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Chris Tomlin

The Black Sunz - Ironjawz - Update 25/06 - Games 122-127 - Krunk's Tournament Return (DD Invitational Review)

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Wow...what a sorry state of affairs this thread has become. Just two games under the General's Handbook 2017 is frankly unacceptable at this point!!

Unfortunately podcasting has completely taken over my hobby time of late and I can barely remember my last game, let alone when I last painted a model! Thankfully my podcasting tends to revolve around speaking to others about their hobby as if I was meant to be talking about mine they would be pretty boring episodes :S 

This is leaving me in a pretty rubbish position to be honest. Right now should be the most excited I've been about playing the game for a long time and whilst I'm doing a lot of list writing, I'm one of those people who needs to actually play to get properly enthused you know?

Anyway, I have the Facehammer GT coming up in two weeks time, so that'll give me 5 games. I want to aim to play another 3-5 before then to get the ball rolling properly. In terms of painting, I hope to get back on that horse as well and would love to add something new to my army for the event.

So in order to achieve this, the podcast that is released on 18/09/17 will be the last episode for a few weeks, with the next one after that to come out on either 09/10/17 or 16/10/17, depending. That next episode will be me and @Sangfroid discussing Ironjawz under the GH2017, so should be a pretty exciting one to return with tbh.

This Saturday I have a Path to Glory session planned with 3 friends. It's been scheduled for a couple of months now and should be a good time as I've not played any of that yet. After that it'll be back to Matched Play and I am hopeful of getting a proper game in vs @Paul Buckler on Sunday.

So basically, what I'm saying is that I hope to be able to return this thread to former glory and start posting reports and thoughts....there should be loads to talk about right now eh?

Watch this space.
Chris x

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Hi guys,

This past weekend I was finally able to play through a Path to Glory campaign with a few of my friends. Whilst not full 2,000 point Matched Play games, I will still list them here as it was a great chance to me to get some more (albeit smaller) games under my belt with the new Ironjawz traits and artefacts.
My opponents for the day were;

Aaron Bailey @Forestreveries - Disciples of Tzeentch (Champion - Lord of Change)
Matt Clarke @Gmac2610 - Sylvaneth (Champion - Spirit of Durthu)
Amy Clarke - Clan Pestilens (Champion - Verminlord Corruptor)

As you can see they all went for large monsters as their Champion. I had actually planned on going with Megaboss Krunk for this, but was very easily peer pressured into taking Pig Benis on his Maw-krusha instead!

We set this out as a standard Patch to Glory campaign, with the win condition as suggested in the book, i.e. get to 10 Glory or 5 additional units and then win a final game. I have to say I really like the concept of doing something like this as a one day affair, similar to how me and @Paul Buckler played through the Skirmish campaign in a single sitting. It's a lot of fun to get a good group together and play it out this way. It also really highlights the fantastic core rules of AoS and how well it scales to different sizes and formats. In both this and Skirmish it still very much feels like you're playing AoS proper. I highly recommend getting the book (or the digital product at a much reduced price) and giving this a go with some mates.

We decided to make it a little more random by rolling for initial followers and then post game everything would also be done on random rolls (including whether you added followers or got a Champion/follower reward etc!). The only things we chose were out Command Trait and Artefact, which would be fixed for the entire day. Obviously some of the rolling was limited by our model collections, so we used common sense were necessary there.
My starting Warband was;

The Black Sunz
Pig Benis on the Red Cabbage - Brutish Cunning, Dabbing for Mork!
Da Youngerz (5 Ardboys)

I have to say, I was a little disappointed to roll up the Ardboys as I hoped for Gore-gruntas. My plan was initially to switch between Ironjawz and Beastclaw Raider tables for successive followers (you can branch out to your Grand Alliance after initial Warband creation) and pick up more Gruntas and Mournfang for a bit of a mounted force, but alas the dice gods did not will it! Anyway, let's give each of the games a little run down;

Game 101 - Altars of the Gods vs Matt Clarke (Sylvaneth)
We decided to play the Battleplans in order, with the exception of playing the Trial of Champions fourth, after we'd each played each other once.
I was up against Matt first, like me he was rocking a 6 model army, with 5 Spite Revenants backing up his Spirit of Durthu. In hindsight, we should've played this Battleplan much later in the campaign when we had more units. As it was, we didn't have enough to actually play for the main objective, which is the cool part of this Battleplan. The game essentially then become who could kill whose Champion quickest.
As it was, this went pretty quickly and we ended up running through it 3 times before resting easy in the knowledge that the charging Maw-krusha does over poor Durthu with incredible reliability. Oops! I did manage a Brutish Cunning charge in one of the games as well!! Good fun monster mash and gets me excited for what they have planned at RAW17.
Result - Major Victory

