Universal Spell Lores?

[NemoVonUtopia]

With the Legions of Nagash and Daughters of Khain books having the lore of death and lore of shadow, I got to thinking if it would be a good idea to have the old spell lores open to multiple factions like in old warhammer. 

In my opinion the benefit of doing so would be to give armies like free company, high elves, brayherd, ect some extra options while they wait for a battletome. On the other hand, it could lead to unexpected interactions with factions that are full fleshed out and limit the power of the new spells because they would have to work with a wider range of factions.

Since I don't have either of the new books, I don't know if the new spell lores are so specific to their factions that they would be useless to anyone else. 

Do y'all think that open access to some spell Lores would create more diversity or end up being impossible to balance.

[S133arcanite]

Like a lore for each realm?

 

 

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[bsharitt]

33 minutes ago, S133arcanite said:

Like a lore for each realm?

 

 

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That'd be an interesting add in the GHB2018.

[NemoVonUtopia]

1 hour ago, S133arcanite said:

Like a lore for each realm?

 

 

...

Essentially, because the realms are based off of the winds of magic allowing certain wizards access to the lore of shadow in the Daughters of Kain book. Or have a set of generic lores that multiple factions can use.

I just seems odd to me that as of now only the daughters of Khain can use the lore of shadow when the empire and chaos could in warhammer fantasy.

[kenshin620]

Well I think one reason why the original lores were absent is due to one of the many "streamlines" for AoS. Perhaps either the 2018 GHB could change this or some sort of Magic Expansion.

[Menkeroth]

Actually, no, please. No old ways and certainly no old 300+ books, of which more than 100 were just rules.

[chord]

5 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

Actually, no, please. No old ways and certainly no old 300+ books, of which more than 100 were just rules.

Agreed, let's not go backwards

[Richelieu]

I was going to write a long post, but I'll just refer back to what @Menkeroth and @chord wrote.  I choose armies because they are unique and a menu of options that everyone has equal access to is antithetical to that.  

[someone2040]

I think I'd just prefer if in the next GHB they give spell lores to all the allegiances that can take them.

I was kinda disappointed that Darkling Covens and Seraphon didn't already get that, considering magic is a big part of their factions (or at least, key elements within their factions).

In fact, it's something I've been working on in my spare time, just need to pretty it up.

[Burf]

Absolutely not. Universal spell lores are terrible for the same reason MP's universal strategems are terrible, dramatically different values for the same ability across different armies. 

Any spell you might cast will have wildly oscillating value army to army. Look at MP's -6" to shooting strategem for an example of this. Against Tzeentch, it's irrelevant whereas against stormcasts it's crippling for the majority of their shooting units. Then look at armies that benefit from it defensively, DoK and LoN go nuts whereas Free people don't gain much at all.

[Thenarius]

I would certainly see a benefit to this, but more along the lines of strictly letting certain factions take each lore, so as to give all the factions a spell lore to choose from.  currently a spellcaster from a non-faction book is way less useful than one from said book (eg dark elf sorceress vs bloodwrack medusei)

[Richelieu]

3 hours ago, someone2040 said:

I think I'd just prefer if in the next GHB they give spell lores to all the allegiances that can take them.

I was kinda disappointed that Darkling Covens and Seraphon didn't already get that, considering magic is a big part of their factions (or at least, key elements within their factions).

In fact, it's something I've been working on in my spare time, just need to pretty it up.

Seraphon would need a massive rebalancing if they had a spell lore.  They have 5 unique wizards including a non-named wizard that can cast 3 spells per turn and add 1 to casting rolls for the whole army.  You're talking about the magical power of legions of Nagash and Tzeentch but with a way bigger toolkit.

[Tiger]

I'm using generic order army most of the time and the few times I use SCE I'm rather happy going full allegiance with them to get access to prayers and new artifacts.  For generic order allegiance, I'd definitely would like to be able to pick another spell or two that's not tied to the realm that we're fighting in.

