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10 minutes ago, Karol said:

I don't know what WAAC is, but am assuming it is the opposit of narrative/open play. If am wrong, I sorry. I don't really understand what would be good about such a scenario. You could just check both players collections, build the most "not die" for one and the most "kill" army for the other, out of the models they have, then simulate the rolls,and you would get who wins on avarge. Seems ultra boring, not to mention how this is suppose to be played when one player is a new one. A veteran with a big collection will always be able to maximise and build a good list of either sort, but a new player with a normal army would just get crushed by something that is optimised for the scenario being played.

I’d say not to worry there’s 3 ways to play for a reason. If matchplay is he one for you there’s no problem with that.  I don’t think anybody here is going to pursade you that open/ narrative is the way to go as you seem to want something different from your Warhammer something which is better catered for with Matchplayed. 

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It is not a question of making me or someone else play the game this or that way. I would be the last one to say that matched play is some sort of super balanced, fun for everyone way to play. I just don't get it, to not be off topic. Why GW did this thing with the rules. Why make rules for a small part of how people play the game, when it really doesn't take much time of effort to just add point costs. If they want to phase the model line out, then why troll with pretending your making rules to play with those models. Why not just legends a place where are fantasy styled models, you can buy.  If GW does not care about dark elf players, and it is not like they have to or anything, why do something like that. It just makes people angrier. I just look at this topic, we are on the 6th page of it. If this was just, GW is selling old dark elfs for a week, no rules no nothing, it would probablly be like 2 pages long.  Not to mention the fact that now all people that play other legacy armies, are going to wonder, if GW is going to seraphon their army or are they going the elf way with them.

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25 minutes ago, Karol said:

Well given the fact you can never be sure if the other guy wants you to have fun, but you do, aside for maybe masochists, want to have fun yourself. It is IMO a logical assumption to expect everyone doing everyone to have fun themselfs first. And this means that any deviation from a strickt rules system and opening doors to ways of removing those limits would just kill any form of interaction. No new players would buy new armies, and all the players already with armies would have to play each other over and over again. And this means either a constant arms race between people, or some armies being better no matter what you buy. Now am not saying that two people can't have fun playing a game, I just don't think that the chance of both of them having fun at the same time is much lower, if one adds the social aspect in to the game.

You see this is very much a culture thing i was talking about.  It sounds so bizarre that you would expect people to only think of themselves. 

But then maybe thats why the British are so good a queuing ... after you, no, after you ?

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I don't get the really competitive people. The games have never really been designed to played competitively, and to be honest if you are THAT competitive why would you play warhammer to get your ego hit? Why wouldn't you play a truly competitive game? or do sports or something? I don't get what satisfaction there is to be gained from winning at something that is barely a real competition in the first place? You are just kidding yourself.

So for example. The nerdy thing I love as much as warhammer is the Dark Souls series of video games - and Souls players tend to think of themselves as kinda hardcore gamers because the game (early editions anyway) is a little challenging to get into. I used to get really pleased with myself in online multiplayer until I met some gamers who describe Souls as "a combat game for people who aren't good enough to play a real fighting game" LOL i wasn't at all offended but it was a bit of an eye opener for my perspective on these things.

I'm not saying I don't think skill is involved - its certainly possible to be a good player or a bad player - but their is enough imbalance and random elements that the results of a game can never be truly claimed as the sole responsibility of the players. To achieve that you would need unit types with identical rules and stat lines and combat results would have to be based on numerical absolutes - not dice.

I always play to win - Its a battle afterall - but if I was interested in "Smashing peoples faces" (being a term I have heard tournament players use) I would get into boxing.. 

 

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Spending money for an army that can't be used for matched play is bit of a misleading thing as they sell those models that don't have an up to date AoS scroll only during this week... Of course there is the second hand market, but you can also buy stuff second hand that has had official rules last time in 80s.. 

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7 minutes ago, stato said:

You see this is very much a culture thing i was talking about.  It sounds so bizarre that you would expect people to only think of themselves. 

