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Let's chat: Katophrane decks


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Is it me or were most players still focusing on Power decks meant to enhance their playstyle, rather than decks meant to disrupt their opponents' ? How well do you think a relics deck can fare against a deck intent on breaking it? (Frozen in Time and Shattershard, mostly)

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27 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

Is it me or were most players still focusing on Power decks meant to enhance their playstyle, rather than decks meant to disrupt their opponents' ? How well do you think a relics deck can fare against a deck intent on breaking it? (Frozen in Time and Shattershard, mostly)

I had shattershard played against me 3 times. 1 of those times it got through forceful denial and worked, so I won a close game by using the relics for defence rerolls and tried to just score more glory honestly.

a teammate of mine got frozen in time twice. Or rather, the target his misdirection chose did.

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43 minutes ago, Skulltula said:

I had shattershard played against me 3 times. 1 of those times it got through forceful denial and worked, so I won a close game by using the relics for defence rerolls and tried to just score more glory honestly.

a teammate of mine got frozen in time twice. Or rather, the target his misdirection chose did.

Fair enough. Looks like there's not enough anti-artifacts tech out there, alas. I wish there was a ploy that could force target model to declare a charge next turn, as that'd have been a decent counter against the relics deck...

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Brainstorming some counters: Shattershard and Frozen in Time have been mentioned as handy cards for specifically trying to counter the Katophrane builds. These are working against Misdirection and Forceful Denial.  Any other cards that are a good call? Hidden Paths or other movement shenanigans for getting to the back line? Momentary Madness to try to get them to kill each other (maybe unlikely if they’re looking for Alone in the Darkness).  I was pondering Daylight Robbery to slow the glory income, though without score immediately in that Kato deck, you have fewer chances to score it.

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11 hours ago, Red_Zeke said:

Brainstorming some counters: Shattershard and Frozen in Time have been mentioned as handy cards for specifically trying to counter the Katophrane builds. These are working against Misdirection and Forceful Denial.  Any other cards that are a good call? Hidden Paths or other movement shenanigans for getting to the back line? Momentary Madness to try to get them to kill each other (maybe unlikely if they’re looking for Alone in the Darkness).  I was pondering Daylight Robbery to slow the glory income, though without score immediately in that Kaio deck, you have fewer chances to score it.

Daylight Robbery is really narrow. Have to catch us with more glory than relics because we equip in end step (draws us more cards, it’s also why we don’t play escalation).

I played in a 56 person Clash last night. My round 1 opponent won the roll and so got to place the board horizontal. He also had Shattershard, Frozen in Time and Hidden Paths. It meant I had to win honestly, so I did: 12-8 since his shattershard succeeded.

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10 hours ago, Skulltula said:

I played in a 56 person Clash last night. My round 1 opponent won the roll and so got to place the board horizontal. He also had Shattershard, Frozen in Time and Hidden Paths. It meant I had to win honestly, so I did: 12-8 since his shattershard succeeded.

I think this emphasises the need for a warband that can beat SCE turtle first and foremost. Once you have that you can start worrying about relics

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14 hours ago, Skulltula said:

...we equip in end step (draws us more cards)

Wait, care to explain this one?

The only advantage I can see to waiting until the end phase to play upgrades instead of doing so right away is it prevents the opponent from reacting to your upgrade with a ploy until at least the next action phase, thus forcing him/her to keep cards in hand (if they already have Shattershard, for example) instead of playing it right away and then drawing a replacement card in the end phase...

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19 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

Wait, care to explain this one?

The only advantage I can see to waiting until the end phase to play upgrades instead of doing so right away is it prevents the opponent from reacting to your upgrade with a ploy until at least the next action phase, thus forcing him/her to keep cards in hand (if they already have Shattershard, for example) instead of playing it right away and then drawing a replacement card in the end phase...

Downside to reply from mobile. With aggro, it can be correct to earn the glory, have the incredible strength for example, but then hold it in hand until the right moment at cost of another card next turn. With Kat that’s not the choice at all, you want the card.

