Magma Dragon

[PlasticCraic]

This is the blackened fire one I like the look of...I should point out that mine will look nowhere near as good! 

But it does say "Magma" to me at least:

https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/194288171404442906

 

[PlasticCraic]

So I had the pleasure of getting the big girl on the table for the first time two nights ago...WOW!

There are a LOT of D6 damage rolls with this lovely lady, and I aced all of them!

When this girl is hot, she's really, really hot.

I played a Khorne list with my Mixed Destruction at 1500 points (Total Conquest), and it was one of those where everything went my way.  It was beers 'n' pretzels stuff but a whole heap of fun.

What really struck both me and my opponent was how slowly this girl degrades.  Moving 16" base is amazing, and you have to put 9 wounds on her before she loses her rend -3...she has to be on death's door before she loses her rend -2.

Ask me again when I've rolled a heap of 1s and 2s on the damage rolls (and whiffed her dragon breath), but I had a ball using her.

Who knows what 2nd ed means for her...I was originally hoping they'd remove the "Realm of Fire" stipulation and just give her one of the two as a normal rule (mainly to save having to explain that yes we are playing in a Realm so let's roll off for it), but now that Realms look like becoming more of a thing I doubt that.  We were joking that the wayt things are going, she's more likely to get renamed to a Celestial Dragon and given the Stormcast keyword...

Edited June 1, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[amysrevenge]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:12 AM, BunkhouseBuster said:

I have yet to run one, but I would try to run a full-on monster mash list if I did.  There's just something about dragons that are really cool, and I feel that is one area where they can really expand in AoS - more dragons!

And speaking of cheaper alternatives, here is one that I have:  Reaper Miniatures Marthrangul

https://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones/price/77542

It's also a lot cheaper than a Maw-krusha, and is an appropriate size for comparison.  I have seen some folks bend the wings down with hot water with the intent of running them as Magma Dragons for AoS.  That's on my plan of projects in the future.

I've got Marthrangul painted up as an Order (booooo) Carmine Dragon.  It was ever so briefly 380 points during that tiny window where FW updated their points without letting the main rules team know, and I happened to have an event that day, so I used it before it went back up to 460 or 440 or whatever it initially was and quickly reverted back to LOL

If anyone wants to try it for a Magma Dragon, it is one of the better Bones kits.  I'm very happy with it.

[Shearl]

I'm seriously considering picking one up to accompany my Fimir, I'm tempted by the basilisk too.

[PlasticCraic]

Nice to see a couple of Magma Dragons at the 6 Nations!  Hope that army does really well.

With the points tweaks, my own Magma Dragon list can now fit in Chrono Cogs...not sure there is much else in the Realm stuff I'd change, what are everyone's thoughts?  Any artefacts you'd take over Hammerblade in this list?

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
- Trait: Ravager
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Artefact: Hammerblade

Battleline
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Bows & Slashas
10 x Orruks (80)
- Choppas & Shields
10 x Orruks (80)
- Choppas & Shields

Behemoths
Magma Dragon (540)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 143

 

[Sahneyoghurt]

I have heard about a very competitive list with a Dragon a maw krusha and a bonesplitter gargant. Two of the models have rules (with artefact) that let them always strike first sorta. Magma Dragon can soften targets for maw krusha to double charge. It's really awesome!

[PlasticCraic]

@Sahneyoghurt I think that sounds like my list bud, I did a full write up over on The Honest Wargamer which you might be interested in:

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/triple-bang-the-monster-mash-they-never-saw-coming/

Unfortunately the list has taken a bit of a kicking with the changes to the Fungoid Cave Shaman (as well as Doppelganger Cloak).  My list used his old tech extensively, and it will miss his Command Ability in particular. 

I'm currently reworking the list for SAGT in Adeliade in a few weeks' time...if you or anyone else reading the thread has any suggestions on where to go with it, list submission is due at the end of this week and I'm open to suggestions!

[DestructionFranz]

I've tried yesterday my brand new Magma Dragon on a 2000 Destruction list.

Unfortunately The Magma died turn one. 😞 He doesn't have any resistance against magic and mortal wounds. And with 4+ save is very easy to kill.

I think at the moment the Frostlord on Stonehorne is by far better in a Destruction list, is faster, and harder to kill. He needs a very strong points reduction to be used is a competitive list. Like 30% less...

What do you think guys? Do you use this wonderful ForgeWorld model?

[FPC]

2 hours ago, DestructionFranz said:

I've tried yesterday my brand new Magma Dragon on a 2000 Destruction list.

Unfortunately The Magma died turn one. 😞 He doesn't have any resistance against magic and mortal wounds. And with 4+ save is very easy to kill.

I think at the moment the Frostlord on Stonehorne is by far better in a Destruction list, is faster, and harder to kill. He needs a very strong points reduction to be used is a competitive list. Like 30% less...

What do you think guys? Do you use this wonderful ForgeWorld model?

Wow, was it top or bottom of turn 1? Putting out 20 wounds at range seems pretty impressive.  What were you facing?

[DestructionFranz]

2 minutes ago, FPC said:

Wow, was it top or bottom of turn 1? Putting out 20 wounds at range seems pretty impressive.  What were you facing?