Post-Game - This was one of the two Battleplans where it was possible to get additional glory depending on the Alliance you beat, so I ended up with 4 as I popped a 3 on the D3. Nice! I was hoping I'd get to add some more followers to my Warband, but instead my Champion ended up with a roll on the reward table and got Big and Tough FAT for +1 wounds. Pretty decent.
Glory Total: 4

Game 102 - The Sacrifice vs Amy Clarke (Clan Pestilens)
This Battleplan is really really cool, was perhaps my favourite. As befitting Skaven, Amy had a somewhat larger army with her Corruptor being joined by a Plague Furnace and 20 Plague Monks. The Plague Furnace was the sacrifice victim and whilst I wasn't able to complete the ritual (my D3 rolls were appalling), I did still get a Major Victory by wiping her out (which tbh I didn't think was right, should've been more weight on completing the ritual).
Turns out the Cabbage dealt with the Corruptor and 20 Plague Monks pretty well, who knew! I have to say I hadn't really used the Ardboys much so far and was just playing solo with the Maw-krusha, which was kinda fun tbh. I rolled super well for the dabs this game, which countered the poor ritual rolls and also had him left on one wound due to some pretty savage mortal wound spells/prayers (remember he got +1 wound last game as well!).
Result - Major Victory

Post-Game - My luck with D3 rolls continued as I only got 1 glory point, despite getting to reroll the die!! Once again I failed to rally any new followers and obtained yet another bonus for my Champion. This time he got a Thunderous Charge, which gave him +1 to wound when charging. Tasty!
Glory Total: 5

Game 103 - The Vendetta vs Aaron Bailey (Disciples of Tzeentch)
Next up I was against my Megabro Aaron and his BBC! This Battleplan revolves around both players nominating a "rival" unit which the opponent has to try and kill to auto end the game on a Major. Aaron's chicken was back up by Horrors and Acolytes at this time and unsurprisingly when for his Champion as the rival. I mixed it up and opted to make my Ardboys the rival and promptly stuck them in the corner, making it a 3rd game essentially with just one model haha!
My plan was to smash into the Tzeentch lines quickly and take out the LoC on a double turn without him being able to reach my Ardboys in time. As it was, Aaron predictably saw this coming and bubble wrapped his Champion with both units. I managed to get into him early thanks to the Mighty Destroyer move (so good on the Cabbage) and did some damage with the scream and the bulk...however it just wasn't enough as when it came to Aaron's turn he promptly cast Infernal Gateway on me, followed by Tzeentch's Firestorm (on a natural 9!). No amount of sweet dabbing was gonna save me here, and he compounded the victory by confidently charging me with the Lord of Change and dealing the final blow in combat!
Result - Major Defeat

Post-Game - I did actually manage to get some new followers this time around and opted for some added punch with a unit of Brutes; Da Nobz! No table to roll on here, however as an elite option, they did cost one of my glory points.
Glory Total: 5

Game 104 - Trial of Champions vs Matt Clarke (Sylvaneth), Amy Clarke (Clan Pestilens) and Aaron Bailey (Disciples of Tzeentch)
This is the four way Battleplan and the only one we played out of order (made sense after we'd already had a round robin). By this point Aaron was undefeated and had assembled a powerful Tzeentch force...so in classic multiplayer fashion; we ganged up on him.
Unfortunately for me, my army ended up being the first wave and whilst I bloodied his nose severely, including the Brutes taking down the Lord of Change, my army was pretty quickly removed from the contest. I can't tell you too much more about the battle (other than some marital treachery between Matt and Amy!) as I sat in the corner playing Hearthstone!! Matt ended up winning this one.
Result - Major Defeat

Post-Game - I was very pleased to again pop a 1 on the D3, which meant more followers. I decided to get a bit fruity here and dipped my toe into the Beastclaw Raiders elite table and pick up a Mournfang Pack; Da White Boyz! As an elite pick these once again cost me the one glory point I obtained in the previous defeat.
Glory Total: 5

Game 105 - Cornered Amy Clarke (Clan Pestilens)
This was a super quick game...it was always going to be one way or another. I basically had to split my army (minus the Champion) into two portions, I went for the Brutes in one and the Ardboys/Mournfang in the other. Army got to pick one, she went for the Brutes, which I added the Cabbage to...I then didn't get to use the other units! So much for my new Mournfang!!
The Battleplan revolves around me having to escape my Champion off the table, which is potentially pretty easy for me, however I couldn't get Mighty Destroyers off. Amy played it corrected by smashing everything into the Cabbage and was able to take him down ftw! The Furnace was especially brutal with its big swinger (!) doing some horrendous damage.
Result - Major Defeat