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1 hour ago, Skulltula said:

Downside to reply from mobile. With aggro, it can be correct to earn the glory, have the incredible strength for example, but then hold it in hand until the right moment at cost of another card next turn. With Kat that’s not the choice at all, you want the card.

Ah, fair enough, although I doubt I myself tend to play my upgrades asap as I want to cycle my powerdeck, whatever playstyle I go with...

That would explain my confusion :)

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The Kat deck vs almost every other build is a card game vs Shade spire. It is the antithesis of an interactive game. Both players are playing completely different games and only one of those players is WAAC. 

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58 minutes ago, Lister said:

The Kat deck vs almost every other build is a card game vs Shade spire. It is the antithesis of an interactive game. Both players are playing completely different games and only one of those players is WAAC. 

The WAAC thing is interesting to me...I suspect it comes out of miniatures having more grey areas where people are expected to talk it out. My expectation coming from TCG is I like well defined rules, clued up judges and don't mind the obligatory reminder that 'if you're in doubt call a judge...an opponent does not have your best interests at heart'.

I don't see WAAC as being a dirty word, what's wrong with wanting to win and competing? I say that as someone who wasted a fair amount of time playing a different deck to the no brainer because 'reasons'. Where reasons was usually my ego.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm genuinely sympathetic towards some players getting caught up in Scaredy Kat when it's not really something they should have to run into. If the organised play offerings were a bit more developed (will likely come with maturity) it's the type of deck in MTG speak I'd play at a PTQ or GP, but not FNM.

Beyond that though...the problem isn't the competitive side...this is billed as being a competitive game. The problem for me is the deck is too powerful. It's tier 0 and I'm at the point of being confident the metagame as a whole can't actually handle it and we're just about reaching end stage in terms of maybe a couple of decks can sneak a win from it - which means if the deck doesn't get banned we'll see it picked up more and more by competitive players and tournament attendance will drop. The fact it is also a negative play experience since it does have prison deck elements will only accelerate the drop in attendance.

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Well said Skulltula. My response was short and not overly constructive but I had just been at an event where 1st and 2nd were identical SCE KAT decks. During the awards ceremony I saw something I haven't seen in 15yrs of tourney play, 1st and 2nd were booed. This is not ok  in my books yet the use of that particular deck drew that response.  I guess that everyone on the day turned up to play a game shadespire (the card based model game) and 6 players got their ****** pushed in by an opponent that just drew cards (and everyone else heard about it). I know this is an option that people can take, if you want to win while having the minimal interaction with your opponent AND leave them feeling cheated by drawing that match up, that round, by all means take the Kat deck. But I don't think that at the end of the day you can ever wash off the WAAC  label people may place on you. And if you are cool with that then god help our scene here in Queensland.

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28 minutes ago, Lister said:

1st and 2nd were booed. This is not ok  in my books yet the use of that particular deck drew that response.  I guess that everyone on the day turned up to play a game shadespire (the card based model game) and 6 players got their ****** pushed in by an opponent that just drew cards (and everyone else heard about it).

That's unbelievable! Unenthusiastic slow-clapping is one thing! But straight up booing?

I think it's important to remember that KAT decks is just the latest new thing. Maybe the meta just need to adjust itself. There were other decks that dominated the scene before this, and the meta adjusted. OR this is the end of the line and non-KAT decks are just screwed?!

I agree with the sentiment that KAT decks kinda goes against what Shadespire should be. I applaud GW for making different styles of play available, but unfortunately this particular style tend to lead away from the primary objective of the game... having a good time.
People booing is perhaps not so much a statement against the specific players, but rather a red flag for GW to really consider what they put in the game in the future.

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The booing should be a concern, agreed.

As I said, it's the somewhat awkward collision between styles and types of play...for a lot of people, this may be their first competitive TCG and as I said, WAAC isn't really a dirty term within competitive circles...if you called someone at an MTG PTQ WAAC they'd probably say 'well yeah...I came here to try and get onto the Pro Tour...FNM and kitchen table are for goofing about'. I guess Shadespire being pretty young it doesn't have that differentiation yet, so rather than the sub 16, sub 8 person event being a goof off, FNM style it's going to attract competitive players with no other real outlet.