I was playing against Tzeentch.

During my first turn I flew behind enemy lines to kill his general. I killed him, but on his first turn he made 13 mortal wounds with spells, other 7 with ranged weapons.

[FPC]

Wow 13 MW is a solid number even from Tzeentch. And so is doing 7 with ranged. It sounds like maybe they rolled above average. Also sounds like they put their entire army into him, so that probably means the rest of your army was safe?

[DestructionFranz]

Just now, FPC said:

Wow 13 MW is a solid number even from Tzeentch. And so is doing 7 with ranged. It sounds like maybe they rolled above average. Also sounds like they put their entire army into him, so that probably means the rest of your army was safe?

Yes, the rest of my army was safe, he focused on the first turn just on Magma  Dragon. 

Unfortunately against Tzeentch magic is almost useless. You cannot cast anything without being unbinded and the spells are very important.

I tried to use the Fungoid with Mork's Mushroom, the Grot Shaman and the Troggoth Hag but I could cast just one mistic shield in all the game.

[FPC]

Ah yea. Their quite potent at magic. Just still seems like a lot to get 13 MW. 

[DestructionFranz]

13 minutes ago, FPC said:

Ah yea. Their quite potent at magic. Just still seems like a lot to get 13 MW. 

He was lucky with rolls... but the Magma Dragon needs some protection against mortal wounds. His cost of 540 points deserves it....

[PlasticCraic]

It's a shame he doesn't have the Hero keyword in the same way that Greater Daemons do, so he could take Ignax Scales for example.  I guess there's a sliding scale of what constitutes a Hero: it goes without saying that you don't need to be Human, but humanoid probably helps (e.g. even Verminlords stand upright and have arms and legs rather than just legs).  I really think the Bonegrinder in particular should get the Hero keyword, but that's another matter!

His "damage protection" comes from the splash back mortal wounds, so (almost) anything that hits him just dies straight back.  And a lot of units won't even be willing to engage with him because of that.  There are exceptions, which are mostly outliers in the game themselves and do not have points costs that reflect their Mary Sue rules design (e.g. Hearthguard).  But it is those things that need adjusting I think.

Honestly I don't think he needs a significant points drop, he's a really powerful piece.  He has a huge number of very good matchups: you were just a little unlucky that  you came up against one of the few bad ones.  And if you'd popped their General (presumably an LOC) that should have had a big impact on his output, so again it sounds like even within a bad matchup, you were a little unlucky.

Overall I think he's in a good spot.  

Or looking at it another way: for every game where Tzeentch zaps him off the board, I've had 3 games where he rampages up a flank, blasts 2D6 mortal wounds into a hammer unit, one shots a bunch of dikkheads standing on an objective and winds up holding it one to nothing.  Then your opponent throws their best unit into him, he takes about 16 wounds and they die for free in return, and then he swats whatever else charged him with his own attacks.  At that point you have about 100 Grots standing on Objectives, their best units have been devastated, and when the Magma Dragon one shots their support Hero with his breath attack they concede at the top of Turn 2.

See? Easy 

[DestructionFranz]

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

It's a shame he doesn't have the Hero keyword in the same way that Greater Daemons do, so he could take Ignax Scales for example.  I guess there's a sliding scale of what constitutes a Hero: it goes without saying that you don't need to be Human, but humanoid probably helps (e.g. even Verminlords stand upright and have arms and legs rather than just legs).  I really think the Bonegrinder in particular should get the Hero keyword, but that's another matter!

His "damage protection" comes from the splash back mortal wounds, so (almost) anything that hits him just dies straight back.  And a lot of units won't even be willing to engage with him because of that.  There are exceptions, which are mostly outliers in the game themselves and do not have points costs that reflect their Mary Sue rules design (e.g. Hearthguard).  But it is those things that need adjusting I think.

Honestly I don't think he needs a significant points drop, he's a really powerful piece.  He has a huge number of very good matchups: you were just a little unlucky that  you came up against one of the few bad ones.  And if you'd popped their General (presumably an LOC) that should have had a big impact on his output, so again it sounds like even within a bad matchup, you were a little unlucky.

Overall I think he's in a good spot.  

Or looking at it another way: for every game where Tzeentch zaps him off the board, I've had 3 games where he rampages up a flank, blasts 2D6 mortal wounds into a hammer unit, one shots a bunch of dikkheads standing on an objective and winds up holding it one to nothing.  Then your opponent throws their best unit into him, he takes about 16 wounds and they die for free in return, and then he swats whatever else charged him with his own attacks.  At that point you have about 100 Grots standing on Objectives, their best units have been devastated, and when the Magma Dragon one shots their support Hero with his breath attack they concede at the top of Turn 2.

See? Easy 

Maybe I played too offensively, flying behind is lines I exposed the Magma a very high risk but I was curious to test is abilities. 

I agree with you about the 'Hero' word, can be useful to keep our 540 points safer. 🙂

It would be very interesting if the Forgeworld creates, a Destruction Monsters army, with their Allegiance Abilities, with their Artefacts and, why not their Endless Spells. Like Legion of Azghor. They will make much more interesting playing their incredibly beautiful models. 

