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Killax

Let's chat: Magore's Fiends

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2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Nope. I mean in general. Cleave had been statistically meaningless for me.

I actually think I get how you are thinking.

I roll 2 hammers and my opponent rolls a crit - Cleave was meaningless
I totally whiff the entire attack - Cleave was meaningless
I roll 2 hammers and my opponent rolls 2 double support - Cleave was meaningless
I roll 2 crits and my opponent rolls 2 shields - Cleave was meaningless
My opponent doesn't even USE shields in the first place!

So yeah... There are a lot of outcomes where cleave wouldn't matter. However...! I think this in a way can be said about any combination of attack symbol, defense symbol and support. I need to roll hammers and still whiff or is defended by a crit. I got the advantage of support and it didn't matter. But Shadespire is a game where you DO miss a lot. If having that support or cleave pushes the probability from 1/10 to 2/10 it's not a waste (probability source: My ***).

On a fully subjective note, I enjoy cleave and feel it does a significant difference.

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Cleave is, factually, relevant. I'm not arguing that.

I'm just relating my own experience.

I could have two or three attacks that all hit and have cleave.

My opponent rolls one crit, and they all go away.

My opponent rolls no crit, and cleave doesn't matter because I got too many hits to stop with one die.

The above covers nearly every attack circumstance I've seen.

Now say I only get one hit with my cleave attacks and none are critical hits. This is usually the case with single-die attacks.

If my opponent crits, my cleave is ignored.

If he does not, he takes damage. This is where cleave has its greatest impact - one hit vs. one not-crit defense.

Then we have all the Dodge models out there. Skaven and Undead are pretty happy to ignore cleave most of the time, making built-in cleaves "wasted points" so to speak.

 

All I'm saying is that cleave, while a nice thing to see work when it does now and then, has not been noteworthy at all for us.

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So, in regards to Cleave, I decided (since I had some time to spare today at work), to make myself a spreadsheet so I could see just how usefull the ability can be, and found the ability to be mathematically significant most of the time.

The sheet itself can be found at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nV-p6mfJfTWV1qMa_0uUjzEhlDcYgDcUSj_jJzDU1kU/edit?usp=sharing

* Just note that whenever a change is made, it takes a while for GDocs to recalculate the odds... You can download it as an Excel file if you prefer...

* I've made a few tests and so far it seems my results are accurate, but if some don't seem to make any sense, let me know, I'll try to figure out what's wrong.

For those interested in numbers, here are is an example. Rolling 3 dice, looking for Swords, against an opponent on Guard:

Result w/o Cleave w/ Cleave Absolute Relative
Crit Success 32.99% 34.22%   +1.23% +3.74%
Success 5.26% 13.90%   +8.64% +164.30%
Total 38.25% 48.12%   +9.87% +25.82%
Fail+DriveBack 13.27% 10.80%   -2.47% -18.60%
Fail 48.48% 41.08%   -7.40% -15.28%
Total 61.75% 51.88%   -9.87% -15.99%

As can be seen above, our chances of getting a success increase from 38% to 48, which is a net 25% increase in success rate...

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32 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

So, in regards to Cleave, I decided (since I had some time to spare today at work), to make myself a spreadsheet so I could see just how usefull the ability can be, and found the ability to be mathematically significant most of the time.

The sheet itself can be found at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nV-p6mfJfTWV1qMa_0uUjzEhlDcYgDcUSj_jJzDU1kU/edit?usp=sharing

* Just note that whenever a change is made, it takes a while for GDocs to recalculate the odds... You can download it as an Excel file if you prefer...

* I've made a few tests and so far it seems my results are accurate, but if some don't seem to make any sense, let me know, I'll try to figure out what's wrong.

For those interested in numbers, here are is an example. Rolling 3 dice, looking for Swords, against an opponent on Guard:

Result w/o Cleave w/ Cleave Absolute Relative
Crit Success 32.99% 34.22%   +1.23% +3.74%
Success 5.26% 13.90%   +8.64% +164.30%
Total 38.25% 48.12%   +9.87% +25.82%
Fail+DriveBack 13.27% 10.80%   -2.47% -18.60%
Fail 48.48% 41.08%   -7.40% -15.28%
Total 61.75% 51.88%   -9.87% -15.99%

As can be seen above, our chances of getting a success increase from 38% to 48, which is a net 25% increase in success rate...

