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Reaction "during attack" but with different conditions


themiro

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Guys,

Heated discussions in my game group regarding the subject, with both convincing points on both arguments but no definitive answer.

Can 2 reactions be played, in sequence (not at the same time), "during an attack action"?

 

Example:

Gurzag charges Garrek. Gurzag rolls more successes than Garrek and would deal 3 wounds. Garrek plays Rebound.

Should rebound fail, the action resumes, and Gurzag drives back Garrek. Can Gurzag now play Trap? (and finish Garrek)

Yes, no?

Arguments pro yes:

- The OPPORTUNITY is different.

- The trigger is different. Rebound is played on a successful attack, Trap is played on an attack that drives back the enemy (since Rebound could even deny drive back, I can't even commit to that before resolving rebound).

Arguments pro no:

- Both reactions are "during an attack" and Garrek, by playing Rebound, has seized the chance for Gurzag to do the same.

 

What do you think?

 

 

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My take:

Rebound is a reaction to the instant it's determined that the attacker rolls more successes than the defender. 
The drive back is only allowed AFTER the reaction AND after Rebound has failed.
If Rebound fails the defender takes damage AND the attacker can play Trap.
If Rebound succeeds, neither players can play Trap since nobody is driven back.

In other words, the entirety of the attack action isn't interrupted if Rebound fails, but rather just momentarily paused. So the opportunity to play Trap is still valid after Rebound has been resolved.

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I'd say that the drive back happens only after the attack action has finished as it's a result of whether it succeeds or not, therefore provides a new trigger for reactions.

You roll dice and check successes and can play rebound based on that, then if rebound fails you can then finish the attack action and declare a drive back which allows trap to be played. I'd resolve it exactly the same as Goblin-King would.

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I'd have to say you can't, because both Reactions trigger during the attack, the only difference being that in one case you need it to success, whereas in the other you need to Drive the ennemy back. The trigger (during an attack) remains the same, it's just the conditions (whether the reactions can be applied on this attack or not) that change.

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51 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

I'd have to say you can't, because both Reactions trigger during the attack

But that's like saying both reactions happen during the Action Phase.
The attack action has several small instances where several different reactions has a window to trigger.

- Declaring the attack
- Rolling attack dice
- Rolling defense dice
- Confirming hit, miss, tie or 0 successes
- Applying damage
- Drive back

Each of these can potentially be a separate trigger. 

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Unfortunately, we don't have a specific list of possible "trigger windows", but we know from the FAQ that "end of action" and "end of activation" are one and the same unless the fighter has more actions on the way (end of a move action, if the fighter declared a charge, or end of an attack action, if the fighter attacks multiple opponents).

In both cards mentionned above, the trigger we have is "during an attack." That's it. There's no two "during" for a single attack, there's before, during and after.

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Thank you all for your contributions to the discussion.
 

For those in favor of not allowing playing trap let me display a different case.

Gurzag charges Garrek at full health and upgraded with Soultrap. Garreks player has no reactions in hand. Gurzag attack succeeds and he plays trap, thus killing Garrek. Garrek now can't play Soultrap, given its a 'during' reaction and Gurzag already played trap seizing Garrek reaction (which he couldn't play before since the attack wasn't lethal).

This example above makes me lean toward the multiple trigger camp. If someone was to argue that their trap prevented me from using my soultrap I'd be having a hard time to digest that.

 

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6 hours ago, themiro said:

Thank you all for your contributions to the discussion.
 

For those in favor of not allowing playing trap let me display a different case.

Gurzag charges Garrek at full health and upgraded with Soultrap. Garreks player has no reactions in hand. Gurzag attack succeeds and he plays trap, thus killing Garrek. Garrek now can't play Soultrap, given its a 'during' reaction and Gurzag already played trap seizing Garrek reaction (which he couldn't play before since the attack wasn't lethal).

This example above makes me lean toward the multiple trigger camp. If someone was to argue that their trap prevented me from using my soultrap I'd be having a hard time to digest that.