But then maybe thats why the British are so good a queuing ... after you, no, after you ?

I understand that post WWII Britain was not a american 50s type of heaven, but unless you had to stand in a line for toilet paper for 2-3 hours, every day, you don't really know what queuing is.  But I agree with you that people are different and may have different views on most basic of stuff. I mean lets say an avarge, and again we thought playing here, person in one place can buy a box a week and in another place the avarge dude can buy one small box of week every month and one big kit every 4-5 months, your going to get drasticly different communities. And technicly both could be playing the same game be it narrative or not.

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2 minutes ago, Karol said:

but unless you had to stand in a line for toilet paper for 2-3 hours, every day, you don't really know what queuing is. 

We would have found a way to make the queue last even longer by being polite but inefficient - its what we do.

The best example  - at the complete opposite end of the scale from toilet paper -  is if you go to a ski resort in scotland (yes there are a couple of small ones) everyone queues for the lifts in a very orderly manner and when one line gets to long somebody starts a second line next to it so as not to get in the way of people who are actually skiing. If someone gets confused and joins the wrong line everyone looks at them disapprovingly and talks loudly to each other about it instead of just explaining to the person... particularly if they are a snowboarder. Its hilarious, annoying and takes a really long time.

In France or Italy everyone just shuffles towards the lifts in a disorderly scrum and pushes children out of the way and stuff and everybody gets on the lift in no time - even the children :)

Totally off topic, I know. I'll apologise because I'm British.

And I suppose thats the bit thats on topic  - Warhammer is a very British game. Its based on a social contract between 2 people - a gentlemans agreement if you like and if you play it with that in mind - that the point is that you both enjoy playing a game with some models you spent hundreds of £ buying and hundreds of hours building and painting, you will have a fun few hours whatever system you use to choose armies.

In that context the release of the Warhammer legends warscrolls should make sense but basically they did it because lots of people asked for rules for their WFB armies in the community survey.

The limited re-release of the models is simply a way to capitalise on the work financially as well as in a PR sense - and possibly a way to justify the use of resources to the management.

 

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24 minutes ago, Karol said:

It is not a question of making me or someone else play the game this or that way. I would be the last one to say that matched play is some sort of super balanced, fun for everyone way to play. I just don't get it, to not be off topic. Why GW did this thing with the rules. Why make rules for a small part of how people play the game, when it really doesn't take much time of effort to just add point costs. If they want to phase the model line out, then why troll with pretending your making rules to play with those models. Why not just legends a place where are fantasy styled models, you can buy.  If GW does not care about dark elf players, and it is not like they have to or anything, why do something like that. It just makes people angrier. I just look at this topic, we are on the 6th page of it. If this was just, GW is selling old dark elfs for a week, no rules no nothing, it would probablly be like 2 pages long.  Not to mention the fact that now all people that play other legacy armies, are going to wonder, if GW is going to seraphon their army or are they going the elf way with them.

Well all the Dark Aelf stuff one can still buy  (with exception of the limited made to order stuff) has points and is available for Matchplay through the AoS factions.  Darkling covens, Order Serpentis are still there and Daughters of Khaine were expanded.  Warhammer Legends is a separate different thing side by side with  AoS. I’d expect to see a separate Lizardman rules release entirely independent of the Seraphon 

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16 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

We would have found a way to make the queue last even longer by being polite but inefficient - its what we do.

I don't think that is possible, and I don't mean the polite stuff, I mean the longer stuff. I remember standing in a line to buy what would eventually be a carpet for 2 weeks, you often stood in line to buy anything, just to get rid of the money. I didn't go school for that time it was 4 hours every day, and that my grandmother would come and stand the other 4 hours. The store would close, the line order would be checked and marked on collective list. And the next day it would be the same. But you shouldn't bait me, see the normal thing for us when we meet is to list all the bad things, that happened to use since we last seen each other, and how our stuff was much worse then the other persons.

