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Destruction at SCGT


PlasticCraic

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13 hours ago, Kanamorf said:

I am sure there will be something for Destruction soon, I am not sure it will be AOS2 as the cant shoot out of combat change that has been spoken about may be the death of the Kunnin Rukk competitively, however I am hopeful.

 

Oh and last comment, the Fungoid Shaman was RUBBISH!

 

I would love to hear more on your thoughts about the DoK from a Bonesplitterz perspective. Blood Sisters/Stalkers and doomfire warlocks all look terrifying, but I don't know how point efficient they are as I haven't seen points for them. Plus Morathi is insanely tough. From an outsider looking in, they seem like a top tier army. I haven't faced them yet, so input would be appreciated.

Were there any Deepkin? If so, how did they do?

As for the Kunning Rukk, I doubt the changes will kill it. It will just need to include screening units to bubble wrap them. If the screen gets blown through, then yeah it can be shut down. Then again it's a 160point formation that can be disabled by dealing 6 wounds to a 6++ save model. With all the ranged wounds/mortal wounds being slung around it may be worth some thought before taking one.

Lastly, sorry to hear about the shaman, but I can't say its not expected. Which is a shame as it's a great model.

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On 5/10/2018 at 9:05 PM, Malakree said:

Issue is that in someways they dump on stuff which is already shafted. Unrendable saves are a cancer which should never have been in the game. (Modern ethereal is fine because it's positive AND negative) 

Their rule should be "cannot be reduced below 4+" because it's current form is just mortal wounds or gtfo.

I don't mind automatic wounds to represent overly powerful and deadly attacks.  I just mind how they have started to hand that stuff out like candy.  It is fine if it is kept as a somewhat rare and restrained ability.

For example, the Stardrake's ability to reroll failed saves and then cause mortal wounds in return.  Is there any reason that ability should exist?  I say no...

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51 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I don't mind automatic wounds to represent overly powerful and deadly attacks.  I just mind how they have started to hand that stuff out like candy.  It is fine if it is kept as a somewhat rare and restrained ability.

For example, the Stardrake's ability to reroll failed saves and then cause mortal wounds in return.  Is there any reason that ability should exist?  I say no...

I agree with this.  The biggest mistake they made in the whole game (imo) was when they dished out rerollable saves.  The whole 2+ RR1s thing made conventional damage completely obsolete, which meant they had to exponentially grow the number of mortal wounds available in the game.   And now ignore mortal wounds abilities are becoming more common as a knock on effect of that.

That's where things got away from them in my opinion, and it would take a hard reset to change that at this stage - which this second edition in all likelihood won't be capable of, since all existing Battletomes are to remain valid.  You could say that save rolls of 1 cannot be rerolled in Matched Play as an extension of the Rules of One, but that wouldn't address the patches that were made to fix the initial problem - the mortal wound cat is now well and truly out of the bag.

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1 hour ago, bonzai said:

As for the Kunning Rukk, I doubt the changes will kill it. It will just need to include screening units to bubble wrap them. If the screen gets blown through, then yeah it can be shut down. Then again it's a 160point formation that can be disabled by dealing 6 wounds to a 6++ save model. With all the ranged wounds/mortal wounds being slung around it may be worth some thought before taking one.

Yeah I thought the same thing.  The Kunnin Rukk is on the slide but while this new rule clearly won't help them - I don't  think that in itself is enough to make a huge impact.  

Because you have multiple units shooting in multiple phases, it's not that hard to clear off the unit that is tagging you then go about your business.  You can use your hero phase shooting and magic to clear off the unit that is tagging you, the wave behind could clear off whatever is tagging the wave in front to free it up, and so on.  And you have up to 20 activations with a full KR, how many of those are you actually going to be tagged for?  

There are plenty of other things that hurt the KR (that Idoneth thing that stops the only unit you can shoot at from being shot at?  Yikes!), but really this is still an army that can handle most things, and can't handle a few.  If you are one of the many armies that it can deal with, all this new rule about not shooting out of combat is doing is giving you a small amount of influence over the order in which your units get shot off.