Post-Game - This time I got my first follower reward and Da Nobz become Ard(ened Veterans). This gave them a reroll hit/wound/save each turn. Not bad!
Glory Total: 6

Game 106 - The Monolith vs Matt Clarke (Sylvaneth)
At this point Aaron was on 10 glory, so if he won his game vs Amy the campaign would be over. As it was, Amy was the one erecting (wahey!) the Monolith in that game, thus she won and we continued. Yeah...I kinda feel this one goes a little bit like that. I was the erectionist (not a word. Should be.) in this game and likewise, got a pretty easy win by just castling round the objective and stopping Matt getting to me. Mournfang were good in this role.
It's a bit of a shame as this is potentially one of the better Battleplans IMO. I would suggesting upping the total that the erectionist (I'm going with it!) needs as even with very average rolls it's gonna go up by T4, a bit over average and you can get it up on T3.
Result - Major Victory

Post-Game - For being a successful erectionist (I always am!), I gained +1 glory. I also popped a 3 on my D3 which was nice, so basically between this game and the first one vs Matt I'd achieved the lion's share of my overall glory! That should be it for the innuendo as well :P 
Once again I got more followers. I was hopeful of some Gore-gruntas but once again got Ardboys! Enter Da Yoofz.
Glory total: 9

Game 107- Beast's Lair vs Aaron Bailey (Disciples of Tzeentch)
So after a very long (but very fun) days gaming, here we were at the end. The final Battleplan. Both Aaron and Amy were on 10+ glory so as long as one of them won their game we'd have a clear winner. We decided that whatever the result though we would call it after this game. We'd played all 7 Battleplans, 2 vs each opponent and then the 4-way which worked out perfect IMO.
Anyway, Amy was not able to best Matt in their game and spoiler, Aaron got his comeuppance here. After losing out to the Tzeentch twice before I went all out here and thoroughly smashed him (as well as the poor feral Lord of Change we used as the Beast). It all went off after I got a juicy Brutish Cunning charge with my Maw-krusha, however the stars of the show were the Mournfang Pack who literally did not fail a hit roll with their Gargant Hackers over the game and killed 3 Skyfires, a Tzaangor Shaman and 10 Horrors. Good work! That damage 3 is so juicy when it goes through.
Result - Major Victory

Post-Game - Even though by this point we knew the day was over with no clear winner (we were all on 10+ glory!) we decided to roll out our post game. My Mournfang picked up a Numbing Chill, but honestly I couldn't tell you what it does haha!!
Glory total: 11

So the final Warband looked like this;

The Black Sunz (11 Glory)
Pig Benis on the Red Cabbage - Brutish Cunning, Dabbing for Mork!, Big and Fat, Thunderous Charge
Da Youngerz (5 Ardboys)
Da Nobz (5 Brutes) - Ardened Veterans
Da White Boyz (2 Mournfang Pack) - Numbing Chill
Da Yoofz (5 Ardboyz)

So what a great day that was! As alluded to throughout, the Path to Glory system is great. It really feels like you're playing AoS proper, which to me is key. It was fun, but still felt worthwhile as I got a lot of game time in with my GH2017 infused Cabbage, who I played in a super aggressive fashion all day. Thanks so much to Aaron, Amy and Matt for an awesome day. Perhaps we will get our Warbands together at some point in the future for one last Trial of Champions to decide the winner of the campaign? I'd like that.

Wow, well I'm not sure how long that'll be when put into a post, but it's taken some time to write out over the last few days haha!!
Hopefully some of you enjoyed reading about something different. I'll be back this week with some WiP photos and also a full 2,000 point Matched Play report vs @Paul Buckler and his Wanderers.

Thanks for reading!
Chris

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Great post Chris I like the idea of rolling for units on a path to glory especially if peeps collections are sufficiently field most things they roll :-)

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3 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Great post Chris I like the idea of rolling for units on a path to glory especially if peeps collections are sufficiently field most things they roll :-)

Cheers mate. Yeh it's a fun way of doing it. We allowed rerolls etc if a result was rolled that couldn't be fulfilled.

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Morning guys,

Sorry I didn't come back last week with my report on my game with @Paul Buckler. I wasn't feeling very well at the back end of the week so got a little behind on things. Hence going quiet on the forums!

