Warhammer Legends

[Twitch of Izalith]

1 hour ago, xking said:

They not bringing back a dead game.

Its not dead, its just in the Matrix now  . More people play Total War than play AoS.... and there are still some of us playing the tabletop version of WFB. 

I don't think anyone wants them to bring the game back - not the mechanics of it anyway, but the setting is still massively popular and since many of the current models are still compatible (having originated there) there could be a substantial benefit in bringing out a "Battles in the World that Was" supplement for AoS. I would buy it. So would a lot of people.

 

 

 

 

 

[Deepkin]

Whatever dude. GW clearly benefits from the Warhammer Fantasy license, and the remarkable success of the Warhammer Fantasy license elsewhere does not go unnoticed by GW (as evidenced by their continual use of the license).

Will they ever support it as a tabletop game, if even just as a Horus Heresy-style "minigame" based off the AoS rules? Maybe, maybe not, who knows? Releasing stuff like Warhammer Legends at least denotes GW's knowledge of the fact that people WANT Fantasy stuff. And where there is money, there is opportunity.

Unless your a GW dev, you have no more knowledge of their plans than I. And I admit, I want them to support Fantasy alongside AoS. And there is evidence they are supporting Fantasy, even if its only through open play rules, made to order models, and licensed video games/pnp rpgs. But the point is, and bear with me here because its hard to understand, they ARE supporting it, and they ARE making money off it.

So if they continue to make money off Fantasy as a tabletop game with more support, howecer cursory, it would not surprise me. It would also not surprise me if they dont support it. But the potential is obviously there.

[wast8]

3 minutes ago, xking said:

If Warhammer Fantasy battles was that beneficial, It would still be around on the tabletop. It is not coming back, sorry.   And AoS is Fantasy stuff.   AoS is there new Fantasy game, is generates for more money for them.

I'm crossing my fingers for a miracle. WHFantasy and AoS to coexist is really going to be cool and I think GW can still generate sales from both. Maybe this one week legends is just to test the market reaction.

[Twitch of Izalith]

Even if its just revised warscrolls for all the WFB army lists its enough to give everybody that wants it the opportunity to play games set in the warhammer world with the warhammer races - but using a modern and relevant rule set.

Having multiple settings and multiple versions of armies available is a positive thing.

 

 

[Lousy Beatnik]

Even if this release does brilliantly, you can't really tell if it's anything to do with the DE rules they released, or even anything really to do with live of WHFB.

I might just buy the manflayers just because I like the models, and didn't get around to buying them the first time.

I've seen plenty of people who stopped playing long before 8th edition wanting to buy them. Same with the 40k made to order. 

[HorticulusTGA]

As a table top game, WF is indeed "dead". It was not profitable, too expensive to get into, too much "time consuming" (in the hobby time and in play time), the regimental unites and square bases paradigme limited the possibilities of sculpting with new technology, and the nature of GW models manufacturing (i.e. the need of producing constant new releases) in a well established setting, even analogue to historical sometimes (because everything had quasi "canon" looks) was "limitative" in a way for the designers. All that made providing innovation in this context a very complexe task.

But as a setting, WF is still alive and well !

It totally can and does coexist alongside WAOS (and it's awesome this way) : 

1. WF is a great universes, with years of history ; this notably represented by BL Warhammer Chronicles.

2. WF is a fine product to licence, because of 1. the video game audience, while bigger and quite different (no "hobby" part, different "social skills" needed, etc.), is still close to the tabletop one (we nerdy geek  ). GW can make good money with licensing because, literally, it costs them nothing but some lawyer fee and bring in tons of cash. Same for 40k, tho. 

3. Because of its depth, WF was and still is a well established RPG setting ; it is only natural that for the "value for money" ratio, those kind of products still exists and prosper (thx Cubicle7).

4. Since day 1 in AOS, WF was also present with modern, up-to-date rules, in the Compendium 2015 and 2017, and in the GHb 2016 and 2017. Now it's being expanded with Warhammer Legends (and some 1 week-Made to Order service). But tabletop wise, for 4. WF lives in the AOS tabletop paradigm.