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5 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

I agree with this.  The biggest mistake they made in the whole game (imo) was when they dished out rerollable saves.  The whole 2+ RR1s thing made conventional damage completely obsolete, which meant they had to exponentially grow the number of mortal wounds available in the game.   And now ignore mortal wounds abilities are becoming more common as a knock on effect of that.

That's where things got away from them in my opinion, and it would take a hard reset to change that at this stage - which this second edition in all likelihood won't be capable of, since all existing Battletomes are to remain valid.  You could say that save rolls of 1 cannot be rerolled in Matched Play as an extension of the Rules of One, but that wouldn't address the patches that were made to fix the initial problem - the mortal wound cat is now well and truly out of the bag.

I don't think there is so much of it that they can't fix it.  I expect that they will need to adjust warscrolls to some degree at the launch of the new edtion, and they will undoubtedly have to rewrite a number of battletomes over time.  They could easily decide that they are going to fix it, errata the warscrolls for the worst offenders, and then just deal with some of it sticking around until they rewrite those books and make these things go away as they rewrite.

Mortal wounds themselves are not that bad - even an army that specializes in them is not that horrible.  The problem is generally in how they have implemented those things and how they have given a lot of mortal wounds to forces that don't really seem like they need them.  For instance, Bloodletters Decapitating Blow is just a poor ability that should never have been put in - the same goes for the Star Drake mortal wound rebound.  And I wholeheartedly agree on the issue of rerollable saves and armor stack that can make traditional damage worthless.

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One thing they could do is make it so that you can reroll save's of a 1 after modifiers not before.

So the stardrake has "+2 to save" meaning that you roll a 1 which automatically fails, then you add the modifier your modifier, your save roll is now a "3" and can't be rerolled with the mirror shield. That would go a long way to fixing a bunch of the rerollable save's issues.

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1 hour ago, Malakree said:

One thing they could do is make it so that you can reroll save's of a 1 after modifiers not before.

So the stardrake has "+2 to save" meaning that you roll a 1 which automatically fails, then you add the modifier your modifier, your save roll is now a "3" and can't be rerolled with the mirror shield. That would go a long way to fixing a bunch of the rerollable save's issues.

Until you realise  that it would mean if you dont buff its save then if you hit it with rend 2 you would be able to re-roll saves of 1,2 and 3... because its a negative modifier.

I understand the sentiment but the mechanic would not work at all.

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2 hours ago, Tanka said:

Until you realise  that it would mean if you dont buff its save then if you hit it with rend 2 you would be able to re-roll saves of 1,2 and 3... because its a negative modifier.

I understand the sentiment but the mechanic would not work at all.

Actually if you look at the wording I gave it was pretty clear. Save rolls of a 1, not 1 or less.

So with no buffs and -2 rend they would get to reroll dice rolls of a 3, neither 1 or 2 would get rerolled. 

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9 hours ago, bonzai said:

I would love to hear more on your thoughts about the DoK from a Bonesplitterz perspective. Blood Sisters/Stalkers and doomfire warlocks all look terrifying, but I don't know how point efficient they are as I haven't seen points for them. Plus Morathi is insanely tough. From an outsider looking in, they seem like a top tier army. I haven't faced them yet, so input would be appreciated.

DoK is going to be a tough one to unlock. My first thought is that the Hags are the key piece that will get you the biggest benefit if you can kill them early. Think Savage Big Boss for KR. Witchbrew means the unit its put on can reroll wounds and is immune to battleshock, Ben had 3 Hags so his army was never going to run away. I did kill alot of witch elves but immune to battleshock is just so strong.

I also did not think about my screen and did my usual, space them out to 1" apart, well go figure elves are on 25mm bases and can get through... (I did not have the best weekend of setups :) ).

Morathi is a beat stick and will take effort to kill, I got 8 wound off her in 2 turns (2 of Ben's 2 of mine), theoretically if I had rolled 3 for every D3 mortals I sent at her she would have been dead, but that is way too much to ask and expect. I think it should be easy enough to control the damage Morathi does by feeding her units, maybe? In our game Ben just transformed her turn one and went loopy in snake form all game so I have no experience of her as a caster.