I am just going to cheat now by linking to Paul's report, hopefully he doesn't mind. Firstly, my full list. Pretty sure I mentioned this above, certainly in the main Ironjawz thread;

Pig Benis on Cabbage - General, Ironclad, Dabbing
Weirdnob Shaman

10 Brutes
5 Brutes
5 Brutes
3 Gore-gruntas
3 Gore-gruntas
10 Ardboys

Gitmob Spear Chukka
Gitmob Spear Chukka

I honestly do not really know what to make of this list. Clearly it has some glaring weaknesses;

  • Only 2 Leaders. Clearly an issue for Duality of Death, the Maw-krusha will be expected to do a lot of heavy lifting. Lack of Warchanter seems strange!
  • Lack of Ironfist. I still very much think it is worth 160 points and I suspect my lists will end up with it in. But right now, it has to be said it's a real toss up between that and a unit of Brutes. With the 2 units of Gore-gruntas I do have the speed for early objective grabbing etc. We'll see though. There is also the consideration of the army dropping quicker.
  • Spear Chukkas seem to have a reputation for underperforming. Whilst I may well also end up subscribing to this way of thinking, I'd rather it comes from experience as opposed to theory. They offer something very different to the list and I'd be remiss not to at least try them out. In the above list I could swap them out for an Ironfist and a Warchanter.

But yeh, even with only one game of practice I am going to run with this at Facehammer GT. Seems as good place as any to get some solid practice in and start to establish where I want to go. It is a bit of a shame as ideally I'd be doing that outside of Tournaments to hone a list and hopefully place a bit better than I'm likely to do this weekend (getting the excuses in now eh?!) :D 

Game 108 - Battle for the Pass vs Paul Buckler (Wanderers)

If you click "Paul Buckler replied to a topic" above you can read Paul's report on the game.

I think that is definitely a fair summary of the game and tbh there wasn't much more for me to say about it anyway. I feel it was probably a more useful learning experience for Paul and whilst I felt a little bad for taking off the Nomad Prince (hence offering the take back) I reckon it was probably worth him essentially having to play a game without his General just to see the effect it had on his list (if it wasn't  obvious enough). Unfortunately for me though I didn't really learn much at all, other than reaffirming how resilient the Maw-krusha is with Ironclad - he had an absolutely fantastic T1 as described by Paul, the double 6/8 Destructive Bulk was unheard of for me. Completely game winning. Much like Path to Glory, he was pretty much the only model I used haha!

Result - Major Victory

In general it's worth consideration for everyone that round bases allow models to "tuck in" (even fractionally) when the models are spread out like that, which can allow a greater threat range than may be expected. Obviously Paul could've placed his models further back as he mentioned, but also could've tightened up the spaces between the Eternal Guard (as he didn't need them fully 1" spaced) which would've denied me as well.

I love the Wanderers army though, so much to think about! I had to waste 360 points of my army to stop him teleporting to my back/back side edges - I did feel this was necessary though. Felt rough having to utilise the likes of Brutes in that role, but allowing Paul to get on there just wasn't an option. It's not even just the back board edge that is the only problem, it's the fact they still keep accessibility to the side edges by stringing out units which means I can't reliably hold them off them either.

In hindsight, I do think Paul should've gone second. Wait for me to spread out and play the late game. I felt I had to play for the objectives but was wary of opening myself up. I think with the Prince alive, it's probably a win to Paul unless I get on his home objective early and double turn for a cheap 8 (which is possible with the Maw-krusha surging forwards).

But yeh....onwards to FHGT now! I still have some painting left to do this week and will share some photos once complete (potentially after the weekend). Ideally I'll be winning 3 games this weekend, I can't really target any higher than that at this stage unfortunately. Feels weird being so unsure about my army composition for the first time in so long!

Chris

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Afternoon Ardboys,

Help me! I'm having a wobble regarding my Facehammer GT list...I'd managed to put this very concern to the back of my mind but texting @Sangfroid this morning pre 8.30am was not a good idea and now I'm a bit more awake I'm feeling all unsure :S 

Ok so to refresh, this was my plan;

List 1

Maw-krusha - General, Ironclad, Dabbing (or something - maybe Boss Skewer with so many Brutes)
Weirdnob Shaman

10 Brutes
5 Brutes
5 Brutes
5 Brutes
3 Gore-gruntas
3 Gore-gruntas

Gitmob Spear Chukka
Gitmob Spear Chukka

Now the concern I mention is of course going to be one of the two most obvious ones I mentioned in my post from yesterday. It's not the Ironfist, I intentionally want to run without this for an event, it's the lack of a Warchanter. Kieran's tales of woe this morning alerted me to the fact the not only have I also lost this, but with the lack of Bellowing Tyrant (something people aren't discussing that much - but it is big!) as well, it has to be a concern. Even @Paul Buckler commented that it was weird my previous list not including a Warchanter. It is an odd place to be considering my first list in 2017 ran 3 of them!