Love a good Spreadhseet! I'll get this saved and have a play when I get some time next week!

Just played two games in a Clash at Boards & Swords in derby, they're still playing now  but I'm up at 5 o'clock so couldn't stay as it would be a midnight finish! Wanted to report back that in my match ups against Orcs and Fiends that Magore was brilliant in all bar one game (played 5 total) and the amount of 1 hammer success' that went through due to Cleave was high! 

On a different note, the Fiends are the most fun warband I've played so far and quick thinker is a fantastic card!

Here's my deck for anyone interested:

https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,183,234,253,257,263,264,265,266,267,188,190,320,329,347,348,368,198,376,389,391,393,395,403,424,201,272,305,180,197,343,191,372

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@Spinsane thanks. Yeah I don't really see it being worthy of a discussion either. As stated before it's objectively better to have Cleave than to not have it. Effectively having a Warband with two Cleave models un-inspired is what gives Magore's Fiends their competitive edge. In addition to that they are unique to have it. But for all intends and purposes, objectively more Warbands are around with Shield defences as Dodge defences, objectively more models are around as such who are effected by Cleave vs models who arn't. In my opinion and experience no calculation is required to understand it. Meta's can varry but if your meta is like here, with a lot of popular Orruks and Stormcast choices you will massively notice it's effect. 

@Smed1986 cool deck, however I'd strongly suggest skipping all the Hold Objectives at this point. While you arn't running Earthquake and similar effects I believe that this meta actively rewards combat better now as it does Objective play. Because your Warriors also inspire with succesful hits I believe Magore's Fiends can quickly snowball into a hard hitting warband (allready the case) with solid survival (thanks to Upgrades). In many ways this applies to Orruks also, for them I also completely focus on melee Objectives. 

Lastly I'd try to find a place for Bloodslick Ground... Then again I'm also going to experiment with a the whole slew of Movement changes, Earthquake, Graet Concussion and Bloodslick Ground to see how well movement control pans out. What I like the most about Bloodslick Ground however is that it can prevent a lot of charges or assists Round 1 and 2 but also likely denies Objectives for round 3.

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1 hour ago, Killax said:

it's objectively better to have Cleave than to not have it.

fI your (environment) is like here, with a lot of popular Orruks and Stormcast choices you will massively notice it's effect. 

No one -not even me- is arguing that it's not better to have cleave than to not. I think we all agree that having the ability to bypass shield defense is good.

The argument is around "massively" noticing the value.

I will review the data presented, but I think my earlier post highlights that in nearly all practical situations, cleave just doesn't change outcomes enough to place a premium on having at - certainly not at the expense of having something else.

For instance, if I could give a fighter +1 damage or cleave, I would take the damage 95% of the time.

Cleave is squarely in the "nice to have" category. Useful here an there, but nothing I'd ever make part of my plan for success.

 

That said, I'm painting my Fiends now and look forward to some games soon!!!!

Edited by Sleboda
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I notice the massive difference, if you don't, that can happen due to several meta's playing their own warbands and have their personal preforances. What I see locally is that Objective based plans now largely seem abscent of the meta I play in. This can return, most just seem very overjoyed that at least half the warbands, more likely 5, favour melee and this does bring more excitement to the games. 

The option to obtain an additional damage is there as a neutral Upgrade card and Ploy. The option to obtain  Cleave however is only there indirectly through some Upgrade cards. Most certainly not all and in many cases even character bound. The fact that both Magore and Riptooth have acces to it without Power cards is for me what makes them so good in the first place. 2 Hammer damage is allright, with Cleave however it means that even double Shield defence (present in Stormcast) can still be awnsered. Something I experienced to be extremely difficult by non-Cleave models.

What is in the nice to have category but largely irrelevant for me is actually Knockback. Because due to the way combat assists work and the option to only push 'away' I rarely have used it. When I had I would even consider it a mistake some of the times later.
However with Bloodslick Ground I might actually be using it more often with this Magore's Fiends.

