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Killax

Let's chat: Magore's Fiends

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14 hours ago, Kimarous said:

Mildly amused that their warscroll includes rules for Magore's stomach maw. We've had models of Blood Warriors with tummy-mouths before, but it looks like Magore is the only one who thinks to, well, USE it. :P

It was mentioned somewhere in the spoilers that there is an upgrade card having to do with his maw. i'm assuming its a weapon of some sort that's maybe a reaction attack when Magore is hit or missed. 

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Am I wrong or are a lot of the Magores fiend specific cards copies of the Reavers cards? :/

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4 hours ago, Mikeymajq said:

Am I wrong or are a lot of the Magores fiend specific cards copies of the Reavers cards? :/

No.  Sadly you are not.  This makes Reavers (or Magores) an incredibly ****** move by GW 

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There are some overlaps, but there are also differences. You’re looking at two units with similar (and yet different) rules that still have options.

It bears repeating that unconstructive criticism doesn’t really help.

2 hours ago, Zerthin said:

This makes Reavers (or Magores) an incredibly ****** move by GW 

I feel that it gives an alternate way to play Khorne mortal forces, with access to cleave and they’re not quite as fragile. With a more resilient stat line it means that they are a familiar jump from the Reavers from a core Cards perspective. And if you don’t like the core cards ... there are a couple of other alternatives available in the generic options. (And if it really isn’t your play style there are six non-Khorne forces available to choose from.)  

They have 4 units, rather than 5... which means they’re on par for rolloff with Orrucks, and beat everyone else other than Stormcast. And better opportunity for board setup control.

The Cards have reasonable objectives and it will be interesting to see what Riptooth the Fleshhound brings to the table.

At the end of the day, there are multiple variables in the equation. Off the cuff anger posts don’t help out the community.

Edited by TheOtherJosh
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6 hours ago, Zerthin said:

No.  Sadly you are not.  This makes Reavers (or Magores) an incredibly ****** move by GW 

I was wondering how hey were going to make them play like a Khorne warband (charging/attacking for objectives) and support them with their specific cards without them being a copy of the Reavers. I like the outcome, they have some copies and some unique whilst giving Khorne as a whole a specific style

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Riptooth + Concealed Weapon can be pretty great. After inspiration we have 1 range/3 swords/3 damage, but if we have crit it will turn to 5 damage and cleave. With 3 dices, chances for crit are pretty good. And we can always play something like Blood Frenzy or Glory to Khorne to increase chances for this attack.

Edited by Reggi
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17 hours ago, Mikeymajq said:

Am I wrong or are a lot of the Magores fiend specific cards copies of the Reavers cards? :/

Copies and improves most of the time. The issue in my opinion is that the Magore's fiend looks much better than the reavers. With 1 specific card and 1 universal ploy making a model inspired, they also have 4 movement with 2 or 3 model. Hit harder (Saek still do 3 damages but Magores has basic cleave). 16 wounds in total, with good defenses.

Rivers Of Blood just gives you 2 glory for playing Shardgale (with Blooded and Scent of Victory it is 4 glory just for playing 1 ploy)

 

Edited by Biboune

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Yeah, as much as i like the reavers, Magore's fiends look like an upgraded version

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13 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

There are some overlaps, but there are also differences. You’re looking at two units with similar (and yet different) rules that still have options.

It bears repeating that unconstructive criticism doesn’t really help.

I feel that it gives an alternate way to play Khorne mortal forces, with access to cleave and they’re not quite as fragile. With a more resilient stat line it means that they are a familiar jump from the Reavers from a core Cards perspective. And if you don’t like the core cards ... there are a couple of other alternatives available in the generic options. (And if it really isn’t your play style there are six non-Khorne forces available to choose from.)  

They have 4 units, rather than 5... which means they’re on par for rolloff with Orrucks, and beat everyone else other than Stormcast. And better opportunity for board setup control.

The Cards have reasonable objectives and it will be interesting to see what Riptooth the Fleshhound brings to the table.

At the end of the day, there are multiple variables in the equation. Off the cuff anger posts don’t help out the community.

While you are right I simply answered to a question. Magores and Reavers do have a lot of similarities which I confirmed. I added an emotional comment which wasn'y necessary. In my defense I was coming back from great shadespire event where any reaver player (me included) got crushed by massive legions of Orruks so I was feeling pretty down.