I've been painting almost non stop for the last 4-5 days for FHGT (my missus is away which came at a good time tbh) and I still have a fair bit to do to finish. I'm painting the Spear Chukkas + crew as well as 3 more choppa armed Brutes (so I can field 3x5). I don't really want to not field these models given the time and effort put in and tbh don't really want to alter the list structure much. So, here are a couple of variants;

List 2

Maw-krusha - General, Ironclad, Dabbing (or something - maybe Boss Skewer with so many Brutes)
Weirdnob Shaman
Warchanter
Warchanter

10 Brutes
5 Brutes
5 Brutes
3 Gore-gruntas
3 Gore-gruntas

Gitmob Spear Chukka
Gitmob Spear Chukka

Bit annoying as the 3 Brutes I'm painting won't be needed, but I can always sub them into the existing units as they are cooler conversions etc. Other option is;

List 3

Maw-krusha - General, Ironclad, Dabbing (or something - maybe Boss Skewer with so many Brutes)
Weirdnob Shaman
Warchanter
Warchanter

5 Brutes
5 Brutes
5 Brutes
5 Brutes
3 Gore-gruntas
3 Gore-gruntas

Gitmob Spear Chukka
Gitmob Spear Chukka

Not sure how I feel about running without the unit of 10 Brutes though. Suddenly seems like the army lacks a focal point on the battlefield other than the Maw-krusha.

So what do we think? Should I just suck it up and run with the plan I had? Why is this so hard!!!! Really wish I could've had some proper practice. Aarrggghhhh! :S 

Feel free to refer to the lists by number. As annoying as it is (having built and started to paint the new Brutes), I am now thinking that List 2 looks to be the most balanced.

Thanks in advance,
Chris

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32 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

List 2

Maw-krusha - General, Ironclad, Dabbing (or something - maybe Boss Skewer with so many Brutes)
Weirdnob Shaman
Warchanter
Warchanter

10 Brutes
5 Brutes
5 Brutes
3 Gore-gruntas
3 Gore-gruntas

Gitmob Spear Chukka
Gitmob Spear Chukka

List 3

Maw-krusha - General, Ironclad, Dabbing (or something - maybe Boss Skewer with so many Brutes)
Weirdnob Shaman
Warchanter
Warchanter

5 Brutes
5 Brutes
5 Brutes
3 Gore-gruntas
3 Gore-gruntas

Gitmob Spear Chukka
Gitmob Spear Chukka

 

FYI these lists are identical bar the latter one being -1 unit of Brutes? Did you leave off Ironfist by accident or something?

 

Regardless, my penny....

I played 2 games at the weekend with no Warchanters whatsoever and the performance of the Brutes was noticeably lacking. I missed that +1 to hit in situations where I was fighting lesser infantry (and not getting any re-rolls). I know you've mentioned it a few times, as much as I love Megaboss on foot, (he's choppy and has that lovely 3+ save), but he can go entire games without doing much, especially as 140pts gets you Gruntas now. I'm currently writing lists with 2 chanters instead of a MB on foot, not only re-inserting that +1 to hit, but also making my hero-options more flexible.

That said! Megaboss on foot, does provide that re-rolling 1s, to multiple units (in distance), and it works in every combat phase (rather than the chanter's single combat phase buff) - so, there is scope for saying a single Megaboss on foot (positioned correctly) can have a wider benefit than a Warchanter (or 2). 

I'm still debating this, and it all comes down to what you can fit in the list I guess.

I'm also now using 4x5 Brutes, and I didn't miss the 10-strong unit to be honest... it gave me more flexibility and split my opponent's targeting up.

If you took 4x5, freeing up 180 in List2 for some Ardboys? Gives you a lot of bodies and still enough heroes. You've got 2 Warchanters in there so 2 sets of Brutes or your Krusha are getting the +1 each per turn?

 

Edited by Fungrim
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I agree with you @Chris Tomlin list 2 looks a lot more balanced and importantly has more IJ units overall to contribute to the Waagh roll. Also the Warchanters is some scenarios can act as objective holders when your confident they won't get assaulted meaning you can actually prosecute the enemy with all your combat power. (This I've noticed popping up in comments by yourself and others as well as in my games, leaving a unit of brutes to hold an objective just feels like 180 points wasted) 

the other thing to consider and I actually think this is more relevant than Warchanters effect on brutes is that goregruntas really really benefit from the Frenzy making them excellent first wave troops like in Da Books! I realised that I'm often in my games choosing to buff up the pigs Turn one and send them off and it's the following turns that the brutes get the frenzy.

i also think a ten man brute unit is just as auto include as a Mawkrusha now, not so much for smashing & bashing but also as an effective unit against things like 30 bloodletters, yes 5 brutes will hurt them but 10 should do enough that they are not only hurt but lose significant effectiveness when striking you back, 5 brutes may dent the big blocks but then get hurt back significantly in return