So yes WF and WAOS as settings can coexist, and quite well already.

Just remember that their was always way more people playing video games than tabletop games in general, and that the "hyper-narrative" players base who read Warhammer Chronicle and play WFRP are also different from the tabletop community (even if there is crossovers everywhere).

Now, strictly tabletop speaking, GW has a new, paying strategy, involving WAOS and then 40k. The "hyper-narrative" side of AOS is also being expanded, with a RPG and IIRC some video games too. We get more cards in our hand every years to play in the worlds we like, let's just enjoy that way !

[Jamopower]

Aren't the WH Legends just that, the rules for Old world setting for playing with the AoS rules? The made to order campaigns are theirchosen way to make money out of it in the tabletop world. 

[HorticulusTGA]

28 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

Aren't the WH Legends just that, the rules for Old world setting for playing with the AoS rules? The made to order campaigns are theirchosen way to make money out of it in the tabletop world. 

Yes for the rules, I think

But IMO Made to Order won't make them lots of money, because its 1. too few kits and 2. only one week. 

I like the concept but I think, even if its a bit "conceptual", that MTO is mostly for collectors, not tabletop gamers. 

[Envyus]

15 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Yes for the rules, I think

But IMO Made to Order won't make them lots of money, because its 1. too few kits and 2. only one week. 

I like the concept but I think, even if its a bit "conceptual", that MTO is mostly for collectors, not tabletop gamers. 

It's mainly to allow Dark Elf players to complete a collection.

Though I have no idea why they discontinued Lokhir Fellheart. He is an awesome model and would work great as an alternative Black Ark fleet-master. (Somthing they even point out about him.) 

 

I am also of the opinion that Fantasy's Lore and Age of Sigmars Lore can co exist. And that I think it would be great for them to spin off Warhammer Legends into a sub game. 

[RuneBrush]

10 hours ago, Enochi said:

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-dark-elves-en.pdf

I would call you a liar sir. I checked and updated Azyr and the Dark elves are still on there. They are still on the website in the link provided above and are still on the Warhammer Community Warscroll Builder. 

Have a look at the actual page where they list the compendiums: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules and they've removed the Dark Elf compendium PDF although they don't appear to have removed the file yet.

Also a gentle warning not to call people liars even in jest, the internet doesn't translate humour like this very well.

[Kaleb Daark]

Simply put it's this...

GW always said on the eve of AoS's release that nobody would find their army redundant from fantasy.

What they were saying was, there's a new system coming - but you'll be equipped with all the tools you need to play that new system in the form of the compendiums.

They also said that although these old world armies could be played and were current, they would receive no more support or updates.  New factions would rise in the new game world with new lore and models.

This was already hinted at in the aesthetic of the last wave of models the year or two before AoS released - a very different look and feel and all leading up to end times.

It would only be a matter of time before GW stopped playing lip service to players with older armies such as Tomb Kings, Brets, empire etc, both at events and within the literature.  Unfortunately there comes a time when it's time to move on.  They're a business and they need to sell models.  There is no value in it for them if dude on forum is still smashing on about his 10,000 point bret army being nerfed but in reality hasn't put a penny in their till for over ten years.

They are not only a game system but also a model supplier and manufacturer, they need their public to be on board with both.

Sadly its hard for most of us to swallow especially as long time fantasy battle players but that's the way it is.  trust me, I've got two forgeworld war mammoths and the thought that FW / GW will decide to pull the plug on their warscrolls / points is something I'm dreading.

With regards to FW and heresy slowing down, not the case.  They really just have too much to get on with at the moment, and with Alan Bligh passing away the mantle of Mr Heresy is a difficult and massive one to fill with such  passion and knowledge.  Also, they could never have predicted how much it would take off.  Remember although they are a part of GW their remit and capability is massively reduced compared to the main business.  They are no different to an elite car manufacturer's bespoke division where your output is tin compared to the parent, but your product commands a much higher boutique price.  And so it is with Forgeworld.

