What are your tactics for the double turn?

[Olincay]

Yes, it is THAT subject again, the double turn. 

But instead of divulging into a topic of i love/hate the double turn, I was thinking we could have a rational discussion on everyones approach tactically for the double turn.  

Do you always play for it? 

Is it just a case of bubble wrapping effectively to negate being double turned?

Do you just build a army that doesn't care about  being double turned?

How important is board controll?

Of course this will vary on what army you are running and what you are facing against. 

Allright, go! 

 

 

[Freejack02]

1. Look at army across the table  2. Adapt accordingly.

[Qaz]

How i deal with double turn is to only take risks when you have the bottom turn of a battleround hah. When I mean risks are things like KO-ship drop, risky 9" charge from reserves, or putting a hero on Duality of Death.

[Malfunct Bot]

Due to the way my army is built I almost always finish deploying last and get made to go first (Freeguild. Lots of units and a slow moving, short ranged gunline) so I generally always plan around the idea my opponent is going to get their double turn immediately. Hunker down, get in position as much as possible, set up my buffs and try to inflict as much damage on my opponent while taking as little in return so that I can hopefully break my opponent in my own turn. This does mean sacrificing objectives in the early game in the hopes of catching up late game.

[Nubgan]

Ask yourself this question everytime, can I take 'that charge' or 'am I leaving them too exposed' I find its the end of the first turn to loose a double turn is the worse so I tend to play a little bit conservatively in the first turn. Keep important things protected/hidden and don't ever over extend or isolate something unless you really need to deny something to stay in the game.

It's really hard to plan perfectly for, but everything in this game generally is unless the person your playing against plays in a certain way with a certain list.

[BunkhouseBuster]

I've only ever really played with my Ironjawz, and they are rather limited in their strategies: charge forward and hit stuff!

My main strategy is this:

1. Put Brutes and Gore-gruntas up to edge of deployment, making the first line and push onto their objectives.
2. Put Ardboys and Heroes in the second line, immediately behind the first line, and to help hold backfield objectives.
3. Take second turn, charge everything in as hard and fast as possible.

If double turn, great - my Brutes get to attack with full buffs on them, and my Gore-gruntas go where needed (either the flank or to objectives).  If not, then I still have a bunch of Brutes and Gore-Gruntas in my opponent's face that he has to deal with, with some Ardboys and Megabosses to clean up.

Seriously, they are the Leroy Jenkins of AoS armies, as the only tactics really involve which Ironjawz unit goes into which enemy unit.  I like the honest simplicity of it, and will keep playing them until I get my next army built up.  I have had decent luck with my army and tactics thus far, winning more than half of my games against anything except the cheesy tournament lists, and then I can still give them a run for the win (on objectives) by playing smart and getting lucky dice rolls.  Advance with a steady pace, and never let up.  Waaagh!

[Jamopower]

I try to play quite conservatively, without exposing myself too badly to mitigate the effect of the double turn. On the other hand I also push only with stuff that I can lose when risking for the double turn. This contributes to it having lesser impact on my games. Of course very often I forget the whole thing and end up in a situation, where I can just watch when my plans go very wrong .

[NemoVonUtopia]

I usually don't base my plans around the double turn. Most of the time I am playing as and against melee focused armies so once most units are in combat don't matter quite as much. If I don't think I need my hero abilities and buffs first turn then I will choose to go second if possible but that is more to get my opponent to get closer to make it easier for me to charge. With my ranged list, I have durable blockers so if i get double turned my ranged units should sitll be protected on my opponent's second turn.

[Carnelian]

I just always assume I will get the double turn and when I don't, I scream

[Somanlius]

I usually build lists with a few units as screens just in case of a double turn. When I find myself needing a double turn in the game for a chance at victory, I know I played things wrong. 

All my armies are about the counter charge anyway. My High Aelves sacrifice some Reavers to get a charge with the Dragonlord and Dragonblades, my Blades of Khorne sacrifice Reavers and Blood Warriors to charge in Chaos Knights, my Everchosen sacrifice Marauders to charge with the Varanguard and Archaon, and my Stormcast never really sacrifice anything and just stomp anything foolish enough to charge them. 

So, very defensively is how I plan for the double turn. Expect not to get it and sometimes you will be pleasantly surprised !

[Olincay]

8 hours ago, Carnelian said:

I just always assume I will get the double turn and when I don't, I scream

This, I empathise completely haha. 

[Rhellion]

I play is if I am going to get it to take advantage. I try to have an "out" to recover if I don't get it, but not at the expense of not taking advantage of I do get it. Usually others play conservatively so I can do this. I feel like this has won me more games than it has lost me by a large amount.