Lastly and more relevant here, Cleave matters a ton for Magore's Fiends because they Inspire with succesful attacks, which Cleave simply improves.
Good luck with your games @Sleboda.

 

Edited by Killax
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One thing of note is that there's a huuuuge difference between Cleave and Cleave on a Crit....

Cleave on a Crit won't help you when you get a hit and your opponent rolls a shield, whereas Cleave will.

It's easy to dismiss Cleave if the only instances you consider are those where you need a Crit for it to come up. I'll make some changes to my spreadsheet at some point today to highlight just how much of a difference there is between the two... 

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2 hours ago, Spinsane said:

One thing of note is that there's a huuuuge difference between Cleave and Cleave on a Crit....

Cleave on a Crit won't help you when you get a hit and your opponent rolls a shield, whereas Cleave will.

It's easy to dismiss Cleave if the only instances you consider are those where you need a Crit for it to come up. I'll make some changes to my spreadsheet at some point today to highlight just how much of a difference there is between the two... 

Totally agree, at the same time, the prime reason why I still like it with Riptooth offcourse is the 3 attack dice plus the amazing bonusses he obtains when he gets Inspired. Plus the downside on Riptooth feels almost non-existant because of that. Like the Stormcast I feel he doesn't need new attacks anyway, all I really wanted so far is improve his basic attacks. Great Strenght and the likes are excellent for that.

Perhaps the biggest factor for me liking Cleave so much is that it also thakes away from your opponents tactical options. As you showed, being on Guard does little then. More importantly though for me personally is having that improved chance for crushing Inspired Stormcast whilst not needing to rely on one very specific model to do that.

This is also why I like Sepulchral Guard and Orruks a lot, like Magore's Fiends there is quite some acces to Cleave and it allows us to continue cutting down enemies. 

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So, I made the necessary changes to my spreadsheet. Here's a new example:

3 dice (Swords) vs 2 (Shields)

w/o Cleave :

  • 33.60% Critical success
  • 9.12% Success
  • 13.12% Fail with DriveBack
  • 44.16% Fail
  • 42.72% Total Success
  • 57.28% Total Failure

w/ Cleave on Crit

  • 34.84% Critical success
  • 9.12% Success
  • 14.35% Fail with DriveBack
  • 41.69% Fail
  • 43.96% Total Success
  • 56.04% Total Fail

w/ Cleave

  • 34.84% Critical success
  • 19.61% Success
  • 6.33% Fail with DriveBack
  • 39.22% Fail
  • 54.45% Total Success
  • 45.55% Total Fail

As can be seen, Cleave on Crit here barely changes anything, Total chances of success barely moving upwards by about 3%. On the other hand, Cleave improves our overall chances of success by 27%!

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Thanks for crunching those numbers!  Cleave-on-Crit is pretty near useless, unless you're facing 2 defense figures who use block.  Even then, from your numbers it barely makes a difference.

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32 minutes ago, Daveman said:

Thanks for crunching those numbers!  Cleave-on-Crit is pretty near useless, unless you're facing 2 defense figures who use block.  Even then, from your numbers it barely makes a difference.

I was surprimsed myself at how useless it ends up being, truth be told, but then again chances *are* slim that it comes into play: Both players must roll Crits and roll just as many, and then the defender has to roll 1+ shield(s) out of the remaining dice.

And even then, if the attacker didn't roll any regular successes, this only turns a Fail into a Fail+DriveBack, not yet enough to cause damage...

So yeah, it ends up being a near useless ability when a Crit is required. However when it applies on every attack, it has quite a lot more impact, thankfully.

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I just destroyed tonight's tournament at the FLGS with Magore's Murder Friends.
Played best of 1 - three different opponents. Faced Skaven, Lesser Khorne and Orcs. All three warbands were wiped out, two of them before round 3.
Suffice to say I was very pleased with their performance.