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1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Help me! I'm having a wobble regarding my Facehammer GT list...I'd managed to put this very concern to the back of my mind but texting @Sangfroid this morning pre 8.30am was not a good idea and now I'm a bit more awake I'm feeling all unsure :S 

Haha, i love this :) Trust bloody @Sangfroid

I agree with the comments already added, List 2 seems the most rounded. To add to @Sangfroid comment on the buff being utilized on the Grunta's, i also see them as a great unit to start of the Smashing and Bashing in later rounds as well. being able to use the speed to put them where you want to then kill and activate the  chain of combats could be key. the speed can hunt out some of the smaller / weaker  of the enemy units / heroes and with the right setup line up the big hitters to follow.

I also really find it hard only having 2 heroes. As mentioned you end up wasting a unit sitting on an objective that isnt threatened, but also with the smaller number of units / models in the Ironjawz lists you cant give up the killing power from the Brutes that would be sat there otherwise.

Also, definitely keep a unit of 10 Brutes. Such a solid second unit along with the Mawkrusha.

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Hey,

Thanks for the replies so far.

49 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

FYI these lists are identical bar the latter one being -1 unit of Brutes? Did you leave off Ironfist by accident or something?

Regardless, my penny....

I played 2 games at the weekend with no Warchanters whatsoever and the performance of the Brutes was noticeably lacking. I missed that +1 to hit in situations where I was fighting lesser infantry (and not getting any re-rolls). I know you've mentioned it a few times, as much as I love Megaboss on foot, (he's choppy and has that lovely 3+ save), but he can go entire games without doing much, especially as 140pts gets you Gruntas now. I'm currently writing lists with 2 chanters instead of a MB on foot, not only re-inserting that +1 to hit, but also making my hero-options more flexible.

That said! Megaboss on foot, does provide that re-rolling 1s, to multiple units (in distance), and it works in every combat phase (rather than the chanter's single combat phase buff) - so, there is scope for saying a single Megaboss on foot (positioned correctly) can have a wider benefit than a Warchanter (or 2). 

I'm still debating this, and it all comes down to what you can fit in the list I guess.

I'm also now using 4x5 Brutes, and I didn't miss the 10-strong unit to be honest... it gave me more flexibility and split my opponent's targeting up.

If you took 4x5, freeing up 180 in List2 for some Ardboys? Gives you a lot of bodies and still enough heroes. You've got 2 Warchanters in there so 2 sets of Brutes or your Krusha are getting the +1 each per turn?

Sorry, yeh @Sangfroid said the same regarding list 3. This should be 4x 5 Brutes. One of the units would have to have Jagged-hackas due to the models I have.

I fear the lack of a Warchanter would impact noticeably on the damage output of the Brutes, probably most notably on the 10 man unit tbh. I honest really struggle to see where you would fit a Megaboss into most lists at present (certainly the ones I'm writing), especially in non battalion lists where he doesn't even get an artefact.

Interesting theory with the Megaboss providing reroll's over the Warchanter's +1. I have to say I do feel like this is one of those things that sounds reasonable in theory, however on the table I suspect it may not come into play in the way you'd hope and would end up restricting movement (much like the old Ardnob's Command Ability).

Good to hear you've had decent mileage with 4x5. My first two games with the Bloodtoofs battalion I used 5x5 and tbh I felt like I was lacking that really juicy hammer unit in the 10 Brutes.

Urgh, so much I need to try. I swear I should be finding this process enjoyable and not stressful haha!

21 minutes ago, Paul Buckler said:

Go with your first thought Chris, def worth a Tournament run to test it out.

See I feel it's worth playing a run of games to test it out for sure, it's just a little bit of a shame that right now this equates to one of the biggest tournaments of the year. I was so confident with my list going into this event last year and that really showed with the run of solid results I was on 12 months ago. Feel miles off the pace right now.

4 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

I agree with you @Chris Tomlin list 2 looks a lot more balanced and importantly has more IJ units overall to contribute to the Waagh roll. Also the Warchanters is some scenarios can act as objective holders when your confident they won't get assaulted meaning you can actually prosecute the enemy with all your combat power. (This I've noticed popping up in comments by yourself and others as well as in my games, leaving a unit of brutes to hold an objective just feels like 180 points wasted) 

the other thing to consider and I actually think this is more relevant than Warchanters effect on brutes is that goregruntas really really benefit from the Frenzy making them excellent first wave troops like in Da Books! I realised that I'm often in my games choosing to buff up the pigs Turn one and send them off and it's the following turns that the brutes get the frenzy.

i also think a ten man brute unit is just as auto include as a Mawkrusha now, not so much for smashing & bashing but also as an effective unit against things like 30 bloodletters, yes 5 brutes will hurt them but 10 should do enough that they are not only hurt but lose significant effectiveness when striking you back, 5 brutes may dent the big blocks but then get hurt back significantly in return

Agree with everything there mate. Solid points throughout. I especially don't think I'd feel comfortable without the 10 man unit, but again, it probably needs testing. Strange how little wiggle room there is!

