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Age of Sigmar: Second Edition


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So far in all the errata and now the new FW compendiums, they've been specifying which warscrolls are now valid, making it much more clear that new warscrolls replace the old and makes it's the official stance. I wonder if the is just a transition to 2e thing, or if we'll be seeing this going forward with warscroll updates. It's a little thing and most people did go get the most recent war scrolls when there were updates, but it's nice to see that they're tackling a lot of ambiguity this edition.

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20 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

Fellow skaven player! The most damage the doomwheel has done for me was killing a warpfire team, removing the last few wounds on a warp lightning cannon and causing 3 wounds to my grey seer, after rolling 2 6s for movement having declared I'd overcharge it and my opponent gleefully moving it through those units. 

Things Go Wrong could be the skaven motto really. It's why they're so much fun to play!

Why does this make me want to play as Skaven? ??

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3 hours ago, Vanger said:

No matter what army a new player has, if they game against veteran people, they will always have a rude awakening.  It's never the army, that they play, it's the inexperience in list building, knowing the rules, playing the mission.

I just played on Wednesday against a 40K newbie. I even helped him put his list together and I brought a fun army with myself. Even tough I couldn't scratch part of his army (he brought a Land Raider, which is one of the toughest units in 40K and he shot down my anti tank in the first round), he still lost. He didn't space out his units enough, he didn't know how to position units and didn't really play for objectives. I on the other hand knew my army, how it is supposed to work. He fell for my bait units, I could hop from close combat to another and played for the objectives. In the end I won 10 - 4.

I'm new to AoS and so far I only have starter box armies. I expect to get utterly destroyed the first few games, until I figure out , how this game is supposed to work what units do well for me, and which don't.

What I'm trying to say, the perceived balance by veteran players in an entirely different thing how casuals and beginners look at the game. In open and narrative games  the armies are balanced.  Matched play on the other hand is entirely different. But that comes with being competitive.

oh I dont have a problem with being destroyed by someone with more skill, xp and bigger collection. No problem with that, even if people here tend to not pull punchs. My worries are of a different kind. I know I should expend to get better, but when you go through the blades khorn section, there not seem to be any units marked by others as "get X for new edition", everything is nerf this, this costs too much, this doesn't fit, this works different so is bad now. Only thing people seem to like are karnak and free dogs, but those are all in finecast and not sold at my store. Plus I can't make a list out of a karnak and dogs alone.

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4 hours ago, Dragobeth said:

So what could people do when they army is bad? If you want to play and win at least sometimes just keep playing, sometimes you will win, sometimes you don't and that doesn't comes only from your army, there are a lot of random things in this game that can change anything.

losing or winning is less of my problem right now. I don't have full 2000pts yet. The thing is everything I have or though I could buy cheaper people say is bad or is nerfed. And it doesn't seem to be just one person. One guy says X are bad, another say yeah I tested those too they don't work, third chimes in and say he has 30+ of the model and they still don't work and cost a lot right now, in both money and points. I think every unit from the start collecting and big starter was called out as bad.

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9 hours ago, Tip4Tap said:

While I agree with you completely, having  been warhamming on and off for 13 years I know about the shifts in power armies the guy @stratigo quoted said that KO were ‘still great’ which just isn’t true. I know it’s early days and I don’t want to be negative but KO are no longer a competitive pick. 

This is coming from a guy who has just purchased an entire KO army, I didn’t do it for the tournament scene, I did it because the models rock. I know eventually GW will realise they’ve over nerfed KO and they will rise again in power which is why I’m not at all worried about my purchase. When I go to tournaments I’ll take one of my four other competitive armies.

I'm not going to say that they are still amazing or now horrible.  I will slightly echo that poster who said that great players should still be able to pilot them to victory.  I have played this game for over 25 years, and while I am not the biggest tourney goer and I only casually follow the results of the tournament scene, I will say that over the years great players have proven that they can often pilot dark-horse armies thought to be quite bad to victory in some instances.  I have mostly played Orcs & Goblins in Warhammer Fantasy over that time and the Greenskin community was always quick to hop onto tournament victories and pick apart why someone won - mainly due to the army being consistently on the lower end of the power-curve for most of it's existence.  There have been a number of victories over the years and some of those lists had no real blatant power to them.