To be fair, the orc fight was a close call. Basically what bit me in the *** was that I used so many "score immediately" cards in my deck. 
I had been a bit unlucky with my draws and certain events that didn't quite just align with my goals. But the big thing was, that once the orcs were all dead, I couldn't really score all my "immediately" anymore. I had all these insane murders, and they were trapped in an empty room with nothing to do!

I should have put both Annihilation in there! 

( I forgot to keep score on the usefulness of Cleave)

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1 hour ago, Goblin-King said:

I just destroyed tonight's tournament at the FLGS with Magore's Murder Friends.
Played best of 1 - three different opponents. Faced Skaven, Lesser Khorne and Orcs. All three warbands were wiped out, two of them before round 3.
Suffice to say I was very pleased with their performance.

To be fair, the orc fight was a close call. Basically what bit me in the *** was that I used so many "score immediately" cards in my deck. 
I had been a bit unlucky with my draws and certain events that didn't quite just align with my goals. But the big thing was, that once the orcs were all dead, I couldn't really score all my "immediately" anymore. I had all these insane murders, and they were trapped in an empty room with nothing to do!

I should have put both Annihilation in there! 

( I forgot to keep score on the usefulness of Cleave)

Any tips on deck building strategy?

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6 hours ago, phizzco said:

Any tips on deck building strategy?

Pure offensive. Everything that allows you to kill more and faster. Everything that gives you free actions. 
My objectives are almost entirely "score immediately".

Coming from objective skeletons, this was such a refreshing change of pace!

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32 minutes ago, Goblin-King said:

Pure offensive. Everything that allows you to kill more and faster. Everything that gives you free actions. 
My objectives are almost entirely "score immediately".

Coming from objective skeletons, this was such a refreshing change of pace!

Can only agree with the pure offensive call. In many ways Magore's Fiends remind me of the Orruks, which isn't a bad thing in shadespire at all because killing oppossing models is actually decreasing tactical options for your opponent and should win you the game more consistantly as objective play because you have more hand in this matter. Cleave assists in this role too and even while critical Cleave clearly isn't as good, it's still better to have that than nothing at all. Even if it's by the smallest of margins.

Comming from Garrek's Reavers and Orruks myself I really like Magore's Fiends because unlike Reavers you have a lot of saying in the matter of combat. As your experience grows with this Warband I think a slot of Annihilation is absolutely worth it. But feel free to share your full deck plans @Goblin-King because I also think that the more your local meta will get to know Magore's Fiends the more they will try to play around them. Luckily though our inspires are FANTASTIC to continue the assault. The only thing I would aim for as an opponent first would be to kill Riptooth ASAP. Movement 5 and double Dodge makes him a little too dangerous otherwise. But certainly we can keep opponents away from him and obviously don't need to deploy him upfront. In addition, like all Movemen 3 or slower Warbands, there is some round 1 advantage that can be taken out of them by deploying the boards long...

But let's have some cool card discussions! Here's the ones I think I like the most for the exclusive cards. Maby I forgot a ploy here?
image.png.7bcce00cb9801fda9a30547eb05ccfe0.png

Reasoning behind me liking these cards is both functionality and viarity of use.
- I think Bloodslick Ground can easily be as good as Earthquake, Great Concussion and other push/move effects. Once in combat offcourse certain models arn't effected at all, but I do really like how it allows us to continue a pressing advantage. Especially against Orruks and Stormcast I think they need the combat assistance to deal with out guys and this Ploy makes it very hard to assist in certain aspects of the turn.
- Daemonic Resilence is also there in Garrek's Reavers and quite obviously I like it here more because you can't really do much with 1 damage against this Warband. This is less the case with Garrek's Reavers as they have more 2 Wound models who then are easily indirect killing targets.
- Free Inspiration? I guess that's always a yes? I do wonder if you guys will use it more on Riptooth or Magore or perhaps even someone else. Gotta love this card. A lot of my issues with Garrek's Reavers would have been solved if they too had this card.
- Brutal Charge + Cleave is just amazing I believe but due to it being available to all I think it's a great inclusion.
- Likewise No Respite seems like a great Upgrade also who basically is there to ensure that the model that will die will be a risky one to thake out. It also doesn't ****** require adjecent enemy Fighters which makes it ever so slightly better.
- Great Strenth 2.0 is cool.
- Improving Weapon Mastery is cool also, but maby these two are even better replaced with more allround Upgrades?

