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syph0n

Proxying Weapons/Models

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Hi all. 

I guess that this may well boil down to 'depends on who you play', but to what extent are people OK with proxying weapons or models?

The reason I ask, is because I've gone back and forth with my own army lists. Up to 1750 ish points is fine, I can remain Order Serpentis, Anvilgard etc. However, I'm then struggling to make 2k without buying another dragon and hydra and so on. 

I just want to learn to play, go from 1k to 2k eventually, but use what I own - keep costs low. That means, if I bought a box of Corsairs, I'd have 30. That means I've got a list of 3x10, if I can proxy, Darkshards. All for the low price of £15 or whatever they are and I have standard battleline for a regular Order list. 

Corsairs already have crossbows, but the handbow variant = proxy #1. They have no shields, but I'd proxy the cloak as a shield instead. Is this pushing my luck? Alternative, and this would depend on bits cost, would be to buy proper crossbows and probably rob shields from my other models. I'd prefer to model them as Corsairs as much as poss, because I guess I then also have 30 Corsairs should the wind change direction and my list change again!

Would you play someone who had done so? I know my mate who I'm learning with would be absolutely fine, and I too would be - especially if there's a fluffy reason for it. 

In interests of chatting - what have you proxied with regularity, and why?

 

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My general rule is that if I have to ask more than a couple of times what they do, they really aren't an acceptable proxy

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1 minute ago, Thebiggesthat said:

My general rule is that if I have to ask more than a couple of times what they do, they really aren't an acceptable proxy

That seems fair. In this instance... Corsairs with handbows and cloaks = Darkshards with crossbows and shields? 

 

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Just now, syph0n said:

That seems fair. In this instance... Corsairs with handbows and cloaks = Darkshards with crossbows and shields? 

 

Yeah man, that doesn't seem to complicated to me. Obviously if you think about a more competitive environment you'll have to readjust. 

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I don't mind playing against proxys at all, as I use them to test my lists before buying models and it's understandable. After all, when we can get the points cost changes every year, I get the wysiwyg is hard and expensive. And last but not least, AoS doesn't have mixed weapons squads in 40k style, so it's not hard to remember.

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I'm tempted to build 60 moonclan bowmen and use them as gitmob, but not sure that would be allowed at events. 

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I think I would differ between proxing because I don't have the models yet, or to make a monotone army less monotone (that shouldn't be a problem) and proxing because of strength.

The last thing is something like "all my Namarti Thralls, are Icon Bearers because they have more attacks". In such a case, proxing is a really bad thing for the opponent.

 

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10 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

I'm tempted to build 60 moonclan bowmen and use them as gitmob, but not sure that would be allowed at events. 

Exactly what I'm doing at the moment, would like to use them at BOBO but will have to enquire if that's a thing

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1 minute ago, EMMachine said:

I think I would differ between proxing because I don't have the models yet, or to make a monotone army less monotone (that shouldn't be a problem) and proxing because of strength.

The last thing is something like "all my Namarti Thralls, are Icon Bearers because they have more attacks". In such a case, proxing is a really bad thing for the opponent.

 

I think where it's for an obviously broken reason, I'd be the same. The above example, I'd want the exact GW model for ALL the Icon bearers for example. 

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have you got any freeguild crossbows? you could stick those on your corsairs and have them be more obviously darkshards

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in regards to conversions, I general go for the rule, that the model should represent, what the model has, so for dark shards, converted from corstairs, would need crossbows and shields, not just having cloaks. and saying they are shields. 

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17 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I think I would differ between proxing because I don't have the models yet, or to make a monotone army less monotone (that shouldn't be a problem) and proxing because of strength.

The last thing is something like "all my Namarti Thralls, are Icon Bearers because they have more attacks". In such a case, proxing is a really bad thing for the opponent.

 

Yeah that's pushing your luck, definitely. That's not just to get playing, it's gaming the system. 

Just now, flemingmma said:

have you got any freeguild crossbows? you could stick those on your corsairs and have them be more obviously darkshards

Unfortunately not, just the Corsair handbows. I'm looking online for the darkshard bits, but they seem pricey.

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I think without converting at all it’d get confusing/irritating at times. Instinctively we assume things are what they look like so in heat of the moment a play may look, see Corsairs and assume corsairs only to have them remember they were proxies later. As a rule of thumb I’m pro conversion and anti proxy. The first results in cool unique models. The latter can result in confusion 

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I'm pretty averse to way out there proxies that aren't even close unless it's a one off thing to try a unit before buying. I'm usually pretty okay with proxying similar things as long as you're not proxying something similar to what's in your army. So poxwalkers as zombies or vice versa is fine since it's pretty clear what they should be, but running black knights as blood knights not as much as it would be confusing(but I'd make exceptions for the previously mentioned one off try before buying). I'm also pretty okay with declaring that a unit has a particular type of weapon(that is supposed to have one type of weapon unit-wide) even if there's a mix of models. So if you have a 10 skeletons with swords and 10 with spears and run it as a unit of 20 skeletons, I'm fine with declaring that they're all spears.

