooting.

[Burf]

47 minutes ago, ledha said:

kuniin ruuk is still alive. Sylvaneth never dropped away and is still consistently in the upper mid (sometime top) of most of tournaments, adepticon included. Same thing for the kharadron clown car.

A freeguild gunline is a pain to face when playing a full melee army.

Mixed order gunline is VERY common, with ton or arkanauts/freeguild with an hurricanum and a big badass frontline. When you are fighting 60 eternal guard and still take 36 skyhook in the head, you are not happy

The vulkite berserker spam can throw 180 hatchets at base which melt the opponent outside of melee phase. The "shoot everywhere, everytime" is one of the changehost iwinning ingredient. Horrors attacks are weak, but hundred of those per turn make quite some damage.

The release of Nurgle/death/deepkin surely helped a lot to mitigate the shooting.

Sylvaneth fell off a cliff, you get 1-3 in the top 32 MAYBE, Kunnin ruck barely sees play and gets no traction when it does, mixed order gunline might be common but it's ****** compared to mixed order monster mash lists like Byron Orde's, especially if you waste points on Arkanauts, when you're facing 60 eternal guard and 36 skyhooks you're laughing because they get one turn of shooting before their entire army folds in the turn after that, the freeguild gunline is a non-issue for pretty much every battletome melee army since they get on top of you instantly, pink horrors shooting attack is irrelevelant compared to their footprint, fyreslayers' shooting is only a small portion of why they're so good.

 

[Brightstar]

21 minutes ago, Burf said:

Sylvaneth fell off a cliff, you get 1-3 in the top 32 MAYBE, Kunnin ruck barely sees play and gets no traction when it does, mixed order gunline might be common but it's ****** compared to mixed order monster mash lists like Byron Orde's, especially if you waste points on Arkanauts, when you're facing 60 eternal guard and 36 skyhooks you're laughing because they get one turn of shooting before their entire army folds in the turn after that, the freeguild gunline is a non-issue for pretty much every battletome melee army since they get on top of you instantly, pink horrors shooting attack is irrelevelant compared to their footprint, fyreslayers' shooting is only a small portion of why they're so good.

 

But neither side of this arguement has anything to do with shooting in the core rules. This is looking at specific units. It's not looking at how changes to the core rules would effect other units. I never see anyone complain about troll vomit attacks targeting outside of units. If the fire Slayer throwing axe attacks are too powerful that's a problem with the fire Slayers not with the core mechanics. Shooting does have its problems as its not integrated well into the rules as it is. Its sort of the old 40k vehicle rules to the rest of the system. Sure it works, but not well and plays out as too weak or too strong. I hope gw does something to fix that problem. 

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, Arkiham said:

you missed my point, which was that you dunno the intention. so you are forced to make on in some instances. 

 

for instance the deepkin with their banners in the thrall unit or what ever it is, 

 

was it intended for the entire unit to be allowed this or not? rules as written yes, but who knows?

I don't think you are, though. As you point out in your own example, the rule as written provides the answer. No need to make up a new answer simply because the players may not like what they read. 

 

Play it as is until the people who actually do know the answer clue those of us on the outside in.

I honestly don't know why this is troublesome. :shrug: 

[Aeon]

3 hours ago, Arkiham said:

you missed my point, which was that you dunno the intention. so you are forced to make on in some instances. 

 

for instance the deepkin with their banners in the thrall unit or what ever it is, 

 

was it intended for the entire unit to be allowed this or not? rules as written yes, but who knows?

Well with 2.0 on the horizon; there could be a reason for it (maybe one banner per unit or perhaps for X models you can take a banner?)

[Orange]

I'm anxious about the new edition. I'm not going to decide whether I like it or not until the new edition has been going for a while, but change isn't always good so I think it's understandable that myself and others aren't completely enthusiastic when we've invested a lot of time into what it is now.

I've watched 40k gradually change from something fun but very fiddly (2nd ed) to what I found it to be peak enjoyment (mid 5th ed) to completely unenjoyable (8th ed), so there is precedent for this.

Keen for more news and I hope it is good!

[rokapoke]

51 minutes ago, Orange said:

I'm not going to decide whether I like it or not until the new edition has been going for a while

If more people followed your example, the  internet  would be a much happier place.