For example, during 8th edition there was a major tournament won by a full common goblin list - which was not at all an army anyone would have pegged for being the most competitive force.  When you look at the list nothing really stands out in it aside from that the player took advantage of lots of cheap goblin min units, chaff, etc.  It was an army that did not exploit any rule or put anything amazingly deadly on the field.  Instead, it was a force that was superbly piloted to victory in most cases.

My point is just that superb players can win with substandard armies.  But if two equal players meet and one is running a very low-end army and the other a very optimized army then the optimized army will most likely win the majority of the time.  The exception there is if the low-end army plays in a different enough way that current "meta" armies can't deal with it correctly.  If most people are playing a game of rock-paper-scissors and someone shows up with a rubber-chicken then who knows what will happen.

And none of what I just wrote says that people cannot or should not be upset with the rules changes to their army.  I'm not here to tell anyone their personal opinions are invalid.  However, I will reiterate my previous post that if you play an army long enough then you will see it dip to some degree in terms of competitive standing.  It might be a small dip or a huge one.  Looking back over the history of Warhammer most of the really competitive armies do not seem intentional creations from GW.  There are a few cases where it was obvious that a big fan of an army on the dev team was allowed to write their book and made it better than it should be, but most times it seems that GW just did not really expect tactics to morph the way they do when players get their hands on them.

If you are the kind of person who requires your army to be in the upper tier to play it then you should understand that historically this means you will need to collect multiple armies or continually army hop.  If you are the kind of person that plays an army for another reason (such as background or models), then unfortunately you will have to deal with periods of time where your army might just kinda stink.  Hopefully that period is not long and your army never gets too bad, but as a primary Goblin player for over 25 years I understand your frustration and I recommend you that you embrace the parts of your army that you really enjoy.

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1 hour ago, Karol said:

oh I dont have a problem with being destroyed by someone with more skill, xp and bigger collection. No problem with that, even if people here tend to not pull punchs. My worries are of a different kind. I know I should expend to get better, but when you go through the blades khorn section, there not seem to be any units marked by others as "get X for new edition", everything is nerf this, this costs too much, this doesn't fit, this works different so is bad now. Only thing people seem to like are karnak and free dogs, but those are all in finecast and not sold at my store. Plus I can't make a list out of a karnak and dogs alone.

One thing to keep in mind is that the internet is a fairly negative place in general and group-think is also very real.  I'm not going to say that your army is great or not, but I will say that it might help if you ignore what a lot of the people online are saying and try some things out yourself.

How great some stuff is can also depend on who your regular opponents are and what they are playing.  Are you facing a majority of tournament optimized lists?  If so then that online advice might be true.  If you are playing games against newer people, or people running less optimized lists then you may find that the stuff you own works well for you and that you still enjoy it.  If you keep running into a brick-wall no matter what you do then that sucks and there is not much to say other than to build your army for fun or to pick something else that you will enjoy more.  That is not really the advice anyone wants to hear but it is the honest truth.

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1 hour ago, Karol said:

losing or winning is less of my problem right now. I don't have full 2000pts yet. The thing is everything I have or though I could buy cheaper people say is bad or is nerfed. And it doesn't seem to be just one person. One guy says X are bad, another say yeah I tested those too they don't work, third chimes in and say he has 30+ of the model and they still don't work and cost a lot right now, in both money and points. I think every unit from the start collecting and big starter was called out as bad.

Ignore them and give your models a go before you get despondent. There are a lot of nay sayers and over the top people on the internet. I don't know what units your talking about but almost everything in the original starter set from 3 yrs ago can still be competitive enough 

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The base size chart has been updated! 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_base_sizes_en2.pdf

From the Age of Sigmar FB page: "
Thanks for your feedback on the base sizes chart – turns out a few errors creep in when you're trying to work out the optimal footprint for over 600 fantasy miniatures! We've updated the chart to be more accurate and to ensure your models are on the best possible bases – download it here:"

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4 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

The base size chart has been updated! 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_base_sizes_en2.pdf

From the Age of Sigmar FB page: "
Thanks for your feedback on the base sizes chart – turns out a few errors creep in when you're trying to work out the optimal footprint for over 600 fantasy miniatures! We've updated the chart to be more accurate and to ensure your models are on the best possible bases – download it here:"

Jeah! That was quick! Props to GW. I am more than okay with the Ogor base sizes. Thumps up! 