Separately to that though and specifically on Scaredy Kat - there is likely a problem that the deck is obnoxiously strong. In competitive terms, we flat out couldn't defend a decision to play anything else if the aim was to win (again, goes back to WAAC as a dirty term or not...but competitive events where you're travelling and paying a fee etc I don't think you're wrong in having a focus). In fairness, any deck in that situation will lead to unhealthy metagames...it's just certain ones really do rub people up badly if they're doing it. Take a read around 'combo winter' in MTG for history lessons.

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So the big issues with Steelhearts Kataphrane's are the uninteractive nature of it, the ease of use and the fact it actively attempts to avoid playing the game. All of that would be irrelevant if the deck didn't work or was weak but it's probably the strongest and most consistent deck out there at the moment. It's like playing a game of tag with someone who decides to get in their car and lock the doors, it defeats the purpose of the game.

This isn't so much a problem with Kataphrane's in general and much more an issue of steelhearts reaching critical mass with the hyper passive objective cards. Cards like Bloodless, Sigmar's Bulwark, Consecrated Area, Honest Opponent, Perfect Planning all give you glory for not interactive with the game board. When you then factor in that you can draw power cards with activation's and any "Win Condition" in your powers deck will produce this kind of deck. Fortunately we know that there is some form of fix coming for that deck in the very near future.

On relics in general I'm really enjoying playing a hyper-aggressive Relics deck, the reroll attack/defence is super strong if you're rolling 2 defence dice (or 3 attack) since it works as a strictly better awakened weapon. It forces the opponent to try and fight you resulting in some real bloodbaths with a ton of tactical decisions/plays. I've only had one person so far be upset about facing my deck and he'd just come off a double helping of the Steelheart's in his previous 2 rounds (of 3....). I probably should have beaten the two steelhearts decks I faced this weekend but a single bad decision against it means you lose hard and just having to face it put me in a bad mindset.

The aggressive Kataphrane's is already a bit of a monster to face and with a little bit more tuning I should be able to make it a scary deck for anyone to face. Honestly it's sad that Steelhearts is giving the relics such a bad name because it can produce some super interesting games. 

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15 minutes ago, Skulltula said:

We know there’s a fix coming, or we assume there’s a fix coming?

It was said at the tournament this weekend by one of the gw staff that the shadespire team are working on a fix for it.

They can't let it stand, they had a solid tournament scene with good growth and that deck is killing it. Nobody enjoys playing against it, not even the GW employees, it goes directly against the spirit of the game and watching it play is so dry it's unreal.

I know that there were at least 5 people scheduled for shadespire at warhammefest who didn't bother to come because steelhearts relics is a thing. 

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2 hours ago, Malakree said:

I know that there were at least 5 people scheduled for shadespire at warhammefest who didn't bother to come because steelhearts relics is a thing. 

I'm almost tempted to say those people are worse than those who play relics.
Build a deck specifically to counter relics then. They are not unbeatable you know.
They are extremely predictable. You know which kind of objectives they'll try to score.
Stop insisting to play their favorite warband and play one that can beat them. 

I know I might sound harsh, but I think people need to fix their attitude a bit and accept the challenge.

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Shardgale, hidden paths and/or Frozen in Time. Even Forceful denial is good. Just 'forceful denial' their 'trust to luck' and might have lost because they have not drawn all the kataphrones. All is generic enough to be used and good enough to stop kataphrones. 

First turn, they want to draw 4 times. Because they want to deck out before round 3. Assume they have a scoring hand so you either need to stop 'alone in the darkness', or 'bloodless'. Make sure you do-over and draw for something that can hurt them. If they fail to get 5 glories by the end of round 2, it is your game. Kill one to stop 'Eternals'. 

Or just play farstriders. 

But a good fix is increase minimum size deck to 30. 

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Part of the issue is people have settled into their pattern - they want to play the decks they have chosen already and be done with it. Insufficient people want to play with such as Shattershard due to the dice roll (I have some sympathy here). People want to run as much extra damage, combat tricks etc. and that's at the cost of other interactions.