Heresy was always nice until the prospero and calth box sets, it saw a flood of new blood, but at it's heart it's still a massively expensive undertaking by the time you throw in vehicles etc.

 

But back to the topic of this thread.

The way I see legends is the final salute to the old game systems' armies from GW.  You get a proper battletome immortalising the army for one last time.  After that, it goes to where it's rightful rresting place is - in the legend that was the old world. 

No points?  We all know what cheese and filth is deep down, and what good friendly play is.  You know when you're being that guy and you know when you're not that guy.

I think this is easier for old school RPG dudes to get behind than the one combo to rule them guys.  I also believe that if you're into cutting edge meta, tournament slaughter lists and  win at all costs, then legends really isn't for you.   I am not one of those guys, I'm a self confessed story stinker to to use the garagehammer term.  But my local store is now full of WAAC players and filth farmers.  It's not about anything other than will it win at a tournament.  On the plus side it's those same guys who will pour money in the till like water out of a tap to ensure a winning army. 

Tombkings - the general consensus up at the mothership seems to be that they will bring nothing back by bringing them back.  So as of now, they're very dead.  However never say never.  Personally I liked them-  I always liked how they were a skeleton army without wraiths and zombies etc.  The constructs were also very cool.

AoS is evolving.  June is it's third birthday and you can be sure that by the year end we'll see cool stuff and finally say goodbye for good to some old stuff.  They've done it before many times and they'll do it again.  Just remember that as much as GW love you, they need you to keep spending, that's your side of the bargain.

As a final note, we should bear in mind that had Kirby still been CEO, you'd have none of this, no community pages, no sneaky peeks, no nod to the past.  You'd have just been told "this is the new... deal with it".

 

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Tombkings - the general consensus up at the mothership seems to be that they will bring nothing back by bringing them back.  So as of now, they're very dead.  However never say never.  Personally I liked them-  I always liked how they were a skeleton army without wraiths and zombies etc.  The constructs were also very cool.

In case of Tomb Kings. GW could give Deathrattle some Archers, Mounted Archers, Chariots and some sort of Priest and you would have a more complete army where you can use some of the models. Some of the units were reduntant between both armies. Don't know about the other units.

[Kaleb Daark]

25 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

In case of Tomb Kings. GW could give Deathrattle some Archers, Mounted Archers, Chariots and some sort of Priest and you would have a more complete army where you can use some of the models. Some of the units were reduntant between both armies. Don't know about the other units.

I'm totally behind you on this - apparently it (Tomb Kings) keeps getting brought up at the managers meetings and that's the default response at this time.

[Enochi]

3 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Simply put it's this...

GW always said on the eve of AoS's release that nobody would find their army redundant from fantasy.

What they were saying was, there's a new system coming - but you'll be equipped with all the tools you need to play that new system in the form of the compendiums.

They also said that although these old world armies could be played and were current, they would receive no more support or updates.  New factions would rise in the new game world with new lore and models.

This was already hinted at in the aesthetic of the last wave of models the year or two before AoS released - a very different look and feel and all leading up to end times.

It would only be a matter of time before GW stopped playing lip service to players with older armies such as Tomb Kings, Brets, empire etc, both at events and within the literature.  Unfortunately there comes a time when it's time to move on.  They're a business and they need to sell models.  There is no value in it for them if dude on forum is still smashing on about his 10,000 point bret army being nerfed but in reality hasn't put a penny in their till for over ten years.

They are not only a game system but also a model supplier and manufacturer, they need their public to be on board with both.

Sadly its hard for most of us to swallow especially as long time fantasy battle players but that's the way it is.  trust me, I've got two forgeworld war mammoths and the thought that FW / GW will decide to pull the plug on their warscrolls / points is something I'm dreading.