[Brightstar]

1 hour ago, Orange said:

I'm anxious about the new edition. I'm not going to decide whether I like it or not until the new edition has been going for a while, but change isn't always good so I think it's understandable that myself and others aren't completely enthusiastic when we've invested a lot of time into what it is now.

I've watched 40k gradually change from something fun but very fiddly (2nd ed) to what I found it to be peak enjoyment (mid 5th ed) to completely unenjoyable (8th ed), so there is precedent for this.

Keen for more news and I hope it is good!

 

56 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

If more people followed your example, the  internet  would be a much happier place.

Absolutely! I cant wait to see what they have in store for us. So far they have done really good things with AOS so I hope for the best. 

I wish they would have used seminar time to lay out the core changes, but such is the way of gw.

I have never been a fan of the flack AOS has gotten from certain crowds. There are 3 ways to play this game? I say 5 since there are those who use points and those who don't. 

My group doesn't use points. We have never had a problem with shooting, double turns, or anything in the core rules except the measuring system. The game adapts so well  to fit our needs as well as the tournament scene and thats what makes its design well done.  Its not at all as bad as all the nail biting, hand wringing and neg posting about it.

The core is not the problem. Certain units just make the core tricky to balance.

Changing any core mechanic will never change that problem. 

Shooting does need work. GW really needs to decide on its level of presence in the game and how to integrate it better for sure. I hope they did that rather than change a bunch of stuff to limit 2 or 3 armies.

I really cant wait to see what happens next

[Skreech Verminking]

10 hours ago, Brightstar said:

Why people, IMO, seem to love the new 40k over AOS (no double turn, chargers strike first, strength vs toughness comparison, no wound wrapping, etc) - it gives players more control over the game's math by making statistics more impervious to player choices, tactical decisions, randomness, and other variables  during game-play than the AOS system. 

As a game, in terms of design, 40k actually suffers in a number of areas.  AP's are far too high compared to rends so it still has to rely on a sub rule (invulnerable saves) even though the game doesn't really need them.  The damage system doesn't need to be as excessive.  Wounds not wrapping to the unit doesn't add depth, just complicates an otherwise streamlined rule design in AOS.   And chargers striking first is 100% less tactical, flexible, and sophisticated in terms of design compared to  the I go u go system in AOS.  It is a throwback to GW's antiquated systems that AOS was designed to abandon in the first place.

When I play 40k I feel like I am playing the beta test for the AOS ruleset, not the other way around.          

A rulebook's page count =/= sophistication.  Chess can fit on one page.  It is still, to this day, considered the most sophisticated and complex rule set on the planet.  

 The only parts of AOS  that needs to be reworked is measuring from the base and shooting.  In terms of shooting, instead of starting with the core rules,they should start by giving every faction in the game access to some form of shooting attacks.  That would go a long way to fixing this problem.

As  for the double turn, all it really needs is the LOTR - in case of a tie, whoever didn't have it last turn gets it this turn - mechanic.   The complaint that the game is determined by a roll of a die, is what GW games are all about.  If its not a priority roll, its another single die roll that determines who wins the game.  The complaint here, again, is about statistical math.  Players do not have access to a statistic that influences the dice roll so this dice roll is bad because they can't "math to win it."  

Everything else, like command points,  expanded hero phase, expanded magic rules, would only improve an otherwise fantastic set of rules.  I hope GW spent their time working on those aspects and largely left the core rules alone. 

 

Nah I wouldn’t say that the 40k system  feels like the. Beta rules for aos or in the other way. They both are different system which are fun to play. 

Just 40k seems to be more pleasant to play since your Hero’s  with less then 10wounds can’t be targeted as long as they are not the nearest models, then in aos. It sometimes is very frustrating when your characters just die in the first turn, just because you don’t have any kind of protection for them, like rules the deepkins have or any scenery which would block line of side. But if it comes to the system which is more fun to play, it would be (at least from my view) Aos.

[Olincay]

Honestly,  I'm pretty disappointed with people already getting up set with the new edition. We have no fine details other then shooting out of combat, command points being inserted and a new magic lore. Do we really want to be playing the same exact game forever? C'mon give it a chance people. 