I've beaten Kat in testing with dwarves. It's not a warband people would credit as likely, but it's doable. Having a faction specific distraction helps (fun fact...most Kat lists have now cut earthquake...so how many ways can they get back onto an edge hex AND hidden paths in the same turn? Great Concussion only in most lists), having multiple movement ploys helps (because you need to get up that board when you don't have hidden paths and I don't think hard mull is the way), having an independent inspire (reliant on your actions, not your opponent) helps (worth noting since it's the problem Skellies run into and reavers to my mind...you need that stat boost but can't rely on it). Having the +2 speed upgrade helps etc. Beyond that it's building in a solid and dependable glory flow and setting out your plan to make the game run to - we're going to disrupt them. We're going to get Fjul inspired and up the board (excellent sprinters), we're going to have Tefk inspired and on the backline and he'll need +1 damage.

I've got a Farstriders list that has an even better rate of success. A friend has a different Farstriders list that's also capable. I've seen people report success with Reavers. with Fiends. I know the card pool is there with Skaven. The games I've come closest to losing outside our testing have been aggro/tempo Stormcast with Shattershard (basically they're one of the warbands who should be on the Frozen/Shatter plan because they actually can threaten to outscore through objectives). There are builds out there people could be exploring, but there's an awfully small amount of people doing so and a real lack of leadership pushing people to build.

Yes there are bigger issues with the game/structure. Kat scores too much too consistently and that's a problem so long as GW insist on GCs running too few rounds to identify a clear cut to knockout (top 8 would be nice). That's going to be a problem down the line and banning relics will only paper over that crack. But outside of that, your LGS? Orruks and Sepulchral Guard aside, you could run any of the other warbands into a relic deck and wider field and win the glass trophy.

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Ferocious Charge

Scion of Grimnir

Precise Use of Force

Alone in the Darkness

Ploymaster

Our Only Way Out

Supremacy

Hold Objective 1

Hold Objective 2

Hold Objective 3

Hold Objective 4

Hold Objective 5

 

Treasure Lust

Sidestep

Tantalising Prize

The Earth Shakes

Ready For Action

Inspiration Strikes

Great Concussion

Distraction

Hidden Paths

Spectral Wings

 

Activated Runes

Grimnir's Speed

Grimnir's Fortitude

Awakened Weapon

Helpful Whispers

Light Armor

Great Strength

Great Speed

Incredible Strength

Soultrap

Dwarf build with respect to the above. To illustrate that it's a real deck and not just a hate deck.

While I'm venting as well, seeing people rat hole Ready for Action as if it can only grant attacks is frustrating. Burning it to get that second move in a turn is more than reasonable (and probably my most used mode against Kat)

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10 hours ago, Goblin-King said:

I'm almost tempted to say those people are worse than those who play relics.
Build a deck specifically to counter relics then. They are not unbeatable you know.
They are extremely predictable. You know which kind of objectives they'll try to score.
Stop insisting to play their favorite warband and play one that can beat them. 

I know I might sound harsh, but I think people need to fix their attitude a bit and accept the challenge.

Welp I am one of these people and I really do not feel like I am worse than anybody. 

I also do not feel particularly lazy or unable to adapt. I tried many angles and many warbands, many decks. The truth is there is no other deck that has positive winrate against it and rest of the field, if there was everybody would be on it, all we see though is tournament after tournament being won by kato.

All of the countercards are suboptimal in another matchup and you are not guaranteed to draw them in the right one(as opposed to misdirection on opponents side).

Kato is consistent, kato gets huge point leads due to nature of tournaments, and is the best counter to itself. And the worst of all it is uninteractive. 

Why would I spend half of my saturday and 2 out of 3 matches on looking sadly at the other side of the longboard and waiting for the opponent to finish their exodia with no way to stop them? To get a chance to attack them once in third turn and get rebounded? While I can get 3 quality, tactical games with my friend?

I am the customer and I do not have anything to fix, it is the gw that has to pull the game out of the hole the have dug for it(which will hopefully happen soon). And I do not say that lightly only after countless attempts at deck brewing.

