Let's chat: Katophrane decks

[Skulltula]

7 minutes ago, Malakree said:

The issue isn't that you need a deck which has a positive win ratio against it and the rest of the field. The issue is that all the cards which you use to "hate" on Kataphrane's are not only terrible in every other match-up but are at best random. So you are building a deck which will occasionally beat Kataphrane's if the draws come out in your favour but will suck vs everyone else. 

You build a hate deck for combo. Against control you need a solid plan. I've had success against Kat without Shattershard and Frozen in Time (over multiple decks - you have my Chosen Axes one here, my Farstriders one is between me and the person I collaborated with for now) because I agree the dice roll is not helpful. I'm not averse to using them, but prefer to build without, unless the need calls for it.

 

7 minutes ago, Malakree said:

As to why nobody was running it at the Warhammerfest Grand Clash, it's because it's a boring deck. Having been there the opinion from everyone, including some of the players actually running it, was the same. Nobody likes it, nobody wants to play against it and more importantly nobody really wants to play AS it. We all knew it was the strongest deck going in but given the choice between taking it and taking anything else we chose to run something else. If it were allowed to become an entrenched deck the tournament scene for shade-spire would be dead.

 

Sweeping statement. I enjoy the deck. If I go to a competitive event where I need to travel, pay a decent entry fee and possibly even need to book accommodation I'm also committed enough to compete. That means the best deck.
There's plenty of LGS events where you can run a deck based more on enjoyment, but this is supposed to be a competitive game. Why should the competitive player have to compromise in the events that theoretically should mean more to them (i.e. the ones that should attract the best players, the biggest challenges) because of what you enjoy?

you're mixing opinion and facts in an unhelpful way...I can also hypothesise that if the game just becomes aggro matches the tournament scene will be dead. That doesn't help anyone.

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, Skulltula said:

Also movement ploys does not make it a hate deck. It makes it willing to interact against decks that move backwards. This would be relevant if objective decks hadn't fallen off the face of the earth due to Great Concussion. GW should maybe thank us that exposing their mistake with balance around Kat and turtle decks means nobody is talking about that mistake

Indeed.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Skulltula said:

Sweeping statement. I enjoy the deck. If I go to a competitive event where I need to travel, pay a decent entry fee and possibly even need to book accommodation I'm also committed enough to compete. That means the best deck.
There's plenty of LGS events where you can run a deck based more on enjoyment, but this is supposed to be a competitive game. Why should the competitive player have to compromise in the events that theoretically should mean more to them (i.e. the ones that should attract the best players, the biggest challenges) because of what you enjoy?

you're mixing opinion and facts in an unhelpful way...I can also hypothesise that if the game just becomes aggro matches the tournament scene will be dead. That doesn't help anyone.

What I am telling you is that of the 50ish players at the tournament. There was somewhere in the region of 4-6 players running Kataphrane's, around 20 people who were at their first tournament and every other person there was unhappy with the Steelhearts deck, they didn't want to play as it and definitely didn't want to play against it.

This was the smallest Shadespire event I've ever been to, I imagine partially because the GW employees were all working however, considering I know of at least 5 players who were thinking of going but didn't bother to show because of the Steelhearts Kataphrane it suggests that the feeling at the event is replicated across the wider community.

There are plenty of other ways to run relics which don't draw that level of Ire, the objective based decks also didn't draw that level of hatred. 

 

Any kataphrane's discussion will always come down to two parts. There is the unintended method of using them, which every indicator shows that the community at large despises, and the other 7 warbands building them which have nowhere near the level of refinement, consistency and lack of interactivity. Personally I just hope that the nerf which gets fired at Steelhearts relics doesn't render them unplayable by everyone as there is potential for some amazingly fun decks with relics.

[Skulltula]

26 minutes ago, Malakree said:

What I am telling you is that of the 50ish players at the tournament. There was somewhere in the region of 4-6 players running Kataphrane's, around 20 people who were at their first tournament and every other person there was unhappy with the Steelhearts deck, they didn't want to play as it and definitely didn't want to play against it.