[Olincay]

3 hours ago, Rhellion said:

I play is if I am going to get it to take advantage. I try to have an "out" to recover if I don't get it, but not at the expense of not taking advantage of I do get it. Usually others play conservatively so I can do this. I feel like this has won me more games than it has lost me by a large amount.

It seems people approaching the double turn conservatively is the most popular. 

Personally, I tend to deploy quite tighlty in a bubble and if get to choose I will AlWAYS go second, moving out my chaff in a layered wall to take full advantage of  priority if I win it but having the defence if i don't. I'll always try and keep my second line of troops within pile in distance of the front  so I can have two rounds of combat *when needed* if im on the receiving end of the double turn. 

I'm sure these are all common practices by now.

[Twitch of Izalith]

If I get the chance of a double I sometimes just give the turn to my opponent so they don't get the the chance of a double in the next battleround. Obviously it depends if I can get a big advantage from taking it or not but if the advantage is marginal I often just give it away so the option stays with me for when it might be more useful.

I mostly play combat focused armies so it usually has less impact after round 2 anyway.

[syph0n]

So I hear about double turns, but having only played about 3 open games back in 2015 this is a new thing for me. Playing a proper 1k game soon with my Order Serpentis/Anvilgard army... I always assumed double turns came via a command ability or allegiance bonus or something. Would this be something I can do? Equally, my mate's army is Slaves to Darkness - are they capable? I don't want either of us to miss something like this.

[Richelieu]

50 minutes ago, syph0n said:

So I hear about double turns, but having only played about 3 open games back in 2015 this is a new thing for me. Playing a proper 1k game soon with my Order Serpentis/Anvilgard army... I always assumed double turns came via a command ability or allegiance bonus or something. Would this be something I can do? Equally, my mate's army is Slaves to Darkness - are they capable? I don't want either of us to miss something like this.

Double turns arise from the way in which turn order within a battle round is determined.  At the beginning of each battle round both players roll a d6.  The higher roll gets to choose who goes first in that battle round.  So, if you go second in one battle round and then go first in the next battle round, you have taken two turns in a row.

[syph0n]

That's in the core rules?? How have I missed that! 

That's a pretty interesting mechanic then, I was used to taking turns in order and that was that! 

[Richelieu]

3 minutes ago, syph0n said:

That's in the core rules?? How have I missed that! 

That's a pretty interesting mechanic then, I was used to taking turns in order and that was that! 

It is very divisive within the community.  I absolutely love it.  I think it presents both tactical challenges and exciting last ditch ways to try to win a game when you're down.  Many others think the opposite and will write long diatribes excoriating it or come up with overly complex alternatives (just search the forums and you'll find many such threads). 

I don't have a generalized approach to dealing with the double turn because i think it is so dependent upon the battle plan.

Battle for the Pass: if you are forced to go first, I believe it is absolutely critical to get 5 VPs in turn one and to tarpit as much of your opponent's forces away from the objectives as you can.  So in that scenario I just don't even factor in the double turn unless I am playing an army that is unable to quickly advance up the board, in which case I will try to get a single, sacrificial model/small unit in range of the objectives and leave everything else as far back as possible to prepare for a counter attack when my opponent moves onto the objectives.

Scorched Earth: If I am given first turn, I will calculate whether I can burn an opponent's objective.  If I can, then I go all in.  If not then I screen my objectives and move my forces into position toward the opponent's weak flank.

Total Conquest:  If I go first, then I just position my units at the best counterattack ranges for the opponent I am facing.  I will possibly take a single objective if it is grossly undefended, but the costs for not taking an objective in turn 1 are very low in Total Conquest, so I'm happy to play the position game.

Knife to the Heart:  Completely dependent upon opponent since this battle plan almost always comes down to kill points.

Starstrike:  Double turns in this battle plan are very punishing...but not in the first 3 turns.  Always try to gain control of who dictates turn order and then hold onto it since a turn 4-5 double turn in this scenario can win you the game even if you're substantially behind on points.

Duality of Death: I think this battle plan provides the most freedom for how you deal with the double turn.  If you've got lots of chaff and lots of heroes, simply getting onto both objectives right away and then surviving for a few turns can win you the game.  This strategy requires a pretty accurate assessment of how much damage your opponent can throw out though, so don't be risky with it.  Another thing you can do is get cheap heroes onto the objectives turn 1, and then when your opponent divides their force to take them both out you can wheel around and bring as many units as possible to bear against a single objective, establishing an overwhelming position.  I could write a whole thread about the different ways to approach going first in Duality.

 

[DantePQ]

@Richelieu made some great points 

I personally play it like I wouldn't get it and prepare to lose every initiative roll but also to put myself into good position if I get that double turn. Yesterday I played a game - I give my opponent first turn (that was a mistake BTW) and then I got double turn but because of lack of targets and any objectives to grab/pressure(Knife to the Heart) I gave it back which put my opponent in awkard spot. There are a lot of options and I like from tactical point of view but sometimes it's just brutal against certain armies but on the other hand yout got to prepare for this I've rarely relied on getting double turn only in case when losing that roll won't put me in very bad situation. 