[BrownDog]

Hey, not sure if anyone here has checked it out yet, but the ageofsigmar.com website is up, as a really nice piece of artwork. (might have some new Free Guild in it, but hard to tell, to the left below the knights)

[Still-young]

[Ungface]

21 hours ago, Spiny Norman said:

They're pretty streamlined and not complicated at all. Just more tactical depth due to cover, various weapon types, stratagems, fall backs,  no shooting in combat (Jesus AoS really?!) and so on.

Think of them as a sophisticated AoS ruleset.

I'm actually liking the Warscrolls and the potential they have to bring individual tactical varity, so I personally would just like to upgrade the AoS Base rules above the "1 page of rules" nonsense but not making them too complicated. I like the idea to operate with warscrolls though.

I feel 2nd ed is just about all that, so my hopes are  high.

 

 

I get what youre trying to say but you realise that half of the rules in 8th ed were taken directly from AoS?

[Praecautus]

55 minutes ago, Still-young said:

I don't recognise the big chaos guy far left of that image, although I suspect he is a reaver? Plus it looks like some big winged thing above the chaos army - shaped like a U. Flying beast or cloud?

[pseudonyme]

Concerning the shooting I to close combat, I would like a risk that the missed shots wound your own army (like the Zombicide Black plague or AoS28 warband shooting rues).

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I don't think you are, though. As you point out in your own example, the rule as written provides the answer. No need to make up a new answer simply because the players may not like what they read. 

 

Play it as is until the people who actually do know the answer clue those of us on the outside in.

I honestly don't know why this is troublesome. :shrug: 

From a competitive setting sure go all out and play rules as written. So give your thralls an icon per person so you essentially upgrade them all and your clanrats all either a banner or bell so you never have to think about who you remove. But as long as they sell sets that don’t allow you to build them as such their is and will be a discrepancy there.

Personally I still believe that to be the reason for the thunderers warscroll change and less so the battlefield impact. A point change could have solved that. 

[Killax]

Didn't read the whole thread but I am really happy with this. Happy to see my judgement of the game getting some re-work. Happy to see that GW also sees that having more errata as actual rules in books isn't the ideal way to go for any game. At least not when they are interested in getting new players to join also.

Other vaguer rumours have lead to me reading something about being able to not shoot out of the combat you are in, more magic effects being added and ideally more things are incorporated.

Looking forward to all of this! Till June folks.

[AaronWilson]

Well this is crazy exciting and it's coming so soon as well. Very excited to see how the new rules pan out, what is / isn't changed. 

[Gaz Taylor]

21 hours ago, Spiny Norman said:

 

I'm deeply sorry, I was assuming by your questionable premises that you are just taking part in the mindless self indulgence mono themed discussion boards like to nuture. You should make your allegations more specific from the beginning to avoid such misunderstandings. 

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Do not act like this again. This is not the sort of tone we want on TGA even when you are disagreeing with anybody. You have been warned

[HorticulusTGA]

2 hours ago, Still-young said:

That's bloody amazing ! I love Alex Boyd's works. 

I see Bloodeavers, Varanguard - maybe some Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath, against Warrior, Extremis and Sacrosanct Stormcast, and....

WHO ARE THOSE GUYS looking like they are facing the Chaos knights on the left ??? Normal, "Chinese-style" helmeted humans ?

[GeneralZero]

I can't find this video: where is it?

[HorticulusTGA]

3 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

I can't find this video: where is it?

https://ageofsigmar.com

I don't know of it works already

[CJPT]

24 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

That's bloody amazing ! I love Alex Boyd's works. 

I see Bloodeavers, Varanguard - maybe some Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath, against Warrior, Extremis and Sacrosanct Stormcast, and....

WHO ARE THOSE GUYS looking like they are facing the Chaos knights on the left ??? Normal, "Chinese-style" helmeted humans ?

I've got my fingers crossed that we're going to see Darkoath as a faction, and both that mounted guy and a few of the frontline warriors seem like they could be indicators of that? After all:

Lord-Ordinator -> Sacrosanct Chamber

Knight of Shrouds -> Nighthaunt update

Cave-Shaman -> rumoured gobbo release

Warqueen -> NEW UNDIVIDED CHAOS MORTALS PLEASE

[Greyshadow]

Wow, just wow. Certainly pre-ordering the big rule book as soon as I can. Definitely, definitely getting the objectives. I love the Sacrosanct Chamber (and Brian Blessed as Sigmar ?). Nighthaunt - just fantastic. How am I supposed to last until June though!!!