 

Now to the differences you listed: please note that what you mentioned are not really a differencess in play but straight upgrades on behalf of Blood Warriors. Sadly they do mostly look like more powerful Reavers and where they don't Skaven come in. It is by no means fault of Magores. It's mostly that Reavers are really odd warband that struggles to find it's niche.

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+++MOD EDIT+++ Sorry @Reggi, no pics until the expansions have hit the wyld :)

Both Zharkus and Ghartok have reaction ability when enemy fail attack on them. Diffirence is, that Zharkus on failed attack can't be driven back and do his reaction attack. So he can't be driven back only when enemy fail his attack, so this matter only on draws. When Ghartok have "can't be driven back" as second ability and it will work even when enemy deal damage to him. He will never be driven back. Another thing Zharkus have knockback 1 on his first attack. In other things they are exacly that same.

After inspiration:

Zharkus: First attack +1 dice, Second attack +1 dice, +1 move

Ghartok: First attack +1 dice, Second attack +1 dice, +1 move

Hound: +1 damage to attack, +1 move, +1 defence dice

Magore: +1 damage to attack (this attack have cleave in both forms), +1 move

 

I will test them, but right now Concealed Weapon is auto-included for me. We have 3 fighters that throw 3 dices on attack without any boost. That upgrade will work great on Hound, Zharkus and Ghartok. Against enemy that have fighter with 5 wounds we want it more on Hound, to one-shot that fighter, but against other factions it will work similar on all of them (they will one-shot every enemy fighter on crit - at least without upgrades to wounds).

 

Edited by RuneBrush
Removed leaked pictures
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On 10/4/2018 at 9:00 AM, Reggi said:

Riptooth + Concealed Weapon can be pretty great. After inspiration we have 1 range/3 swords/3 damage, but if we have crit it will turn to 5 damage and cleave. With 3 dices, chances for crit are pretty good. And we can always play something like Blood Frenzy or Glory to Khorne to increase chances for this attack.

Can you put a Concealed Weapon on Riptooth? What exactly does "cards that have attack actions" encompas? 

 

Just weapons with an attack stat-line or any effect that triggers upon attacking like rerolling, pushing or anything else?

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5 minutes ago, Zimagic said:

Can you put a Concealed Weapon on Riptooth? What exactly does "cards that have attack actions" encompas? 

 

Just weapons with an attack stat-line or any effect that triggers upon attacking like rerolling, pushing or anything else?

You can. He can't get "upgrades which are Attack Action".

He can't get new attacks. Like Shadeglass weapons or Daemonic Weapon. He can use attacks only from his chart. He can get upgrades that boost attacks like Great Strength, Concealed Weapon or Awakened Weapon, cuz those are not attack actions.

Edited by Reggi
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Yeah still looking forward to this Warband. As far as I can see it at least has acces to two Cleave models so we can talk about this Warband.

Do I still think both Stormcast and Orruks have an edge advantage of this Warband? Yes, but only slightly. Reason being that Farstriders still inspire easier and do obtain 2 Shields on Inspire and Orruks just inspire the moment we're talking Shadeglass Gale. If that is followed up with some healing then Khorne is in big trouble.

But I do really like where Magore's Fiends stands. As before, we have Magore himself which is excellent and only wants additional damage for his own attack. Riptooth is a great secondary attacker and his speed allows you to set him up easier and respond to lategame threats. The longer he lives the better.

Lastly our two goons can do things too so I'm totally cool with this Warband. To me Cleave is key. It's the prime reason why Skaven and Undead mattered and why I cannot forsee myself playing Garrek's Reavers anytime soon with competitive intend.

Cheers,

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Well, i will get both new expansions today (courier already called). And i will test a bit with my friends today. My first deck for testing (deck made for testing some cards, combination and faction, none-competive):

Objectives (12)
All the Better to Slay Them
Bane of Champions
Khorne Sees Us
No Escape
Show of Strength
Advancing Strike
Denial
Escalation
Precise Use of Force
Swift Advance
Victorious Duel
Victory After Victory

Ploys (12)
Daemonic Resilience
Furious Inspiration
To the Victor, the Spoils
Inspiration Strikes
Lethal Strike
My Turn
Quick Thinker
Ready for Action
Second Wind
Sidestep
Spoils of Battle
Twist the Knife

Upgrades (12)
Brutal Charge
Daemonic Maw
Awakened Weapon
Concealed Weapon
Great Fortitude
Great Strength
Helpful Whispers
Incredible Strength
Shadeglass Axe
Soultrap
Tethered Spirit
Trusted Defender

 

Like you can see, its total aggression strategy from the start. A lot of "immediately" objective cards, only one on 3rd turn. Two ploys that inspire my fighters, Spoils of Battle for fast upgrade. I want to go hard on enemies as soon as i can and with advantage on my side.