 

That would be normally the case (cannot soultrap) but ... You can react on the ploy instead of the Attack action. "During an attack action or a ploy [..]"

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4 minutes ago, Qaz said:

That would be normally the case (cannot soultrap) but ... You can react on the ploy instead of the Attack action. "During an attack action or a ploy [..]"

So changing the situation a bit, Gurzag plays 'twist the knife' during an attack action to give it +1 damage which does enoughto take Garrek out of action, can Garrek then use 'Last Chance'?

This seems to go against the 'player with next activation gets to react first' as the trigger for the offensive player came first. Also I'm sure I read somewhere (Duel of Wits FAQ?) that it was a different trigger and therefore okay, even though it would be played at the same time as another ploy. 

So despite the windows both being 'during', the triggers are different 

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I'm now entering pure speculation, but I'm fairly certain the intention of the "only 1 reaction" rule is in place to prevent overwhelming casades.
Ah! I caused damage. Now I can throw these 5 cards at once and nuke everything.

These examples feels more like a natural unfolding of the situation.

 

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1 hour ago, Smed1986 said:

So changing the situation a bit, Gurzag plays 'twist the knife' during an attack action to give it +1 damage which does enoughto take Garrek out of action, can Garrek then use 'Last Chance'?

This seems to go against the 'player with next activation gets to react first' as the trigger for the offensive player came first. Also I'm sure I read somewhere (Duel of Wits FAQ?) that it was a different trigger and therefore okay, even though it would be played at the same time as another ploy. 

So despite the windows both being 'during', the triggers are different 

By the reasoning above I'd say no then since

 

1) The reaction to the attack was seized by Twist the Knife, AND

2) Last Chance cannot be used to react to a ploy (unlike Soultrap)

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2 minutes ago, Goblin-King said:

I'm now entering pure speculation, but I'm fairly certain the intention of the "only 1 reaction" rule is in place to prevent overwhelming casades.
Ah! I caused damage. Now I can throw these 5 cards at once and nuke everything.

These examples feels more like a natural unfolding of the situation.

 

The funny thing is that you can still cascade damage in an overwhelming way.

I play Reavers and it isn't uncommon to combo ploy to cause a ton of damage through normal activation attacks, Trap, Time Trap, Fuelled by Slaugther, Upgrade+Ready for Action, Rebounds etc...

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8 hours ago, themiro said:

By the reasoning above I'd say no then since

 

1) The reaction to the attack was seized by Twist the Knife, AND

2) Last Chance cannot be used to react to a ploy (unlike Soultrap)

I can see your point number 1, despite me thinking diffrently, however not number 2. Twist the Knife adds to the damage of the attack, so it is still the attack causing the Out of Action and why I believe it's worded the way it is, unlike Trap where it is the ploy doing the damage

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FWIW, it may help to remember that reactions don't happen to the "when" of a thing, but the "what"of it.

I know the word "when" is used in them, but focus on the thing the card is reacting to. Of course there is a when, but that's not the point of the sentence, the activity is.

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31 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

FWIW, it may help to remember that reactions don't happen to the "when" of a thing, but the "what"of it.

I know the word "when" is used in them, but focus on the thing the card is reacting to. Of course there is a when, but that's not the point of the sentence, the activity is.

Really? I've read and re-read page 24 and the only conclusion I ever manage to come to is that reactions are "time-locked". That is, a reaction opportunity is tied to a specific WHEN, not WHAT (page 24, 3rd paragraph) :

Quote

You may find that in some cases more than one reaction could be used at the same time, as defined on each card (e.g. ‘during an Attack action’, ‘after an Attack action’, ‘when your opponent plays a ploy’). However, only one reaction can be played at each such opportunity.