This was the smallest Shadespire event I've ever been to, I imagine partially because the GW employees were all working however, considering I know of at least 5 players who were thinking of going but didn't bother to show because of the Steelhearts Kataphrane it suggests that the feeling at the event is replicated across the wider community.

There are plenty of other ways to run relics which don't draw that level of Ire, the objective based decks also didn't draw that level of hatred. 

 

Any kataphrane's discussion will always come down to two parts. There is the unintended method of using them, which every indicator shows that the community at large despises, and the other 7 warbands building them which have nowhere near the level of refinement, consistency and lack of interactivity. Personally I just hope that the nerf which gets fired at Steelhearts relics doesn't render them unplayable by everyone as there is potential for some amazingly fun decks with relics.

I appreciate that, but it isn't the responsibility of the 4 players who wanted to win and thought Kat was their best chance. There's nothing in the rules against it (yet, I imagine). It's not for the community itself to impose it's will within a competitive game. That way lies madness and slippery slopes abound.

On GW's solution, I hope that it is well measured and is aimed to deliver a dynamic and competitive metagame.

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Skulltula said:

I appreciate that, but it isn't the responsibility of the 4 players who wanted to win and thought Kat was their best chance. There's nothing in the rules against it (yet, I imagine). It's not for the community itself to impose it's will within a competitive game. That way lies madness and slippery slopes abound.

On GW's solution, I hope that it is well measured and is aimed to deliver a dynamic and competitive metagame.

Sorry I wasn't having a go at those four players, I was saying why the deck is bad for the larger health of the game/competitive scene and why that style of overly defensive/stand-off deck will never be allowed to thrive. There will be control decks, defensive decks, aggressive decks, objective decks, killy decks and all sorts of other things. The current Steelheart Kataphrane's isn't any of those, it's a passive deck. It's a deck whose ideal game involves both players doing nothing and has no incentive to do anything. 

A good comparison would be to look at two objective based skeleton decks, they will end up fighting over the objectives, trying to keep the other player off theirs whilst seizing the opponents. There is a huge amount of tactical and strategical depth involved in that for both players and it makes for an interesting game to watch.

Consider two hyper aggressive Ironjawz decks, again you end up with each player trying to control the flow of the bloodbath. It's still going to be an exciting game to watch.

Finally consider two Steelhearts Kataphrane's decks facing each other, both sit at the back of their board and attempt to do as little as possible in order to get dressed faster than their opponent. It's completely dry to watch and involves absolutely minimal tactical decision making.

That's the heart of the problem, perhaps you could say it's the Steelheart of the problem!

[Skulltula]

It’s still a control deck. Most control decks will assume a passive position until they’re forced into interaction. They do so because the long game is theirs and they have the inevitability.

Where Kat is particularly strong is because it renders a lot of typical cards useless. It’s an old trick. Creatureless control in MTG does the same. Nice removal spells you have for other matches, dead draws here.

2 Kat players can just sit back and not interact. It’s literally level 0. Level 1 is using some of your otherwise dead pushes to try and deny them objectives. Level 2 is firing off something you’d put in for the mirror (I like shattershard there as the best in 1 card to not hurt other matchups). Level 3 is how they adjust. My last match against a particularly good player I provoked a counterspell war and got shattershard through clear. He dug deep off trust to luck to chase hidden paths and nearly assassinated my relic holder off it.

[Malakree]

20 minutes ago, Skulltula said:

2 Kat players can just sit back and not interact. It’s literally level 0. Level 1 is using some of your otherwise dead pushes to try and deny them objectives. Level 2 is firing off something you’d put in for the mirror (I like shattershard there as the best in 1 card to not hurt other matchups). Level 3 is how they adjust. My last match against a particularly good player I provoked a counterspell war and got shattershard through clear. He dug deep off trust to luck to chase hidden paths and nearly assassinated my relic holder off it.