 

21 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

And I suppose thats the bit thats on topic  - Warhammer is a very British game. Its based on a social contract between 2 people - a gentlemans agreement if you like and if you play it with that in mind - that the point is that you both enjoy playing a game with some models you spent hundreds of £ buying and hundreds of hours building and painting, you will have a fun few hours whatever system you use to choose armies.

Yeah I get this, and from short time at an english school, my expiriance is that if two people from different groups meet at a school or club or bathroom, you get an instant "I will stab you if you turn your back on me" situation. Or at least that was my expiriance going for a year and a half to St Gregories School, and it is not like I was the only Pole there or something. I understand that people in general in Poland are in it for themselfs, maybe for the closest family, and that is all, but I have never seen anything close to the divivde between people that I saw in London. The only thing close to it is Krakow, and it is an oddity in Poland, because it is divided between two groups of hooligans.

 

26 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Well all the Dark Aelf stuff one can still buy  (with exception of the limited made to order stuff) has points and is available for Matchplay through the AoS factions.  Darkling covens, Order Serpentis are still there and Daughters of Khaine were expanded.  Warhammer Legends is a separate different thing side by side with  AoS. I’d expect to see a separate Lizardman rules release entirely independent of the Seraphon 

Do you think GW is going to do the same with dwarfs or orcs, of the non bonespliter or ironjaws type? The dispossed and the free people have AoS styled boxs, and even AoS fluff. No idea, if they are "safe" armies to pick up.

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47 minutes ago, Karol said:

 

Do you think GW is going to do the same with dwarfs or orcs, of the non bonespliter or ironjaws type? The dispossed and the free people have AoS styled boxs, and even AoS fluff. No idea, if they are "safe" armies to pick up.

They will do the same for all the old WFB armies they’ll have a Warhammer Legends rule set.  The AoS factions will remain separate. So there’ll be an Orcs and Goblins Warhammer Legends that’ll have Greenskins, Black Orcs , Savage Orcs and all the other stuff that was in WFB. Bonesplitterz and Ironjawz will remain as AoS Factions. Stuff that was only released for AoS won’t be in the Warhammer Legends rules like Orruk Brutes for example. 

So for example the models Currently Sold as Ardboyz will have a Warscroll and Matchplay points as part of the Ironjawz faction but will also have a Warscroll as Black Orcs in the Warhammer Legends: Orcs and Goblins when it come out. 

Edited by Ollie Grimwood
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I think the issue is vastly different perspectives on life and the game, for example
 

I really enjoy narrative games, even if they last lets say 3 hours. It is the story, the fun and the banter around the story that amuses me, I love narrative campaigns even more, shaping and developing your army based on ingame events (not whats competitive) to tell the tale. Your freeguild defended a village shrine? Add some flagellants as the fanatical villagers join your motley warband. That enemy hero giving you a hard time? Nightrunner assassin joins the mix as the skaven lords get testy and so on.

I would not get 3 x that enjoyment from hammering out 3 competitive games at 1 hour each with minimal chatter and net lists. Its a social hobby

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14 hours ago, Karol said:

Wouldn't it create the problem though that everyone would want to play their games in a different way, so to actually play the game a new player would have to start with a vast collection [...]

Discussing what the limitations of the game is part of that initial “let’s have a game” negotiation.

For starting players, (and those of us who are more inclined to the painting aspect) a collection is part of ‘collect what looks cool, and what you enjoy’. (That’s very applicable to the Legends side of things. Because at the end of the day,  you’ve got some awesome looking display pieces to show off.)

A starting player with just a starter box or one of the mini-Warband boxes or the AoS starter set would let folks know that this is what they have.

It wouldn’t be out of the question to base the game on what the player with the smallest set of available options has available, especially if they are the newest player. (I personally would encourage it.)

And in a good community, folks will work within the limitations of what someone has.

Our objective as AoS players should be to encourage a good community.

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It doesn't seem to have anything to do with good or bad, for it to work you would just have to be 100% sure that most opponents are not going to overpower you with their better collections day one of you starting to play, because even if it was only a 50/50 chance it would still better to got for a power list.