And yeah there are farstriders but matchup is still around or less then 50/50

@skulltulla I ran something similar the problem with it is that it is still a hate deck. All af your ploys serve the purpose of getting slightly faster to the other side of the board.

You don't have Indomitable, you don't have My Turn, you don't have Rebound, Urgold boon, Oathsworn and other fighting ploys. While maybe you wont get slaughtered you will just get buried under the amount of dice and damage generated by orrruks, fiends or aggrresive stormcast. Maybe you will have slightly better matchup against farstriders or maybe not.

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1 hour ago, acadmo said:

I also do not feel particularly lazy or unable to adapt. I tried many angles and many warbands, many decks. The truth is there is no other deck that has positive winrate against it and rest of the field, if there was everybody would be on it, all we see though is tournament after tournament being won by kato.

You're looking for a unicorn. Asking for a deck that beats Kat and the rest of the field is asking for an even stronger deck. Decks shouldn't win every single matchup is the point usually made. It's reasonable to find a deck that beats Kat and some of the field, that's perfectly balanced.

 

1 hour ago, acadmo said:

You don't have Indomitable, you don't have My Turn, you don't have Rebound, Urgold boon, Oathsworn and other fighting ploys. While maybe you wont get slaughtered you will just get buried under the amount of dice and damage generated by orrruks, fiends or aggrresive stormcast. Maybe you will have slightly better matchup against farstriders or maybe not.

Yes, I have a worse time against fighting decks packed with fighting ploys. And they're dead to Kat. Can't win them all, pick which ones you'd like to have the better chance of that weekend.

Also movement ploys does not make it a hate deck. It makes it willing to interact against decks that move backwards. This would be relevant if objective decks hadn't fallen off the face of the earth due to Great Concussion. GW should maybe thank us that exposing their mistake with balance around Kat and turtle decks means nobody is talking about that mistake...

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1 hour ago, acadmo said:

The truth is there is no other deck that has positive winrate against it and rest of the field, if there was everybody would be on it, all we see though is tournament after tournament being won by kato.

We've seen 2 GC's won by Kat. That's all the data we have. The second one, only 4 people correctly identified what I'm assuming we agree is the best deck. You can't pivot to a point how if there was a better deck everyone would play it as a given without addressing the fact that 46/50 people failed to choose the best deck this very weekend.

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The issue isn't that you need a deck which has a positive win ratio against it and the rest of the field. The issue is that all the cards which you use to "hate" on Kataphrane's are not only terrible in every other match-up but are at best random. So you are building a deck which will occasionally beat Kataphrane's if the draws come out in your favour but will suck vs everyone else. 

A good example is what would iconically be the "counter" to Kataphrane's decks. Shattershard and Frozen in Time. The first problem is that you are drawing a limited amount of power cards, since you have to spend activation's pushing across the board, while your opponent is drawing his entire deck. Second problem is that both of your "counters" are random so if you draw them every game you will still lose 1/4 of the games due to them failing. Finally, linking both the first two points, your opponent has counters to your counters which are LESS random than your own cards and is MORE likely to have them in his hand. Misdirection renders Frozen in Time pointless while forceful denial means that half the time your Shattershard won't even go off. So in a full power deck situation (which often they will get and you won't) your "Counter" works 25% of the time. Assuming you then fill your powers deck with cards to help you try and stop the Kataphrane's you are crippling yourself in every other matchup for a potentially none positive win rate vs the deck itself.

The end result is that any "counter" deck for Kataphrane's ends up being a worse counter than just running the deck yourself since it achieve's a 50/50 against both itself, "counter" decks and then has a ridiculous win-rate against the rest of the field.

51 minutes ago, Skulltula said:

The second one, only 4 people correctly identified what I'm assuming we agree is the best deck.

As to why nobody was running it at the Warhammerfest Grand Clash, it's because it's a boring deck. Having been there the opinion from everyone, including some of the players actually running it, was the same. Nobody likes it, nobody wants to play against it and more importantly nobody really wants to play AS it. We all knew it was the strongest deck going in but given the choice between taking it and taking anything else we chose to run something else. If it were allowed to become an entrenched deck the tournament scene for shade-spire would be dead.

 

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