I hate to break this to you but Steelhearts Kataphrane's isn't a deep or complex deck. The things you are describing are fairly basic elements of shadespire,  All the skill involved in it is in the deck building aspect and after they put the list online it removed even that element. Again that wouldn't matter if the deck itself was bad, as the best deck in the game and only solid counter to itself it's a terrible state of affairs.

30 minutes ago, Skulltula said:

It’s still a control deck. Most control decks will assume a passive position until they’re forced into interaction. They do so because the long game is theirs and they have the inevitability.

Where Kat is particularly strong is because it renders a lot of typical cards useless. It’s an old trick. Creatureless control in MTG does the same. Nice removal spells you have for other matches, dead draws here.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The big complaint against it is the fact it doesn't play the game, maybe some people enjoy piloting it but for the vast majority it's not fun or interesting.

Anyway this Negative Nancy discussion about the AFK Kataphrane's is kinda irrelevant since it's going to be fixed in the very near future. With that in mind are you going to be playing it in any other decks (assuming it doesn't get mangled to badly), if so what have you got planned?

[Skulltula]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

I hate to break this to you but Steelhearts Kataphrane's isn't a deep or complex deck. The things you are describing are fairly basic elements of shadespire,  All the skill involved in it is in the deck building aspect and after they put the list online it removed even that element. Again that wouldn't matter if the deck itself was bad, as the best deck in the game and only solid counter to itself it's a terrible state of affairs.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The big complaint against it is the fact it doesn't play the game, maybe some people enjoy piloting it but for the vast majority it's not fun or interesting.

Anyway this Negative Nancy discussion about the AFK Kataphrane's is kinda irrelevant since it's going to be fixed in the very near future. With that in mind are you going to be playing it in any other decks (assuming it doesn't get mangled to badly), if so what have you got planned?

As part of the team that built it, I’ll at least take the backhanded compliment about building it being a skill thing. The 2nd place from the 1st GC is our team build (my flex cards). The 1st place from this weekend is my 32 and where the winner settled from us chatting about the deck.

It not being the very deepest deck doesn’t mean it’s the opposite though. It’s a deck that rewards doing the basics well and a knowledge of the intermediate.

I absolutely have plans depending on what they ban. Obviously it makes sense to wait for GW to act and an event. I also have plans for however long they don’t do anything.

[Malakree]

Building and refining any deck to competitive levels takes skill and understanding of the game. Net decking removes that aspect but for most MTG and shadespire decks you still have to understand what you're mulliganing for or the specific tactical decisions.

The way the deck is built and played largely removes the second half of the skill paradigm because it is so simplistic. I'm still annoyed that GW released the exact winning GC list for it because all the skill in the deck is in the build.

In that regard it's closer to a hearthstone deck than an MTG deck. 

Honestly it's just another one of those signs that GW has never really done anything like this before. Wizards is Super careful with this kind of thing and I expect they will be far more alert for it in the future.

You can tell what they wanted kataphrane's to be, you can tell some of the objectives were meant as Hail Marys. The specific fusion into one deck is obviously akin to things like affinity or the other ridiculous decks of old.

[Anthony225]

I for one would think it'd be incredible dull and boring to watch a mirror match of this Steelhearts Kataphrane's deck. Honestly why would anyone watch it? How could you even promote the game using this deck? As a potential new player I would ask "why is that guy not doing anything?" At the end of the game he wins and I'd say "what? how did he win? he didn't do anything? I don't get it" "I'll pass"

[Sleboda]

The Kataphrane concept really does feel like a design concept holdover from old GW:

 

"Here's a neat idea. These old artifacts are lost in Shadespire and the warriors can find them and collect a set. That will be neat.!"

"Yes! What will they do?"

"Well, they are mysterious and powerful and very evocative, not to mention they contain great power!"

"Ooo! That sounds keen. What if they are too powerful?"

"Don't worry, most people will know to control themselves and only use them in a fun, narrative sense."