I dont understand the start collecting  argument , most of the time people here avoid the starter sets, because most of them are really bad value for money.

2 hours ago, Melcavuk said:

I really enjoy narrative games, even if they last lets say 3 hours.

wouldn't you just be kicked out of the store, if the game took that long, we have an hour to play at there is always a line waiting for a free table. Even when tables are reserved.

 

2 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

So for example the models Currently Sold as Ardboyz will have a Warscroll and Matchplay points as part of the Ironjawz faction but will also have a Warscroll as Black Orcs in the Warhammer Legends: Orcs and Goblins when it come out. 

Cool. I don't know anyone who would like to play orcs, or destruction for that matter. But it would be nice if they gave people the option to actually use their models.

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Depending on how busy the store is, the event I’m running and how many people are involved the odds of my getting kicked out are slim. The conclusion of the last Sigmar narrative campaign I ran was a 6 player game that lasted 5-6 hours on an 8 foot board in a GW store

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So strange seeing all the different gaming cultures.

For my part me and my friends link up, hang out and play once or twice a week. It’s something we all like doing so we play, hang out and just enjoy the game.

 We use whatever scrolls are in the books, play chill and do dumb stuff in the game if it will be funner or more interesting. Sometimes we have more serious games, which we keep a record of just for lolz.

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6 hours ago, Karol said:

I dont understand the start collecting  argument , most of the time people here avoid the starter sets, because most of them are really bad value for money.

What the actual feth? Are you from Poland or the Upside Down? How is, say, Start Collecting Seraphon not value for money?

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12 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

What the actual feth? Are you from Poland or the Upside Down? How is, say, Start Collecting Seraphon not value for money?

I said most of the time. They are most often a trap, give you stuff for "cheap" techniclly, but those stuff you get for "free" you will never use.

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Depending on how busy the store is, the event I’m running and how many people are involved the odds of my getting kicked out are slim. The conclusion of the last Sigmar narrative campaign I ran was a 6 player game that lasted 5-6 hours on an 8 foot board in a GW store

That is very nice. I think we only have one GW store in warsaw. 5-6 hour games would not happen here, unless those were the store owners closest friends.

Edited by Karol
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6 minutes ago, Karol said:

That is very nice. I think we only have one GW store in warsaw. 5-6 hour games would not happen here, unless those were the store owners closest friends.

I am simply curious - is the GW store the only place to play?

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4 minutes ago, Karol said:

I said most of the time. They are most often a trap, give you stuff for "cheap" techniclly, but those stuff you get for "free" you will never use.

I looked through all the Star Collecting sets avaible for Age of Sigmar and all of them besides the first Stormcasts one (3 snapfit paladins doesnt work without the big Starter Set) and the Kharadron one kinda (Gunhaulers are bad now but will most likely be fixed in the next Handbook) are really good and useful. 

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7 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Such as...?

the small ship and the gun dudes from the Kharadron starter. Retributors in the Stormcast box, the entire orc, beastclaw and striders box as they give an illusion that those armies are valid or can be bought for cheap. The Runesmitter in the Slyer box. It is even worse for w40k, where boxs drip with dreadnoughts, termintors etc

 

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I am simply curious - is the GW store the only place to play?

I never been there, but from what I have been told there is 0 gaming going on in the Warsaw GW store. All other games are done at tournaments or stores that sell table top stuff.

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I looked through all the Star Collecting sets avaible for Age of Sigmar and all of them besides the first Stormcasts one (3 snapfit paladins doesnt work without the big Starter Set) and the Kharadron one kinda (Gunhaulers are bad now but will most likely be fixed in the next Handbook) are really good and useful. 

And from the list I have seen being played the only save ones are the tzeench, nurgle, lizard people ones. In every other one ther is either bad stuff, or the faction is too bad to play. Like beastclaws have a box that can make the whole army with 2-3 boxs, but the faction is unplayable.

Edited by Karol
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