I let Ben go first, not sure that is such a good idea, but I would have to think about how I would have exploited the 1st turn if I had taken it. I am not sure I would have got the archers into range of the hags, and I am not sure in my first time against them I would have targeted them. I am sure I could have got my maniacs into one of the blocks of 30 and that would have been the end of the witch elves. There I have just pursuaded myself while writing this that taking the first turn is a good idea.

9 hours ago, bonzai said:

Were there any Deepkin? If so, how did they do?

As for the Kunning Rukk, I doubt the changes will kill it. It will just need to include screening units to bubble wrap them. If the screen gets blown through, then yeah it can be shut down. Then again it's a 160point formation that can be disabled by dealing 6 wounds to a 6++ save model. With all the ranged wounds/mortal wounds being slung around it may be worth some thought before taking one.

Lastly, sorry to hear about the shaman, but I can't say its not expected. Which is a shame as it's a great model.

@Soup Dragon had his Deepkin at the even and well done to him for getting them painted. He even had 2 hats to match his army.

Image result for clap emoji

I don't think he did very well with them as he was on a lower table than me in game 6. But I am sure he will have talked about them somewhere on TGA.

My issue around KR and not sooting out of combat (I love this rumoured rule change) is that it will be insanely easy to sacrifice cheap units to prevent them being effective. One unit of 80pts of Kaneriis, drop down charge, 90 shots wasted, 40 points of hyper fast goblin chariots getting a charge from around a screen, 90 shots wasted, I think the list could go on. I love that cheap throw away units have a purpose again :). It just means there is another way to lock the archers down.

On the Fungus Shaman, I have hope that once we can use all Command Abilities he will be better, but he was not the General of my army so I could not use it at all and his spell is just awful, D6" range and d3 mortals on a 7 cast. If he is that close to enough enemies to make that useful then he is a very dead goblin. I only got into position twice all weekend, and I was trying hard as he had no other use outside of the MP missions, he failed to cast once and did 2 wounds to Marathi and took off some witch elves and Sisters of Slaughter the second time.

 

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12 hours ago, Kanamorf said:

On the Fungus Shaman, I have hope that once we can use all Command Abilities he will be better, but he was not the General of my army so I could not use it at all and his spell is just awful, D6" range and d3 mortals on a 7 cast. If he is that close to enough enemies to make that useful then he is a very dead goblin. I only got into position twice all weekend, and I was trying hard as he had no other use outside of the MP missions, he failed to cast once and did 2 wounds to Marathi and took off some witch elves and Sisters of Slaughter the second time.

 

I suspect that the Fungus Shaman will get at least a small errata to his warscroll in the next edition.  He might not, but it would be unfortunate if not.  Or, they may rework his warscroll when they roll him into a full Moonclan battletome.

The reason I say that is that the text of his command ability specifies that he has to be the general to use it.  I hope in the next edition that does not end up being the case.  Other command abilities do not necessarily have that restriction and it is simply the core rules that only allows a general to use a command ability.  If we gain the ability to have different heroes trigger command abilities then it would be a real shame if the Fungus Shaman is still required to be the general to use his.

If they do indeed update that, then I really do hope that they tweak his personal spell as it really is ******.  Now, as soon as Moonclan gets a dedicated spell list then his utility should go way up.  Hopefully the new Magic supplement also grants him expanded abilities to make him more useful.  In those cases he would be ok to keep the spell he has, but it will still be fairly garbage and probably never used.  An ability that is never used is worthless and I would hope that it would get replaced.

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On 5/15/2018 at 2:26 PM, Malakree said:

Actually if you look at the wording I gave it was pretty clear. Save rolls of a 1, not 1 or less.

So with no buffs and -2 rend they would get to reroll dice rolls of a 3, neither 1 or 2 would get rerolled. 

right... so just for re-rolling saves of 1 we should change one of the fundamental rules of the game.

 

Yeah nah.

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