Looking forward to read more opinions!

Cheers,

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8 minutes ago, Killax said:

- Likewise No Respite seems like a great Upgrade also who basically is there to ensure that the model that will die will be a risky one to thake out. It also doesn't ****** require adjecent enemy Fighters which makes it ever so slightly better.
- Great Strenth 2.0 is cool.
- Improving Weapon Mastery is cool also, but maby these two are even better replaced with more allround Upgrades?

Looking forward to read more opinions!

Cheers,

No Respite - it don't need "adjacent" in text, just cuz you restricted to range of your attack anyway, so you need to have attack action upgrade to this even matter.

Rage-fuelled Attacks and Wrathful Blows - I don't like them, just cuz they restricted to one fighter. I hate to have dead cards in hand.

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50 minutes ago, Reggi said:

No Respite - it don't need "adjacent" in text, just cuz you restricted to range of your attack anyway, so you need to have attack action upgrade to this even matter.

Rage-fuelled Attacks and Wrathful Blows - I don't like them, just cuz they restricted to one fighter. I hate to have dead cards in hand.

The non-adjacenet clause has mattered a lot for me in the past as I still like Shadeglass Darts for reasons like this. So here too I wouldn't ever dismiss this card.

I do agree with the latter two Upgrades in terms of sole usage, they might not be in the deck after some testing. Having said that, due to cards like Bloodslick I think we have enough control pieces to decide who's going to die or who's not going to die. In addition 4 Wounds are a world of difference compaired to 3. But then again decks are filled quickly with all the new cards I suppose.

Edit: The other thing I do like about Raage-Fuelled Attacks and Wrathful Blows also is that it makes the Gorefist ever so slightly better. 

Edited by Killax

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2 hours ago, Reggi said:

No Respite - it don't need "adjacent" in text, just cuz you restricted to range of your attack anyway, so you need to have attack action upgrade to this even matter.

3

Surely the order is:

  • Attacked by opponent
  • Opponent kills model
  • Reaction allows you to make an attack

You never get to the push step because you don't push dead models - they are removed instantly. So range doesn't matter.

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8 minutes ago, glitch said:

Surely the order is:

  • Attacked by opponent
  • Opponent kills model
  • Reaction allows you to make an attack

You never get to the push step because you don't push dead models - they are removed instantly. So range doesn't matter.

If enemy that kill our fighter is in range 1 of that dead fighter then ofc it looks that way. I was refering to situation when our fighter was killed by ranged attack, cuz only then that "adjacent" on card wording matter. When enemy is already adjacent to us, it don't matter if that word is on card or not, cuz it will work that same way anyway, so that would be pointless to talk about that when our fighter is already in attack reach. So, you can't do attack, if range of your attack don't allow to, even if card say "do attack action".

Edited by Reggi

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OBJECTIVES:
Escalation - With all these score immediately, it's easy to score.
Swift Advance
Precise Use of Force
Denial - This saved me when I had killed everything and needed more glory.
Advancing Strike
Victory After Victory
Victorious Duel
Bane of Champions - This and/or Victorious duel? For now I keep both. It WILL be leader or doggo that kills enemy leader. Who is hard to predict.
No Escape
All the Better to Slay Them - This has to go! At only 1 glory it's trigger is actually too rare. You tend to kill those enemies adjacent to your fighters. 
Khorne Sees Us
Show of Strength

PLOYS:
Quick Thinker
Second Wind
Trap - see below
Twist the Knife - This and "Trap"... GODLIKE. You don't think Ghartok can one shot you? Think again! Auto-include in any combat deck.
My Turn
Spoils of Battle - Can really help get the ball rolling
Furious Inspiration - Use on leader or doggo depending on the situation.
Fuelled by Fury - I don't think I even drew this one. Useful for an important must kill attack.
Ready for Action - Always a good card, but especially for this deck as you score a lot of glory during your activations.
Lethal Strike - On the fence about this. I never got to use it, as my damage output was always high enough. Could be useful turn 1 I guess.