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55 minutes ago, Melcavuk said:

I think without converting at all it’d get confusing/irritating at times. Instinctively we assume things are what they look like so in heat of the moment a play may look, see Corsairs and assume corsairs only to have them remember they were proxies later. As a rule of thumb I’m pro conversion and anti proxy. The first results in cool unique models. The latter can result in confusion 

I remember a long time ago, people using Corsairs as replacements for crossbows, because the models were ancient. Also, the Corsairs look so much cooler. Where do we start do draw the line I guess I'm saying? What if I took Darkshards, swapped heads and added sea dragon cloaks? The models would look really cool, but may confuse people as much as the way round I'm looking at. I like converting, and would happily do so with the Corsairs if I can get proper crossbows.

13 minutes ago, bsharitt said:

I'm pretty averse to way out there proxies that aren't even close unless it's a one off thing to try a unit before buying. I'm usually pretty okay with proxying similar things as long as you're not proxying something similar to what's in your army. So poxwalkers as zombies or vice versa is fine since it's pretty clear what they should be, but running black knights as blood knights not as much as it would be confusing(but I'd make exceptions for the previously mentioned one off try before buying). I'm also pretty okay with declaring that a unit has a particular type of weapon(that is supposed to have one type of weapon unit-wide) even if there's a mix of models. So if you have a 10 skeletons with swords and 10 with spears and run it as a unit of 20 skeletons, I'm fine with declaring that they're all spears.

I wouldn't use Corsairs if I used Corsair models as proxies for Darkshards. That would be confusing for me even as the player! 

A bit more context - I've added Sea Dragon Cloaks to my Drakespawn Knights, to my Dragonlord etc. Felt like a thematic thing to use Corsairs as well as a financial one.

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The line as you put it is quite clear to me:

Dark shard conversion with cool cape as darkshard - a conversion, colourful and unique but representative of its weapon and role

Corsair as Darkshard - a proxy, one model being used as a different warscroll.

 

The first may require someone to look twice, but when they do they will see a difference. You can look at the second a dozen times and it looks no less like a corsair and no more like a darkshard the more you look.

 

It is a matter of creativity, to use my own models I have:
Vanguard hunter model with hammer and shield instead of axe and crossbow as liberators. When you look at the weapons the only unit that can take hammer and shield is liberators, its the right size and in the right armour. Yes the fur cape might make you look twice but then when you look at weapons you immediately go "hammer and shield, stormcast, thats a liberator" as opposed to if I used a normal vanguard hunter model where you'd go "thats a vanguard hunter"

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I am ok with a proxy for one model for a game or two prior to making a purchase. That's seems reasonable to me.

Other than that, I'm firmly opposed to proxy, counts_as, heavy "creative" conversions, etc.

I have a pretty simple standard I apply:

You put your army out on the table. Without you saying a word, can I identify with certainty which army it is and which units (including their non-hidden options) the various models represent?

If yes, game on.

If no, I'd prefer to find a different opponent for the afternoon.

Years ago I wrote up a longer explanation of why, if you have time and are curious.

http://www.muppin.com/joesleboda/manifesto/Section3_1.htm

It's out of date, and goes on several pages, but hey.

Edited by Sleboda
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9 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Years ago I wrote up a longer explanation of why, if you have time and are curious.

http://www.muppin.com/joesleboda/manifesto/Section3_1.htm

It's out of date, and goes on several pages, but hey.

It's worse than I thought - Steelers fans aren't in league with the Sith Empire, Steelers fans ARE the Sith Empire! :)

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Aw sweet Vader. If only I could rule the universe like the Sith of old.

"We shall have peace."

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My thoughts on proxies:

Absolutely no if playing in an event.

Probably no if playing in store, although this would likely be up to the manager.

Maybe yes if playing against friends.

At the end of the day, I have no issues amongst friends or regular battle buddies and the like if you're doing it to try out a new unit or two, or just don't have some things ready. It's not something I have frequently done, but I completely understand it. When I was building up my Freeguild, I proxied a Chaos Chariot in for a Celestial Hurricanum for a couple of games just to try it out (As I wasn't sure if I wanted to build a Hurricanum or Luminark).

But personally, it's not something I would want to see every game. It is definitely something that detracts from the game, in the same way that unpainted models and scenery do even if it's just one unit or all of one unit type.

 

As others have mentioned. If they were conversions then they would be more accepted. As ultimately then they'd just become slightly different looking Darkshard with a scaly cloak.

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Yeah I think the distinction between proxies and conversions is a big thing. 

Anything to distinguish them or make it easily identifiable as to what they represent would help in smoothing the waters I think.

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If you get some freeguild handgunners which i understand are a pretty good unit, the crossbows you get there would make some good darkshards with your privateers

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I think this one of those questions, that if you ask 20 people you'll get 20 different answers.

I'd say my own opinion (and one of the general consensus reading people's opinion's above) is that providing it's obvious what the models are meant to represent and you don't have to keep explaining what they are (or even worse forget yourself), overall you should be fine.

One thing I would throw in is that if you're learning or want to find out how a unit would work, there's absolutely nothing wrong playing with a friend and going "that unit of X represents Y - I've added a token to remind us".

However the set in concrete rule is - check with your opponent or in the case of a tournament the TO

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