"Ah, yes, of course."

(from the back of the room, from a new designer instead of the old guard)

"But, but, but ... this is our honest attempt at a hyper-competitive game.  People will go after them instantly."

"Shut it, you! Our players are nice chaps!"

"And lasses!"

"Yes, of course, and lasses."

Fast forward 6 months.

"Why is nobody playing in tournaments anymore?"

 

[Skulltula]

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

The Kataphrane concept really does feel like a design concept holdover from old GW:

 

"Here's a neat idea. These old artifacts are lost in Shadespire and the warriors can find them and collect a set. That will be neat.!"

"Yes! What will they do?"

"Well, they are mysterious and powerful and very evocative, not to mention they contain great power!"

"Ooo! That sounds keen. What if they are too powerful?"

"Don't worry, most people will know to control themselves and only use them in a fun, narrative sense."

"Ah, yes, of course."

(from the back of the room, from a new designer instead of the old guard)

"But, but, but ... this is our honest attempt at a hyper-competitive game.  People will go after them instantly."

"Shut it, you! Our players are nice chaps!"

"And lasses!"

"Yes, of course, and lasses."

Fast forward 6 months.

"Why is nobody playing in tournaments anymore?"

 

In fairness, for the types of deck they probably had using them, they're very fair. It takes activations to move onto objectives to score hold objective, supremacy etc. and you have to devote multiple deck slots to all the card draw. The end build for that type of deck is a classic glass cannon because deck space gets eaten purely on making the plan work. So you can end up with a busted flush.

What we did with Scaredy Kat went off the beaten path, that's what they likely need to be better prepared for.


On the subject of entertainment...it's GW's game, up to them what type of player they want to attract. MTG has done fine with control mirrors. Likely because it also showcases a variety of decks. It's a genuine competitive choice and as a result attracts competitive players.

[Sleboda]

@Skulltula

I find myself agreeing with a lot of your comments here, but as a suggestion, in the interest of broader understanding, maybe cut down on the "lingo" and explain more?

I have no idea what Scaredy Kat and control mirror mean.

 

FWiW, you're not alone. I would love to see more people actually use meaningful words instead of short cut lingo.  I'm old. ?

[Skulltula]

32 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

@Skulltula

I find myself agreeing with a lot of your comments here, but as a suggestion, in the interest of broader understanding, maybe cut down on the "lingo" and explain more?

I have no idea what Scaredy Kat and control mirror mean.

 

FWiW, you're not alone. I would love to see more people actually use meaningful words instead of short cut lingo.  I'm old. ?

Scaredy Kat is the name we gave to the Stormcast Relic deck. Because it doesn’t want to fight and tries to assemble the Katophrane relics.

control mirror - short hand for a mirror match (both players using the same decks) between control players. So if for example two players using aggressive magores fiends decks played against each other it would be an aggro mirror. The cool thing about mirror matches is usually they bounce off each other in a way where different things matter to usual, or there’s one key aspect to fight over. For example, a textbook example of a red aggressive deck in magic the gathering wants to win most games fast before the opponent can get set and going. But when two of these decks play each other, because they can’t go under each other’s game plan they wind up trading resources and one grinds the other out eventually.

[Goblin-King]

38 minutes ago, Skulltula said:

Scaredy Kat is the name we gave to the Stormcast Relic deck. Because it doesn’t want to fight and tries to assemble the Katophrane relics.

Also the abbreviation of StormCast Eternals KATOphrane is "SCE KAT". Pronounced, "SCE" kinda sounds like scaredy; hence scaredy cat/kat.

Like poetry  

[CJPT]

17 hours ago, Skulltula said:

Sweeping statement. I enjoy the deck. If I go to a competitive event where I need to travel, pay a decent entry fee and possibly even need to book accommodation I'm also committed enough to compete. That means the best deck.

Wanted to respond to this point in particular because it's an area where I've frequently seen quite a big difference between miniatures games and TCGs.