UPGRADES:
Daemonic Maw - never saw use for this. Either things couldn't finish him before dying themselves, or they could one shot him.
Awakened Weapon
Great Fortitude
Brutal Charge - auto-include. Distribute as the situation dictates.
Great Strength
Incredible Strength
Helpful Whispers
Soultrap
Concealed Weapon
Trusted Defender

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20 minutes ago, Goblin-King said:
Spoiler

 

OBJECTIVES:
Escalation - With all these score immediately, it's easy to score.
Swift Advance
Precise Use of Force
Denial - This saved me when I had killed everything and needed more glory.
Advancing Strike
Victory After Victory
Victorious Duel
Bane of Champions - This and/or Victorious duel? For now I keep both. It WILL be leader or doggo that kills enemy leader. Who is hard to predict.
No Escape
All the Better to Slay Them - This has to go! At only 1 glory it's trigger is actually too rare. You tend to kill those enemies adjacent to your fighters. 
Khorne Sees Us
Show of Strength

PLOYS:
Quick Thinker
Second Wind
Trap - see below
Twist the Knife - This and "Trap"... GODLIKE. You don't think Ghartok can one shot you? Think again! Auto-include in any combat deck.
My Turn
Spoils of Battle - Can really help get the ball rolling
Furious Inspiration - Use on leader or doggo depending on the situation.
Fuelled by Fury - I don't think I even drew this one. Useful for an important must kill attack.
Ready for Action - Always a good card, but especially for this deck as you score a lot of glory during your activations.
Lethal Strike - On the fence about this. I never got to use it, as my damage output was always high enough. Could be useful turn 1 I guess.

UPGRADES:
Daemonic Maw - never saw use for this. Either things couldn't finish him before dying themselves, or they could one shot him.
Awakened Weapon
Great Fortitude
Brutal Charge - auto-include. Distribute as the situation dictates.
Great Strength
Incredible Strength
Helpful Whispers
Soultrap
Concealed Weapon
Trusted Defender

 

Your deck is very, very similar to mine. :) 

All the Better to Slay Them - i tested it a bit and i agree, we kill things, i would need to force my self to move instead of charge to do it. Not worth to take in my opinion. Maybe in less aggressive strategy.

Daemonic Maw - i tried it too and i throw it away. It never would made a diffirence if i would play it or not in my test games. Waste of slot for card that could work 1 of 10 matches, that i almost never want to waste glory on. That card look great in theory.

Swift advance - i tried i too, but i was not happy about it. Sometimes it gave me a choice, go on enemy territory or kill enemy that went on my territory. Sometimes i got it after i charged and killed enemy on my territory (by scoring immediately objective for that kill) and i didn't had chance to do it in that round. I prefer Master of War or Ploymaster, cuz in most cases both are easier to do then Swift Advance, they give me that same amount of glory at that same phase and they don't force me to do activation in a way that i didn't want to do, I prefer to play a ploy that i don't need to. But it's for sure not a bad card. :) 

My deck (still in testing, waiting to see how meta will evolve, so there sure will be changes in future - next test should be on friday, i have small tournament with friends):

Spoiler

Objectives (12)
Bane of Champions
Khorne Sees Us
No Escape
Show of Strength
Advancing Strike
Escalation
Massive Assault
Master of War
Ploymaster
Precise Use of Force
Victorious Duel
Victory After Victory

Ploys (12)
Daemonic Resilience
Furious Inspiration
To the Victor, the Spoils
Inspiration Strikes
Lethal Strike
My Turn
Quick Thinker
Ready for Action
Second Wind
Spoils of Battle
Trap
Twist the Knife

Upgrades (12)
Brutal Charge
Awakened Weapon
Concealed Weapon
Great Fortitude
Great Strength
Helpful Whispers
Incredible Strength
Light Armour
Shadeglass Axe
Soultrap
Tethered Spirit
Trusted Defender

 

Edited by Reggi

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I'm missing Time Trap in both of your decks. I always thought of it as an auto include in aggro decks. Can you elaborate why you don't run it?

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