Edited by Reggi
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So, my first impressions with Magore's Fiends.

I played 3 games with them using that deck i posted above and my friend played them aswell with his own deck.

I won all 3 games, one mirror with my friend Magore's Fiends, Orruks and Khorne Berserkers (all agressive decks).

My friend won 2 games and lost one. Ofc, he lost against me, but won against Orruks and Dwarfs.

For now new Khorne's warband and Skavens are my favorite factions right now. I did play only 3 games so far, but i have feel that they are just better Orruks. Both Regular fighters are a lot better than Hakka and Basha. Hound is better for me than Bonekutta (more move, i prefer 2 defence dices on dodge than 1 on shield and 3 attack dices on swords are better for me than 2 on hammers). Only leaders are pretty even, Gurzag have 5 wounds after inspire and can re-roll dice when attacking, when Magore have more move and have cleave (even before he inspire).

Every fighter from Magore's Fiend is great threat, even before inspire (where Hakka and Basha before inspire can be pretty much ignored). Enemy have hard time to decide who he want to take off. Ofc, it's to early to tell for sure how this will look in future and how meta will shift with all new cards and all, but my Orruk friend was using new cards (Shardgale, ploy that inspire fighter) and all Orruks were dead at 3 round. 

And about Shardgale in Orruks. I don't feel it. Playing against me it was played in first turn, and i had feeling, that even that all of them get inspired, that 1 wound on every fighter help me more then them. Drop from 4 wounds to 3 is huge against other aggressive faction. It was Orruks bigest advatage that they can take hit. When you play Shardgale you basicly lose it, except leader all your fighters are in one-hit reach. And against faction like Magore's Fiend (all fighters, except leader with cleave, throw 3 dices on attack after inspire - two of them on hammers and only those two have damage 2 - easy to boost it to 3) it is deadly for Orruks. I see that card more in Skellies or Skavens, cuz drop from 2 to 1 is bad only against Farstriders and thier ranged attacks that have 1 damage, and i don't know if even them would like to play it.

I will not write about most cards yet, cuz with only 3 games, some of them i didn't even played yet. But first impressions about few of them:

All the Better to Slay Them - not worth to take. We kill enemies too easy and you can't be adjacent to dead fighter.

Bane of Champions - Every time when i got it on my hand enemy leader was dead. My friend did it once. For me it's worth taking, Riptooth don't have a problem with killing things. He can even one-shot wound 5 fighters if you play Concealed Weapon or Lethal Strike.

Khorne Sees Us - against aggressive factions easy to do even in round 1. Can not be easy in round 1 against objective factions, but we will see.

Victory After Victory - hmm... i did it 2 times, but im still not sure. Probably only in decks that focus on early aggression with a lot of "immediately" objective cards, cuz you need to do at least one of them before end step.

To the Victor, the Spoils - Tbh, i put that card in my deck just to check it out, but i was sure that it will not be great, but every time i got it on my hand i didn't had any problems to do it and i think i will keep it in. It can be bad card against Skaven or Skellies, cuz thier 2 wound trash fighters, but they have more wound fighters too, so there is always option to do it. 3 bonus cards are great.

Quick Thinker - really great option. It gives you a lot if you use it to go away from enemy charge and move to other enemy to attack him on your activation.

Inspiration Strikes, Furious Inspiration - great cards for early aggro strategy. I was always happy when i got them, even on round 2. Only bad when all your fighters are already inspired (i never had that problem in that 3 games).

 

Another thing, with so many "immediately" objectives, 2 times I wasn't able to get 3rd objective card in end phase in round 2. So i had only 2 cards in round 3, but i had a lot of glory points :)

Edited by Reggi
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On 4/13/2018 at 3:18 AM, Killax said:

To me Cleave is key

Why? I mean, I get the obvious thing that it's nice to have, but in my games, we've been informally tracking times when cleave has mattered, and it so very rarely comes up.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that it has only affected an outcome in maybe 2 in every 100 results for us.