While it's absolutely fair to say 'I've spent money and time to get here, I want to win', I've encountered just as many - if not more - players who think 'I've spent time and money to get here, I want to have the best games possible'. Even people who would consider themselves competitive.

Asking competitive players to moderate their use of 'tier 0' meta decks is a slippery slope, but it's a slippery slope that the game is already on - because no two competitive players are the same. Everybody values something slightly different, whether that's deck building or fundamental mechanics, and catering to different types of competitor is vital for the health of the game whether or not specific mirror matches are interesting. If Katophrane decks reign until Shadespire 2 comes out, you'll lose everybody except the deck builders (and even then, they're not going to be actually doing much deck building.)

These high skill floor power lists are really bad for new competitive players, too. They'll either be put off by them, which is bad for the scene, or adopt them as the only way to win, which is worse.

[Skulltula]

17 minutes ago, CJPT said:

Wanted to respond to this point in particular because it's an area where I've frequently seen quite a big difference between miniatures games and TCGs.

While it's absolutely fair to say 'I've spent money and time to get here, I want to win', I've encountered just as many - if not more - players who think 'I've spent time and money to get here, I want to have the best games possible'. Even people who would consider themselves competitive.

Asking competitive players to moderate their use of 'tier 0' meta decks is a slippery slope, but it's a slippery slope that the game is already on - because no two competitive players are the same. Everybody values something slightly different, whether that's deck building or fundamental mechanics, and catering to different types of competitor is vital for the health of the game whether or not specific mirror matches are interesting. If Katophrane decks reign until Shadespire 2 comes out, you'll lose everybody except the deck builders (and even then, they're not going to be actually doing much deck building.)

These high skill floor power lists are really bad for new competitive players, too. They'll either be put off by them, which is bad for the scene, or adopt them as the only way to win, which is worse.

The best way of answering this might be broader event offerings. The 56 man clash I won was free entry with the Glass trophy and rest of the OP kit on offer. I had to run through a player on the way who had come just to chill and have fun, which obviously was a conflict since I was piloting Scaredy Kat. Both of us had justification to be at the event and approaching it how we did, but that doesn't prevent the feel bad situation on both sides and being honest it's something I'd rather not have to run into. I'd rather have a more fun deck at hand if I'm trying to community build (which is the attitude I take in terms of my LGS)

[CJPT]

47 minutes ago, Skulltula said:

The best way of answering this might be broader event offerings. The 56 man clash I won was free entry with the Glass trophy and rest of the OP kit on offer. I had to run through a player on the way who had come just to chill and have fun, which obviously was a conflict since I was piloting Scaredy Kat. Both of us had justification to be at the event and approaching it how we did, but that doesn't prevent the feel bad situation on both sides and being honest it's something I'd rather not have to run into. I'd rather have a more fun deck at hand if I'm trying to community build (which is the attitude I take in terms of my LGS)

Totally agree, but possibly easier said than done when LGSes are going to be looking at the attendance/tone of these events to determine the game's viability. Sounds like things have taken off reasonably well near you, but Shadespire still feels a little shaky in my area. Enthusiasm took a big hit early when passive Steelheart objective decks where a thing (even though they could be countered) - Katophrane Stormcast threaten a similar situation, but worse.

My background is in competitive X-Wing, and I found that a limited top-tier meta eventually filtered down to and soured local events, rather than local events diversifying to accommodate different player types. Over the years I saw a marked transition from new players showing up with lists they were excited about to new players showing up with power lists they'd found online. That makes total sense - if you're new to a scene you probably don't know what the tone of the event or community is, and you might be afraid of embarrassing yourself by showing up with something 'bad'.

I think a game needs to reach a certain size - like Magic - to sustain different competitive ecosystems like the ones you describe. The fact that X-Wing was/is pretty huge and didn't get to that point is a concern, to me, that it isn't something we can realistically expect from Shadespire.