Is it stupid that the fact I've spent ages painting is most likely going to result in me taking a list that lets me use the new models!?

Appreciate replies but now feel in even more of a pickle than when I started. Maybe I should just take Flesh-eater Courts! ;) 

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12 minutes ago, ChippyRick said:

Haha, i love this :) Trust bloody @Sangfroid

I agree with the comments already added, List 2 seems the most rounded. To add to @Sangfroid comment on the buff being utilized on the Grunta's, i also see them as a great unit to start of the Smashing and Bashing in later rounds as well. being able to use the speed to put them where you want to then kill and activate the  chain of combats could be key. the speed can hunt out some of the smaller / weaker  of the enemy units / heroes and with the right setup line up the big hitters to follow.

I also really find it hard only having 2 heroes. As mentioned you end up wasting a unit sitting on an objective that isnt threatened, but also with the smaller number of units / models in the Ironjawz lists you cant give up the killing power from the Brutes that would be sat there otherwise.

Also, definitely keep a unit of 10 Brutes. Such a solid second unit along with the Mawkrusha.

I agree in part, however it's another of those very nice theoryhammer ideas and experience tells me that (even with Frenzy of Violence) Gore-gruntas cannot be relied upon to wipe out very much at all. Definitely a potential for it though and as you say the extra reach afforded by their movement does at least make this viable.

Regardless though, I definitely think Gore-gruntas are a must right now especially in non Ironfist armies, just to give the added movement for early objective grabbing. It is this over their combat potential (or lack thereof) that is most key to the way I would plan to use them.

2 Heroes is undoubtedly poor and another big concern of the original list :S 

Agree completely re the 10 Brutes and Cabbage remaining the centre of the army.

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@Chris T I had to have lunch today with Carl Smith and let him know (very gently) that there is a significant chance that the troll hag he has painted ready for me for FHGT may actually end up not being used...... I'm not "not" taking it yet I'm more just up in the air with the multitude of options, same way as you are :-)

6 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

*opens up Scrollbuilder*

*adds 10 Brutes*

*deletes 5*

*adds 5*

*deletes 5*

*repeats until early hours*

This has made my day btw, knowing I'm not the only one :-)

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25 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

I agree in part, however it's another of those very nice theoryhammer ideas and experience tells me that (even with Frenzy of Violence) Gore-gruntas cannot be relied upon to wipe out very much at all. Definitely a potential for it though and as you say the extra reach afforded by their movement does at least make this viable.

Regardless though, I definitely think Gore-gruntas are a must right now especially in non Ironfist armies, just to give the added movement for early objective grabbing. It is this over their combat potential (or lack thereof) that is most key to the way I would plan to use them.

2 Heroes is undoubtedly poor and another big concern of the original list :S 

Agree completely re the 10 Brutes and Cabbage remaining the centre of the army.

I certainly lack the experience of many here for sure, but it would be something i would look from with the Gore-Gruntas. I look forward to the first time of many i am sure they let me down when i think i have a great plan that they need to start by killing something >:(

Your right though, the movement will be great. 

At least you have the Spear Chukkas in here as well, as this will offer you that option of removing the heroes that can be a pain. Maybe more reliable than the Gruntas?

I know this is a little different again and your brain is already hurting, but how about this:

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
General, Ironclad, Dabbing (or something - maybe Boss Skewer with so many Brutes)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Boss Skewer
Orruk Warchanter (80)

10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Ironfist (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000

Little less models loosing 1 unit of the Gruntas but the army speeds up across the board so you dont feel the loss of their speed then. Its the list i have been focusing on mostly lately except i dont have the Spear Chukkas in.

Edited by ChippyRick
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Okay did a little bit of maths though I could have got it wrong.... 

% chance of a hit with a Warchanter frenzy buff (not including auto hits of smasha if Klaw hits) 

choppas/jagged gore hacka/boss choppa = 83% 

gore-choppa/Klaw/Brute smasha =66% 

% chance of successful hit with a Megaboss rerolling 1s:

choppas/JGH/BC = 72% 

gore-choppa/Klaw/BS = 58% 

 

the Megaboss is statistically better if you can buff 5 units with him at once over the equivalent 2 Warchanters frenzy (basically +1 to hit is twice as good as reroll 1s to hit) 

his buff is smaller but can put effect on multiple units at once (as opposed to frenzy) 

shorter range 5" over 10"

useless if target has 4+ wounds on starting profile

cant be used on other units 

however he puts a significant threat out there over the 2 Warchanters attacks, they have 5 more wound though assuming non mortal wound attacks they need around 24 no rend wounds to kill them he needs 21. 