[Overread]

From reading what you did I think you indeed played too offensively and gambled the dragon away. You moved it behind enemy lines right at the start of the game when a player hadn't moved and had most of their army within easy striking distance of the model. Putting a big chunk of your army in points and power right into the maw of the beast like that is just too tempting for an opponent and most will pile on and kill it. Esp as its only their first turn in the game so they are not as worried about having to rush forward to capture objectives or secure locations; they are free to "waste" that turn going nowhere to take out a big cornerstone of your army.

You did get his general so that was a major win for you, but in the gamble he got your dragon too. It wasn't so much offensive issues as it was loan offensive. If you'd had other units to move in along with it at the same time to offer a screen, multiple targets and locking other units in combat etc.... then I think it would have been fine. However you left the dragon all out on its own, a juicy choice target that would have likely killed off most characters and models if left in the same position. Only a few - like Morathi with here limit on damage taken per turn - might have survived such a wildcard move. 

[DestructionFranz]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

From reading what you did I think you indeed played too offensively and gambled the dragon away. You moved it behind enemy lines right at the start of the game when a player hadn't moved and had most of their army within easy striking distance of the model. Putting a big chunk of your army in points and power right into the maw of the beast like that is just too tempting for an opponent and most will pile on and kill it. Esp as its only their first turn in the game so they are not as worried about having to rush forward to capture objectives or secure locations; they are free to "waste" that turn going nowhere to take out a big cornerstone of your army.

You did get his general so that was a major win for you, but in the gamble he got your dragon too. It wasn't so much offensive issues as it was loan offensive. If you'd had other units to move in along with it at the same time to offer a screen, multiple targets and locking other units in combat etc.... then I think it would have been fine. However you left the dragon all out on its own, a juicy choice target that would have likely killed off most characters and models if left in the same position. Only a few - like Morathi with here limit on damage taken per turn - might have survived such a wildcard move. 

Actually you're right, I didn't play well that turn, because I was too enthusiast to try his power. 🙂  However I think that at the moment with ranged weapons and magic is to easy to kill for his value.

So I will let the Magma on bench for my next tournament on May putting on my list one more Frostlord on Stonerhon and a Mork's Mighty Mushroom (and still having 40 points to invest).

 

[DestructionFranz]

So guys. 

Almost everything received a point reduction, apart from the beautiful Forgeworld model. 

What do you think would be the right cost of the Magma Dragon? (At the moment is 540!!! ) 

 

[PlasticCraic]

Have you been running yours @DestructionFranz? How's it going?

Yeah she doesn't feel like a 540 point model. Especially since the keywords limit her to Mixed only, which is (presumably intentionally) more and more marginalised. 

I dunno, 460 and give her the Hero keyword? 

What faction keyword(s) would you give her?

[DestructionFranz]

14 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Have you been running yours @DestructionFranz? How's it going?

Yeah she doesn't feel like a 540 point model. Especially since the keywords limit her to Mixed only, which is (presumably intentionally) more and more marginalised. 

I dunno, 460 and give her the Hero keyword? 

What faction keyword(s) would you give her?

Yep, sometime I run mine, but running it just in Mixed Destruction at the moment is very frustrating. Especially for 540 points. 

It would be very exciting having an entire FW Monster Battletome, but maybe I'm asking too much.

Due the fact that now a MawKrusha costs 460, I think that 400/420 could be the right price. Or 440/450 with Hero Keyword. 

 

[Overread]

I've only one warning - FW has been removing a good few models from AoS as of late - if you want a magmadragon and can afford a magma dragon I'd GET A MAGMA DRAGON. At the very least increased sales might save the mould when it comes up for renewal and it saves pains if they do remove it and you've "always wanted but never committed to getting one". 

[Intrinsic]

3 hours ago, Overread said:

I've only one warning - FW has been removing a good few models from AoS as of late - if you want a magmadragon and can afford a magma dragon I'd GET A MAGMA DRAGON. At the very least increased sales might save the mould when it comes up for renewal and it saves pains if they do remove it and you've "always wanted but never committed to getting one". 

I noticed the other day that Merwyrm, Dread Maw and the Magma Dragon are all labeled Last Chance to Buy now. Been waffling on the Magma Dragon and Merwyrm for years now, so I just went ahead and purchased them before I regret not owning them. 

[PlasticCraic]

9 hours ago, Intrinsic said:

I noticed the other day that Merwyrm, Dread Maw and the Magma Dragon are all labeled Last Chance to Buy now. Been waffling on the Magma Dragon and Merwyrm for years now, so I just went ahead and purchased them before I regret not owning them. 

Well there's $360 down the drain. Wonderful. 😥

[DestructionFranz]

19 hours ago, Overread said:

I've only one warning - FW has been removing a good few models from AoS as of late - if you want a magmadragon and can afford a magma dragon I'd GET A MAGMA DRAGON. At the very least increased sales might save the mould when it comes up for renewal and it saves pains if they do remove it and you've "always wanted but never committed to getting one". 

Actually I own two Magma Dragon, I would like just to play them...