I've been enjoying MP exactly because it gives me something new to play with.

[BaldoBeardo]

'Universal' is a bad idea because as stated previously spells would have massively different value across factions.

Having the lores 'locked' so only specific factions can use them... sounds remarkably like what's already happening?

 

[Jamopower]

It would definitely be a nice narrative/open play addition, bit like the Malign portents abilities and could be easily incorporated in the next GHB as it will probably have less matched play content as I don't believe they are going to include as many allegiances there this time, due to most bigger factions already having them.

[Redmanphill]

We already have one third of a universal spell lore in Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield. I think four more generic spells would be good if the writers can balance them. I’d consider at least two more direct damage spells that are harder to cast than arcane bolt but do a slight bit more damage. I’d consider a -1 to save rolls as a direct counter to mystic shield and number six would have to be very generic.

1. Arcane Bolt
2. Mystic Shield
3. Accursed Bolt: 8+ To cast, 18” inflicts d6 mortal wounds
4. Deathly Hex: 8+ To cast, 18” inflicts a -1 to save on unit until next Hero Phase
5. Witchfire Blast: 10+ To cast, 12” range, inflicts 2d6 normal wounds on unit.
6. Eldritch Vortex: 7+ To cast, select a point within 12” of the caster, no enemy may deploy from off the board or teleport within 9” of this point. Lasts until the next Hero Phase

As a counter to this I’d only allow a wizard to know one spell from the list and it would be chosen before the battle as per a standard battletome lore.

[Menkeroth]

If we are going down this route then why not introduce the Universal Special Rules? Like back in the day, you know. 

[Redmanphill]

5 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

If we are going down this route then why not introduce the Universal Special Rules? Like back in the day, you know. 

It’s nothing new, we have universal spells already.

[Moonlightwolf]

13 hours ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

Essentially, because the realms are based off of the winds of magic allowing certain wizards access to the lore of shadow in the Daughters of Kain book. Or have a set of generic lores that multiple factions can use.

I just seems odd to me that as of now only the daughters of Khain can use the lore of shadow when the empire and chaos could in warhammer fantasy.

Especially as Grey Battlemages are supposed to be specialists in in shadow magic, and amethyst battlemages are supposed to be specialists in in death magic

[BaldoBeardo]

So it's not that there's a valid issue then, it's that née empire players miss having a tweakable toolbox wizard and/or have arcane FOMO?

[Killax]

I'd like it as campaign content. Malign Portents as the current example, I'd love it if we'd had 6 Spell options and 6 Prayer options specifically for that Realm.

Do I think it needs to be added to a format of the game as a whole? No, not so much. It doesn't really make sence that way for me. However it does make sence to me that if you are within a specific Realm you obtain acces to certain magical powers.

[Trayanee]

Its a great idea. I would love it for all the abandoned factions to have such an alternative. Certainly not as a campaign stuff, but as a here to stay feature.

[BaldoBeardo]

55 minutes ago, Trayanee said:

Its a great idea. I would love it for all the abandoned factions to have such an alternative. Certainly not as a campaign stuff, but as a here to stay feature.

Highlight for truth.

[AGPO]

It's one of those things that would be very cool for narrative but not for matched play, where I agree the variables are too great to balance it effectively. It would make a very good addition to Times of War for specific realms.

[Lucio]

I think a 3 spell option would work, tied into the realm rules. If you assume a direct damage spell, a protective/healing spell and a realm feature spell.

Replace Arcane bolt with the damage spell, Mystic shield with the protective spell and add the realm one to all wizards.

You might get a small AoE fire burst doing d3 mortal wounds to each unit within 6" of the caster, a fire shield which means you always save on a 6 and inflict a mortal wound if you roll 6 to save and a spell which lets you turn a piece of terrain into Dangerous, so it inflicts wounds on a unit if they roll a 1 during hero phase