And thanks to everyone sending in their E-Mails. I didn't think that GW would react so quick!

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17 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

The base size chart has been updated! 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_base_sizes_en2.pdf

From the Age of Sigmar FB page: "
Thanks for your feedback on the base sizes chart – turns out a few errors creep in when you're trying to work out the optimal footprint for over 600 fantasy miniatures! We've updated the chart to be more accurate and to ensure your models are on the best possible bases – download it here:"

Nice, my grot fanatics, cairn wraith and tomb banshee can stay on their 25mm bases along with my stone trolls on their 40mm. Only one I "guessed" wrong is my bat swarms, but they'll probably stay on 40mm. I don't play tournaments, and if I do, I don't think they'll be coming along. They shouldn't be in close combat anyway.

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4 hours ago, Karol said:

oh I dont have a problem with being destroyed by someone with more skill, xp and bigger collection. No problem with that, even if people here tend to not pull punchs. My worries are of a different kind. I know I should expend to get better, but when you go through the blades khorn section, there not seem to be any units marked by others as "get X for new edition", everything is nerf this, this costs too much, this doesn't fit, this works different so is bad now. Only thing people seem to like are karnak and free dogs, but those are all in finecast and not sold at my store. Plus I can't make a list out of a karnak and dogs alone.

Actually, you could make a list of just karnak and dogs lol. That's beside the point though. Aside from the brutal murder of murderhost and jump for bloodletters BoK isnt too bad off. We aren't god teir but we arent trash teir either. Skullcrushers remain a solid investment with their 4+ shrug vs magic and conditional battleline, bloodsecrators are more valuable now than before with the whole "magic is king now" and their inherent magic hate. Only minor complaint is that you cant take a maxed brass stampede and fit a gore pilgrims in anymore (again, aside from the brutal murder and dismemberment of murderhosts corpse)

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5 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

The most damage the doomwheel has done for me was killing my warpfire team, removing the last few wounds on my warp lightning cannon and causing 3 wounds to my grey seer, after rolling 2 6s for movement having declared I'd overcharge it and my opponent gleefully moving it through those units. 

The Doomwheel only deals Rolling Doom damage once, not for each unit it rolls over... (unless GW has once again abandoned clear english rules text)

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Am not sure I get the tier system. Maybe it is me understanding things wrong, I will re read the whole thread again. I got, seems like a false, idea that nothing is good anymore, that there are no battalions to run, and without battalions it is an auto lose for a melee army, because they pick if they want to go first or second.    I hope the 2018 GH will fix the nerfed stuff when it comes out, GW seemed to have gone to heavy handed with the nerfs for some armies in the new edition.

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4 minutes ago, Karol said:

Am not sure I get the tier system. Maybe it is me understanding things wrong, I will re read the whole thread again. I got, seems like a false, idea that nothing is good anymore, that there are no battalions to run, and without battalions it is an auto lose for a melee army, because they pick if they want to go first or second.    I hope the 2018 GH will fix the nerfed stuff when it comes out, GW seemed to have gone to heavy handed with the nerfs for some armies in the new edition.

Tiers are simply an artificial bracket for how good things are that the internet has decided upon. 

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Basically, top tier armies are the armies you will routinely see in the top 10ish% of spots of major tournaments, middle tier armies are the armies that can occassionally break into the top 10% but are more at home in the top 50% of players and bottom tier is everyone else. 

As for battalions, like i said brass stampede is still solid it only went up 20pts, same with gore pilgrims. I think gore pilgrims with 3 priests can be strong, since it'll increase the area of the bloodsecrators banner from 18" to 36" (forcing rerolls to every successful spell cast) while giving you 3 unbinds from the priests and letting the priests reroll failed prayers.

I dont think khorne is going to be placing in the top 10 of every major GT but i dont think they'll be so bad you should just throw them in storage.

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19 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Tiers are simply an artificial bracket for how good things are that the internet has decided upon. 

Yeah, I think tiers often become self fulfilling on the internet. "Army X is bad because a lot of people said so" becomes a bit of a mantra on the internet, but in reality there isn't a massive difference between most armies. Unlike Yu-Gi-Oh, where there's a world between tier 0 and tier 5 because tier 0 stops tier 5 from playing, AoS can be won through good planning and a bit of luck regardless of 'tier'. 