Edited by Sleboda

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6 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Why? I mean, I get the obvious thing that it's nice to have, but in my games, we've been informally tracking times when cleave has mattered, and it so very rarely comes up.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that it has only affected an outcome in maybe 2 in every 100 results for us.

I guess you dont face a ton of Stormcast-Orruks locally then...

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On 13-4-2018 at 12:15 PM, Reggi said:

Like you can see, its total aggression strategy from the start. A lot of "immediately" objective cards, only one on 3rd turn. Two ploys that inspire my fighters, Spoils of Battle for fast upgrade. I want to go hard on enemies as soon as i can and with advantage on my side.

With the double pushes being in the game I see total aggression stratagies not only as the best but also the only serious contender for games. Was very different in the start but it is what it is.

I think your list looks solid, I'll eagerly give it my own twist once I've catched up with it all. What I can say is that Magore's Fiends feel like the Warband who's ready for action and this is obviously a good thing. So while I can't forsee myself going for Garrek's, I like where this is going!

Also are you guys interested in coversion and own base progressions? Will probably pick up this box this Friday, if the store still has it then...

Cheers,

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9 hours ago, Killax said:

I guess you dont face a ton of Stormcast-Orruks locally then...

I do, but it really doesn't come up much that either I don't roll a critical or the opponent doesn't.

Cleave only matters when there dice comparisons of non-equal results with criticals and shields matter.

It's hyper-specific.

:Shrug:

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

I do, but it really doesn't come up much that either I don't roll a critical or the opponent doesn't.

Cleave only matters when there dice comparisons of non-equal results with criticals and shields matter.

It's hyper-specific.

:Shrug:

I think Killax is referring to Cleave in general and you're thinking specifically on Riptooth?

For me it's been great on Magore and come up a LOT (which as a lot can be in this short time), but then the same as you on Riptooth so far it hasn't really mattered 

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Nope. I mean in general. Cleave had been statistically meaningless for me.

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11 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Nope. I mean in general. Cleave had been statistically meaningless for me.

Are you that much lucky (or your enemies)? :)  That against block defence one of you have crits (or total miss)? 

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46 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Nope. I mean in general. Cleave had been statistically meaningless for me.

Shield Defense having been ruining my games. :(

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5 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I do, but it really doesn't come up much that either I don't roll a critical or the opponent doesn't.

Cleave only matters when there dice comparisons of non-equal results with criticals and shields matter.

It's hyper-specific.

:Shrug:

I completely dissagree with you. As shields are relevant to most Warbands, certainly not all, but  what Cleave has so far done in directly for me is decrease the dice result of my opponent's outcome by 33% . I'd roughly say this matches my experience also, it has mattered about 1/3rd of my attacks, which is rather a lot when you think about it. Which reflects massively versus Stormcast (2x), Orruks and most certainly don't forget Blood Warriors or Fyeslayers.

Better put Cleave is the most relevant ability in the game because we have 5 Warbands where it matters against and no card (feel free to help remind me if there are) allows you to ignore Cleave like you can knockback or change dodges to shields etc.

Cleave always matters because it makes your opponets dice outcome matter less. No, my results are not based on Criticals most of the time. Especially when both players have rolled a Crit Cleave starts to matter even more because Shield results are still negated. 

Because effectively speaking Magore's Fiends start out with 2 Cleave models it's allready twice as effective against 5 out of the 8 Warbands as Garrek's Reavers are. Without upgrades, ploys or anything. Without doubt just by fighter cards Magore's Fiends are better as Garrek's Reavers. Then when you look at the similar exclusive Power/Upgrades they have it becomes very clear that Garrek's Reavers are underpowered. Lastly Cleave has directly caused the Gaurd Activation to be nearly irrelevant as an Activation.

TLDR; Cleave is relevant against 5 out of the 8 Warbands, then 2 out of these 5 Inspire to double Shield defence and all others can obtain additional Shield defences through upgrades. Since day 1 my issue wasn't dice outcome with Garrek's Reavers, my issue was that I had little no no ways to statistically beat Shields with Swords, which is still the case.

Edited by Killax
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