With regards to FW and heresy slowing down, not the case.  They really just have too much to get on with at the moment, and with Alan Bligh passing away the mantle of Mr Heresy is a difficult and massive one to fill with such  passion and knowledge.  Also, they could never have predicted how much it would take off.  Remember although they are a part of GW their remit and capability is massively reduced compared to the main business.  They are no different to an elite car manufacturer's bespoke division where your output is tin compared to the parent, but your product commands a much higher boutique price.  And so it is with Forgeworld.

Heresy was always nice until the prospero and calth box sets, it saw a flood of new blood, but at it's heart it's still a massively expensive undertaking by the time you throw in vehicles etc.

 

But back to the topic of this thread.

The way I see legends is the final salute to the old game systems' armies from GW.  You get a proper battletome immortalising the army for one last time.  After that, it goes to where it's rightful rresting place is - in the legend that was the old world. 

No points?  We all know what cheese and filth is deep down, and what good friendly play is.  You know when you're being that guy and you know when you're not that guy.

I think this is easier for old school RPG dudes to get behind than the one combo to rule them guys.  I also believe that if you're into cutting edge meta, tournament slaughter lists and  win at all costs, then legends really isn't for you.   I am not one of those guys, I'm a self confessed story stinker to to use the garagehammer term.  But my local store is now full of WAAC players and filth farmers.  It's not about anything other than will it win at a tournament.  On the plus side it's those same guys who will pour money in the till like water out of a tap to ensure a winning army. 

Tombkings - the general consensus up at the mothership seems to be that they will bring nothing back by bringing them back.  So as of now, they're very dead.  However never say never.  Personally I liked them-  I always liked how they were a skeleton army without wraiths and zombies etc.  The constructs were also very cool.

AoS is evolving.  June is it's third birthday and you can be sure that by the year end we'll see cool stuff and finally say goodbye for good to some old stuff.  They've done it before many times and they'll do it again.  Just remember that as much as GW love you, they need you to keep spending, that's your side of the bargain.

As a final note, we should bear in mind that had Kirby still been CEO, you'd have none of this, no community pages, no sneaky peeks, no nod to the past.  You'd have just been told "this is the new... deal with it".

 

Wow you hit the GW Fanboy Kool-aid hard don't you? Even spike it with a dash of "How dare people actually like a competitive game" mentality. Here is the thing though some of us use old models....but still buy new ones upgrade our force. I know that's a concept that might be hard for you to wrap your mind around but work with me a little here.

[Verengard]

An Old World Expandion for AoS with army composition rules and poits would be amazing. 

They can keep making their Legacy compendiums with named characters, maybe some day they will expand them. 

The only problem is that they should not erase Brets, TK and the leftover units from matched play... 

[Kaleb Daark]

4 hours ago, Enochi said:

Wow you hit the GW Fanboy Kool-aid hard don't you? Even spike it with a dash of "How dare people actually like a competitive game" mentality. Here is the thing though some of us use old models....but still buy new ones upgrade our force. I know that's a concept that might be hard for you to wrap your mind around but work with me a little here.

no. its not about the kool-aid, its about facing the reality of what GW are doing as a business.

For the record I loved my fantasy battle, I wanted to do brets and TKs as the next thing after my chaos.  I was robbed of both of those.

I have two forgeworld mammoths and a ton of other stuff which is no longer usable going back to 1st ed.  I still proxy them for things in my current armies,  but when it comes to things like dogs of war and the like, well, I'm kinda stuffed.   So yes, its a concept that I can work with you on.

Those guys with their competitive game mentality are actually my friends, and all I'm saying is that they love the cutting edge game, and I'm more of a campaign and narrative kinda guy.  hardly the " how dare they like a competitive game mentality as you put it".

To paraphrase the above post - 

GW want you to spend money - its how they make their money.

GW would prefer you to buy new plague bearers when they release them instead of using your vintage ones

GW are giving you a battletome for the dark elf armies of fantasy because as you've rightly worked out, they want to cut all the old stuff loose and move on to whatever they got planned.  How you choose to use it is your bag, but they won't be supporting you in any way as they got new stuff to be getting on with.