[Skulltula]

1 hour ago, CJPT said:

Totally agree, but possibly easier said than done when LGSes are going to be looking at the attendance/tone of these events to determine the game's viability. Sounds like things have taken off reasonably well near you, but Shadespire still feels a little shaky in my area. Enthusiasm took a big hit early when passive Steelheart objective decks where a thing (even though they could be countered) - Katophrane Stormcast threaten a similar situation, but worse.

My background is in competitive X-Wing, and I found that a limited top-tier meta eventually filtered down to and soured local events, rather than local events diversifying to accommodate different player types. Over the years I saw a marked transition from new players showing up with lists they were excited about to new players showing up with power lists they'd found online. That makes total sense - if you're new to a scene you probably don't know what the tone of the event or community is, and you might be afraid of embarrassing yourself by showing up with something 'bad'.

I think a game needs to reach a certain size - like Magic - to sustain different competitive ecosystems like the ones you describe. The fact that X-Wing was/is pretty huge and didn't get to that point is a concern, to me, that it isn't something we can realistically expect from Shadespire.

I understand and largely agree with your points. I'd just then put forward that it's ultimately then up to GW to decide what type of game they want and either they push the competitive side, or they push the fun side. Better to choose and have a core loyal audience that then grows at a reasonable pace than try to please everyone and please no-one. Or they pull a real rabbit out the hat and manage to keep producing fun and competitive environments - which is a real challenge.

[CJPT]

Beta rule update!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/15/may-14th-warhammer-underworlds-beta-rules-announcedgw-homepage-post-2/

Relics now cost 2 glory to play, and GW will be running this beta rule at future events that they run (perhaps including the LondonGT Grand Clash this week?)

[Goblin-King]

10 minutes ago, CJPT said:

Beta rule update!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/15/may-14th-warhammer-underworlds-beta-rules-announcedgw-homepage-post-2/

Relics now cost 2 glory to play, and GW will be running this beta rule at future events that they run (perhaps including the LondonGT Grand Clash this week?)

Just saw this... Not a great solution if you ask me. 

1. The complete set not cost 12 glory to equip. By the point I have 12 glory, I'd say I've already won the match in most cases. Might as well have banned them.

2. This doesn't really fix the underlying problem, that defensive SCE can score easy glory, while denying an aggro team for 1-2 phases, thus gaining a head start. 

[Malakree]

It's kinda annoying because it hits all the decks not just the obnoxious one.

Also doesn't target the actual root of the problem which is uninteractive objective cards.

That said it's the route which requires no card intervention or bans, but will be rendered worthless if they ever bring out another win condition type effect.

Edit: what gk said but he was more elloquent. Also a slight errata, its 10 because of spoils of battle.

Personally I think spoils of battle needs to be unable to equip kataphrane's as it's one of the key parts.

[Chikout]

I think it is a good fix. I always saw these as being intended to be a neat bonus for anyone who collected all the warbands . If it means they rarely get used in tournaments, I think that is fine.

[CJPT]

I think it's an interesting fix. It turns the sixth relic into a 'win more' condition rather than a 'win regardless of the gamestate' one, a bit like Annihilation. Something that might turn a close match but that you can't rely on to win you every game. I'll need to play with it to see how it feels, but I don't think it makes relics irrelevant - and it hurts passive Stormcast decks more than other archetypes.

[Qaz]

11 minutes ago, Chikout said:

I think it is a good fix. I always saw these as being intended to be a neat bonus for anyone who collected all the warbands . If it means they rarely get used in tournaments, I think that is fine.

I also think that it's a neat fix. Personally, I would tweak it so that it costs a total of 9 glory (3 pieces costing 2 glory each) so that it'll still be playable but force relic decks to interact with the opponent. I'm pretty sure there's not an objective combination to let you score 7 glory without interacting with the opponent. 

Playstyle variety keeps the game interesting. There should be defensive decks, objective/keys decks, relic decks, and aggresive decks. So that aggresive > objective/keys > defensive/relic > aggresive sort of balance.