+ Edit :

 

I'd like to point out that the only examples of multiple reactions being playable we have in the FAQ are situations where one occurs during and a second one occurs after an attack:

Quote

[Page 4] Rebirth in Blood (#18)

Q: How does it work if my fighter has Soultrap and I have Rebirth in Blood in my hand? Can I use both cards? A: Soultrap’s reaction triggers during the Attack action, and Rebirth in Blood triggers after the Attack action. If you react during the Attack action with Soultrap, then fail the roll, you can then react after the Attack action with Rebirth in Blood (as long as the conditions are met).

Quote

[Page 6] Last Chance (#336)

Q: Could Last Chance and The Necromancer Commands be triggered by the same Attack action? A: Yes. Last Chance is a reaction taken during an Attack action that lets you ignore the damage caused by the Attack action. Only Attack actions that cause damage are successful, so the Attack action fails. At that point, if the attacking fighter was one of the Sepulchral Guard, their player could play The Necromancer Commands, which is a reaction taken after an Attack action that fails.

 

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I think it's an unfortunate tie to "same time." 

It's not the time that matters. Well, in a way. A reaction doesn't happen because of time, it happens because of action (lower case). So, yes, certainly time matters because all things happen in a time, but for the purposes of determining which reactions can be applied, it's not about time, it's about the action to which they are reacting.

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22 hours ago, Smed1986 said:

I can see your point number 1, despite me thinking diffrently, however not number 2. Twist the Knife adds to the damage of the attack, so it is still the attack causing the Out of Action and why I believe it's worded the way it is, unlike Trap where it is the ploy doing the damage

So still not possible to play last chance because of point one.  In terms of objective cards, could twist the knife be used to score masterstroke, and precise use or no remorse or crushing force (assuming the total damage matches up the needed number)?

 

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17 hours ago, Spinsane said:

Really? I've read and re-read page 24 and the only conclusion I ever manage to come to is that reactions are "time-locked". That is, a reaction opportunity is tied to a specific WHEN, not WHAT (page 24, 3rd paragraph) :

+ Edit :

 

I'd like to point out that the only examples of multiple reactions being playable we have in the FAQ are situations where one occurs during and a second one occurs after an attack:

 

Both quoted cases deal with a during attack vs after attack reaction, so they are never in conflict (I don't this needed faq in the first place)

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After discussion with my playing group and local FLG owner, we concluded on "WHEN" (during, after, before <action>) for triggers. I guess another case of strange interactions is: Teamwork [#367] stopping Soultrap [#420] from activating. Makes card like soul trap less valuable. 

4 hours ago, themiro said:

So still not possible to play last chance because of point one.  In terms of objective cards, could twist the knife be used to score masterstroke, and precise use or no remorse or crushing force (assuming the total damage matches up the needed number)?

 

Yes, because it adds Damage to the Attack action. 

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11 hours ago, Qaz said:

After discussion with my playing group and local FLG owner, we concluded on "WHEN" (during, after, before <action>) for triggers. I guess another case of strange interactions is: Teamwork [#367] stopping Soultrap [#420] from activating. Makes card like soul trap less valuable. 

Yes, because it adds Damage to the Attack action. 

That practically makes it always a superior choice vs trap. Am I missing something?

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12 hours ago, themiro said:

That practically makes it always a superior choice vs trap. Am I missing something?

You can activate trap even though you've failed the Attack action (but can drive back). But yes, generally a superior choice.  

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On 4/14/2018 at 7:06 AM, Spinsane said:

Really? I've read and re-read page 24 and the only conclusion I ever manage to come to is that reactions are "time-locked". That is, a reaction opportunity is tied to a specific WHEN, not WHAT (page 24, 3rd paragraph) :

+ Edit :

 

I'd like to point out that the only examples of multiple reactions being playable we have in the FAQ are situations where one occurs during and a second one occurs after an attack:

 

Great post.  I think this is the closest we have on an official answer.  It's kinda surprising that we're now up to 7 pages of FAQs, and this core game mechanic hasn't been explicitly addressed.  Reading this I now (personally) think the intention is clear though.

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