Having gone thru this in my head he isn't as bad as I have allowed myself to believe, and maybe has a place in brute heavy lists, but needs to be viewed in a different way to his old battlebrew slugging, stormcast hewing previous incarnation? 

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@ChippyRick - Yeh that's a pretty standard/solid Ironfist build with the Spear Chukkas. Basically one of the first lists we saw people writing when trying to port old lists into the new GH. With the Ironfist included you can play with just one unit of Gruntas  and as the Megaboss can comfortably sit it out now, bringing in the Chukkas in his place offers a new threat. I would definitely play something like that with an Ironfist.

However for this event I certainly want to try a list sans Ironfist, just to experiment with more units on the table. It's possible we'll drift back to our old ways, but I do have a suspicion that weirdly the Ironfist may be less important given the loss of Rampaging Destroyers. I reckon I might've said the direct opposite originally, but the thought being with 2D6 everything used to be a bit more average if that makes sense? Need more games!!

@Sangfroid - Interesting bit of maths hammer there. My biggest concern is trapping yourself into playing in his bubble...kinda kills half the point of having the MSU, no? Also don't forget that we will be getting straight up rerolls some of the time as well, invalidating this purpose.

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3 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Afternoon Ardboys,

Help me! I'm having a wobble regarding my Facehammer GT list...I'd managed to put this very concern to the back of my mind but texting @Sangfroid this morning pre 8.30am was not a good idea and now I'm a bit more awake I'm feeling all unsure :S 

...

I would go with List 2 of those you presented.  I am a fan of the Warchanters, and I like having a 10-strong unit of Brutes in larger games - gives you something with some real hitting power.  Plus, wipe out a unit with it, and you can activate another thanks to the new Ironjawz Allegiance abilities (the name escapes me).  Not that it's impossible, but that will be harder to do with smaller units.

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Great discussion here guys! We may yet find the sweet spot for this faction! You guys seem to be the experts regarding the actual IJ units, but a proposal if I may regarding the artillery. Should the Bolt Throwers not be changed to Doom Divers? The spears are great but they're dependent on line of sight and to a certain extent, your enemy coming at you. The Doom Divers however need no line of sight, do D6 damage in batteries, have multiple shots, and are ideal for sniping out soft heroes. I'm still having nightmares about my recent major loss to a Sylvaneth army that was playing the Gnarlroot Wargrove. Their magic was insane. If I only had those Doom Divers to take out his Branchwych, could have probably turned the tide. Her death would have broke both of his battalion bonuses. The only issue would be if you were matched up against an army that doesn't have any soft heroes like Stormcast. At that point it would be a complete waste of 240 points.

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19 hours ago, Malakree said:

The other option is to drop one unit of piggies and put in a Megaboss on foot !

Try to abuse that reroll 1s

:D

This is a huge dilemma now - 140 pts either gets you a hero for Duality with a nice save and is great in combat, or, a shed-load of wounds that move quick and are good for early objective grabbing and are *probably* more applicable for the rest of the scenarios. Definitely no easy answer..

 

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Greatly enjoying the thread guys! Congrats to @Chris Tomlin and @Sangfroid on Facehammer too. 

Played against Ironjawz a couple times over the weekend with the trees. Definitely seemed like they need ally shooting.

Played around with a few lists afterward and thought this one was interesting, attached.

1. 4 Rock Lobbers for quite a bit of no-LOS 44" threat w/ potential for extra attacks on 6+ (or 5+ vs 10+ models).

2. Couple solid heroes for Duality of Death. Maybe Skewer instead on Megaboss on foot but love the damage potential w/ the extra rend.

3. Decent # of units/bodies with some diversity/adaptability. 

4 Rock Lobbers (or e.g. 3 Spear-Chukkas) seems like it could change the equation in certain matchups (lists/scenarios), where you could now hang back and potentially do some real ranged damage before exposing many of your units. In that regard, certain lists might decide to alpha-strike in response, but 10 Ardboys + 2x3 Gore-Gruntas should help with screening and keeping folks off the Rock Lobbers and Brutes. 

This is all theory, though...just wanted to share some initial ideas. Hoping to get in more games vs the 'jawz this coming weekend, this time w/ more shooting in their list!

PS Allegiance is supposed to be Ironjawz...forgot to change it in Scrollbuilder.

Screen Shot 2017-10-02 at 2.18.44 AM.png

Edited by scrubyandwells
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