There is still a difference, don't get me wrong, but the difference is pretty small - most armies will stand a fighting chance. Except maybe Devoted of Sigmar. Poor Devoted of Sigmar. 

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12 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Yeah, I think tiers often become self fulfilling on the internet. "Army X is bad because a lot of people said so" becomes a bit of a mantra on the internet, but in reality there isn't a massive difference between most armies. Unlike Yu-Gi-Oh, where there's a world between tier 0 and tier 5 because tier 0 stops tier 5 from playing, AoS can be won through good planning and a bit of luck regardless of 'tier'. 

There is still a difference, don't get me wrong, but the difference is pretty small - most armies will stand a fighting chance. Except maybe Devoted of Sigmar. Poor Devoted of Sigmar. 

What I find interesting is the level of group think that goes into them.  I won't argue that some armies are better than others.

But most of the time over the years when I have seen the tier structure shaken up is when the players who experiment and ignore the internet group think break the commonly-accepted mold.  The tier structure is very much based on the current meta - and the current meta is defined to a fair degree by group think.

I'm not trying to make the case that every army is amazing.  I have played Orcs & Goblins waaaaay too long to hold that opinion.  But I will say that the internet has a large tendency to jump to certain things as established truth until some crafty player proves that wrong at another tournament.

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3 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

What I find interesting is the level of group think that goes into them.  I won't argue that some armies are better than others.

But most of the time over the years when I have seen the tier structure shaken up is when the players who experiment and ignore the internet group think break the commonly-accepted mold.  The tier structure is very much based on the current meta - and the current meta is defined to a fair degree by group think.

I'm not trying to make the case that every army is amazing.  I have played Orcs & Goblins waaaaay too long to hold that opinion.  But I will say that the internet has a large tendency to jump to certain things as established truth until some crafty player proves that wrong at another tournament.

Yeah, I think the most common thing tier lists lead to is the groupthink of 'this army is terrible and can't win' and 'playing this army is easy mode' when neither is really the case. It reminds me of when I was talking with some people in a GW store about Slaanesh in AoS, and they believed that nobody could possibly win with a Slaanesh list - it was the worst army ever. None of them had played it, mind you, but they knew it to be true. In reality it's a decent army, and can put up a good fight if used properly. 

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3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Yeah, I think the most common thing tier lists lead to is the groupthink of 'this army is terrible and can't win' and 'playing this army is easy mode' when neither is really the case. It reminds me of when I was talking with some people in a GW store about Slaanesh in AoS, and they believed that nobody could possibly win with a Slaanesh list - it was the worst army ever. None of them had played it, mind you, but they knew it to be true. In reality it's a decent army, and can put up a good fight if used properly. 

Spiderfang has no dedicated Allegiance Abilities and only 3 different units and you can still put up a decent fight with them.  They don't do great in all matches - but what 3-choice army would?

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6 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Spiderfang has no dedicated Allegiance Abilities and only 3 different units and you can still put up a decent fight with them.  They don't do great in all matches - but what 3-choice army would?

That reminds me that people on the Miniwargaming comments were complaining that spiderfang was too strong

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31 minutes ago, Enoby said:

That reminds me that people on the Miniwargaming comments were complaining that spiderfang was too strong

People read those comments? I scroll through occasionally and see endless nitpicking and criticism and the limitless lines of "x edition was better" "long live WHFB" etc. Miniwargaming seems to have a nice setup and a good crew, but by God their comment section can be bad sometimes. 

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50 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Yeah, I think the most common thing tier lists lead to is the groupthink of 'this army is terrible and can't win' and 'playing this army is easy mode' when neither is really the case. It reminds me of when I was talking with some people in a GW store about Slaanesh in AoS, and they believed that nobody could possibly win with a Slaanesh list - it was the worst army ever. None of them had played it, mind you, but they knew it to be true. In reality it's a decent army, and can put up a good fight if used properly. 

It really is amazing what an army can do once someone brings it up to competetive levels. People at my store know my Slaanesh list is nothing to mess with and that it swings hard unless properly dismantled. I had someone throw several units at my keeper of secrets, and not kill it due to my stacking of buffs and debuffs. 

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