I done my raging when AoS hit, I had all of these arguments / debates like many of us did with the store manager giving it the full WTF.

We heard nothing for six months and then this game with no points and some wierd fluff lands.  More WTF.

Old RPG dudes could get their head around it but everyone else struggled.  Not much WTFing from me but truck loads from my tournament playing friends.

When we finished WTF-ing we realised that GW were not interested in WTF-ers, who as far as they were concerned could just do one if that was the attitude.

KIrby got pushed out, Rowntree climbed to take the driving seat and then they suddenly we had a new face and new attitude.  I stopped WTFing and jumped on the bus for the ride, and to be honest its been ok.

Do I go out and buy everything?  -nah. I'm too poor and too picky for that, and if I see one more overpriced hero in a prancing knee up in the air pose like they've all been to ballet school  I'll scream.  Do I like everything they're doing, of course not, but compared to what they were, and where they were even you must surely be able to admit that we as a community are in a better place.

Dude, nothing is perfect nor will it be. But that's life and really, I've got way more things to get super stressed about than pushing toy soldiers around, as much as I hate the fact that I can't mark my mammoths or skin wolves or that my slaves to darkness cant cut a slice of cheese effectively.

but yea.. i get what you're saying,  I'll work with you a little on this one.

[Kaleb Daark]

12 hours ago, Envyus said:

It's mainly to allow Dark Elf players to complete a collection.

I am also of the opinion that Fantasy's Lore and Age of Sigmars Lore can co exist. And that I think it would be great for them to spin off Warhammer Legends into a sub game. 

This would be a great thing to happen.

they should have just released the 9th ed rulebook as the legends rules just like fw did with the age of darkness rules.

[TheOtherJosh]

For using these in play in casual games, I recall that prior to the GHB 2016 there were a number of gamer created “points” equivalents in use.

I recall the use of “wounds” and a variety of points systems that were in use based on calculations based on unit stats. 

Or Bring X number of warscrolls.

While certainly not perfect it’s a valid method to do rough estimates.

Technically ... for legacy 8e armies against legacy 8e armies one might be able to do points entirely based on the points from 8e.

And still get to benefit from the streamlined play rules in AoS.

Edited May 8, 2018 by TheOtherJosh

[SuperHappyTime]

3 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

For using these in play in casual games, I recall that prior to the GHB 2016 there were a number of gamer created “points” equivalents in use.

I recall the use of “wounds” and a variety of points systems that were in use based on calculations based on unit stats. 

Or Bring X number of warscrolls.

While certainly not perfect it’s a valid method to do rough estimates.

Technically ... for legacy 8e armies against legacy 8e armies one might be able to do points entirely based on the points from 8e.

And still get to benefit from the streamlined play rules in AoS.

Or just use the points from the original GHB.

[Jamopower]

It's also good to always remember, that the points presented in the general's handbooks are designed with the matched play scenarios in mind, and in different kind of scenarios, they might not result to any better balance than using old points or eyeballing.  They are just tools available to players to organize their games. Good example are the batallions in a scenario where the attacker takes the first turn. The "one drop cost" doesn't make much sense in those. Similar cases are scenarios that put lots of value to certain units, like the priests that have important role in many of the Realmgate wars scenarios. Having less/none priests should be somehow compensated if the winning condition is strongly dependant on the amount of priests in the army.

On top of the scenarios, the terrain has also a strong influence. In a cityfight the long range shooting units might be overcosted and some other units undercosted etc.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jamopower

[Lightbox]

Is it bad that warhammer legends is kind of making me want to put together a legacy dark elf army?

 

I think it's mostly that sorceress on cold one model, it is a lovely sculpt. Tempted to pick one up and run a dark elf mordheim band sometime so I can use it... even if they are apparently a bit op in mordheim.