But there are armies like for example Clown-Car and Changehost that are deisgned to table opponent (or try to table) with double 2nd turn.  But that's why I don't like rolling for turn every time - it favors certain armies greatly - Wh40k rule that you roll once is much better, with +1 to roll if you deployed first and possibility of opponent "stealing" it with a roll of 6 would really change a lot considering battalions and how game is played. 

[Skreech Verminking]

I usually don’t get the second turn (thanks to my skills of rolling 1)?

The second turn can sometimes really be a pain. But I don’t really need it anyways since I usually play skaven with at least 301 Modells?, or my Blades of Khorne army  with the murderhost formation, with which I normally just charge with my whole army in the first turn (they mostly die horrible after this but who cares Blood for the Bloodgod!?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Richelieu said:

It is very divisive within the community.  I absolutely love it.  I think it presents both tactical challenges and exciting last ditch ways to try to win a game when you're down.  Many others think the opposite and will write long diatribes excoriating it or come up with overly complex alternatives (just search the forums and you'll find many such threads). 

I don't have a generalized approach to dealing with the double turn because i think it is so dependent upon the battle plan.

Battle for the Pass: if you are forced to go first, I believe it is absolutely critical to get 5 VPs in turn one and to tarpit as much of your opponent's forces away from the objectives as you can.  So in that scenario I just don't even factor in the double turn unless I am playing an army that is unable to quickly advance up the board, in which case I will try to get a single, sacrificial model/small unit in range of the objectives and leave everything else as far back as possible to prepare for a counter attack when my opponent moves onto the objectives.

Scorched Earth: If I am given first turn, I will calculate whether I can burn an opponent's objective.  If I can, then I go all in.  If not then I screen my objectives and move my forces into position toward the opponent's weak flank.

Total Conquest:  If I go first, then I just position my units at the best counterattack ranges for the opponent I am facing.  I will possibly take a single objective if it is grossly undefended, but the costs for not taking an objective in turn 1 are very low in Total Conquest, so I'm happy to play the position game.

Knife to the Heart:  Completely dependent upon opponent since this battle plan almost always comes down to kill points.

Starstrike:  Double turns in this battle plan are very punishing...but not in the first 3 turns.  Always try to gain control of who dictates turn order and then hold onto it since a turn 4-5 double turn in this scenario can win you the game even if you're substantially behind on points.

Duality of Death: I think this battle plan provides the most freedom for how you deal with the double turn.  If you've got lots of chaff and lots of heroes, simply getting onto both objectives right away and then surviving for a few turns can win you the game.  This strategy requires a pretty accurate assessment of how much damage your opponent can throw out though, so don't be risky with it.  Another thing you can do is get cheap heroes onto the objectives turn 1, and then when your opponent divides their force to take them both out you can wheel around and bring as many units as possible to bear against a single objective, establishing an overwhelming position.  I could write a whole thread about the different ways to approach going first in Duality.

 

Yes exactly, 

One of many reasons I started playing my skaven as a Horde army with at least 300 Modells in 2000points

 

All Objectives are mine-Mine??

 

[Mikeymajq]

Keeping threat ranges in mind when moving, if the opponent is mainly melee there's no point in pushing up too much because it'll just make it super easy  for them to charge (and as I always always always fail the initiative roll off I am painfully aware of this). It's harder against deep striking units but chaff and denying ground to deep strike onto is key. If you can leave only the front as a viable location and no juicy targets to charge it'll hamper many such units a lot. 

[Kramer]

I play a double line minimum and always play on a table with minimally one piece of (LoS blocking) terrain per square. 

The double line offers me several options. counter charging, chaff units taking charges, board control, etc. 

But most importantly it gives me the ability to over extent and react. So with my Dark Elves I used (for example) my dark riders to run past the objective and block of spearmen behind it. Even if that's the top of the turn. He would have to charge my dark riders or shuffle around. And even then if he gets the double turn he would rarely punch through my spearmen. Allowing me the counter charge. Now if I get the turn I can either push my back up line, usually executioners, past my block of spearmen to get at his second line of countercharge. 

Of course there are a hundred different elements that impact those choices. but that's my general tactic regarding the double turn. 

[Antipodean7]

I wrote my thoughts on priority roll and preparing for the double turn (pre-GHB17) here: https://aosshorts.com/priority-roll-plan-use-win/

A lot of it is still valid, and hopefully useful.

[Burf]

If my opponent is on the double, I deploy and move conservatively and then force them to take the double if I can.

If I'm on the double I'll either keep it if I'm not in position to take advantage, or go for broke and pray for the win.