 

I quite like the warhammer legends, they didn't have to do it and sure it's making money from people's nostalgia but I think these made to order things are nice. If you dislike them you needn't buy them and tbh we've known since the first GHB really that a lot of the old WHFB wasn't going to be supported in the future. It's a shame but it's something at least. For me at least it's tempting me to look at a small force and do some occasional just for fun old world style narrative games. Though as I only got into the fantasy side through AoS I'm going to have to look up lore sometime. Might be time to wait and see what happens for bretonnians as  I already have some of them (and would love some Pegasus knights tbh, such lovely models, though not sure if they'd do made to order for any plastics).

[Gaz Taylor]

++ Mod Hat On ++

20 hours ago, Enochi said:

Wow you hit the GW Fanboy Kool-aid hard don't you? Even spike it with a dash of "How dare people actually like a competitive game" mentality. Here is the thing though some of us use old models....but still buy new ones upgrade our force. I know that's a concept that might be hard for you to wrap your mind around but work with me a little here.

Very very simple - I know you are upset but this doesn't mean you can react to other members in such an manner. Please don't do this again.

For Everybody else

Again, I know for some people this is a touchy subject and in someways reopening some wounds but very very simple - Be nice to each other. It's fine not to like this change from GW but if you are going to react, please do it constructively. 

[Twitch of Izalith]

On 08/05/2018 at 2:06 AM, xking said:

You can play in old setting yourself, You don't need GW to do that.   

But I'm going leave it alone.

You could use that statement to invalidate every argument for GW doing anything rules or lore wise. We all have the option to make it up ourselves amongst our immediate gaming group. 

I already stated several times that I still play WFB and that I play AoS set in the old world as much as I play AoS set in the Mortal realms. What I'm excited about is that GW are doing something which expands and enriches a way that I like to enjoy the game. Official rules and supplements also make those types of games more accessible to a wider audience and open up opportunities for me to play a greater variety of gamers - not just people in my immediate group who are signed up to a set of house rules.

I'm also really excited by what they are doing with standard matched play - the last 4 battletomes have been massively encouraging for the future of pick up and tournament games with a greater degree of flavour, balance and build options than ever before. However 2000 points matched play is not the only way to play even if its the easiest and least requiring of imagination -

so forgive me for enjoying other aspects of the game.

Its a bit disappointing to see comments around the internet which all basically boil down to "this is not interesting to me personally, therefore its a waste of GW's time"

The fact they are investing resources into making legacy armies and settings more playable and accessible to everyone is surprising and much appreciated by many people.

 

[syph0n]

My personal feeling towards Legends, mostly, was that I was gutted to lose the Compendium models like Bolt Thrower and Sorceress on Drakespawn to matched play.

1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Its a bit disappointing to see comments around the internet which all basically boil down to "this is not interesting to me personally, therefore its a waste of GW's time"

The fact they are investing resources into making legacy armies and settings more playable and accessible to everyone is surprising and much appreciated by many people.

 

However, I think a bit of pragmatism is needed, and this comment sums it up. Legends to me is akin to when a new games console launches. Just because there's a PS4, that doesn't suddenly invalidate the PS3 or your ability to play it. Yes, you can't play across the platforms, yes, you won't have as many opponents. But, the console hasn't spontaneously combusted either! 

In this instance, we also have the benefit of two systems of play available side by side using the same core rules. I would also like to bet that it wasn't a huge consumption of resources to produce Legends, which lets be honest, is just to help shift old models. 

GW's core business is the models. The game is an excuse to buy more of those models. It's an excuse to justify grown men and women painting and sticking and moving them about. Moving the lore on gives room to produce more models. If GW aren't profitable, we couldn't have this debate, because there wouldn't be a game system to play or a load of models to buy. 

Again, still gutted to lose Compendium but I accept the game moves on and I at least have a set of rules to use with those old models. 

[Kamose]

On 5/9/2018 at 8:06 AM, Twitch of Izalith said:

Its a bit disappointing to see comments around the internet which all basically boil down to "this is not interesting to me personally, therefore its a waste of GW's time"

 

The really disappointing thing is that you just summarized 90% of the online 40k discussion and all of the BoLS comment section. ?