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My stormcast rant : the good, the bad and the ugly, where they are now, and what should be done


ledha

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22 minutes ago, Tanka said:

Hi,

I want to begin by saying I am the guy who won the 104 player tournament with the 15 drop stormcast army... :)

I feel you make some great points too. Relictors and Castellants are incredibly efficient for their points cost (Relictors even more so, I ran 2 in my 15 drop list and both had lightning chariot)- this may be fixed in GHB2019 with prayers being a one attempt only like spells (like they are in the DOK book) Staunch Defender is also incredibly good and almost impossible to pass up.

I like the idea of staunch defender being a unit ability for libs only, I think pallys with a 3+ save (inbuilt) might be bit too good when you could easily lantern buff them and jump to a 2+ no issue.

Prosecutors can come down for sure.

Vanguard can come down.

I dont have any feelings about the battalions as I dont rate them... Im not saying they were not powerful (Vanguard wing was just downright ridiculous) they just dont suit either how i see stormcast as playing or how I like to play. However, stormcast are a bit like Ogors in that they are incredibly powerful even without the layered synergies other armies possess. This was a key concept behind my army construction. It wasn't like KBB where if you kill the secrator they really start struggling, or the Aether Khemist or the Tzaangor shaman etc etc. Stormcast can afford to lose a number of things in their army and remain incredibly tough (yeah skyfires are still awesome we know, but like in OPs original it is a stormcast focus here).

Perhaps I would like to see the different stormhosts be like the different skyports or temples (from DOK) where it is not a  battalion but it comes with some buffs and some restrictions in regards to the type of army you can select. I think that may add the extra flavour stormcast players may be looking for.

I agree with all that, and I somehow find it funny that Stormcasts are in dire need of a codex (like really they do) despite getting one every year since release. It seems like they are constantly the pilot for bad Ideas that get hammered out in later better books (i.e. Kharadron skyports versus stormhosts). It looks like really only a few simple tweaks here and there are needed instead of a major overhaul. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Tanka said:

Hi,

I want to begin by saying I am the guy who won the 104 player tournament with the 15 drop stormcast army... :)

I feel you make some great points too. Relictors and Castellants are incredibly efficient for their points cost (Relictors even more so, I ran 2 in my 15 drop list and both had lightning chariot)- this may be fixed in GHB2019 with prayers being a one attempt only like spells (like they are in the DOK book) Staunch Defender is also incredibly good and almost impossible to pass up.

I like the idea of staunch defender being a unit ability for libs only, I think pallys with a 3+ save (inbuilt) might be bit too good when you could easily lantern buff them and jump to a 2+ no issue.

Prosecutors can come down for sure.

Vanguard can come down.

I dont have any feelings about the battalions as I dont rate them... Im not saying they were not powerful (Vanguard wing was just downright ridiculous) they just dont suit either how i see stormcast as playing or how I like to play. However, stormcast are a bit like Ogors in that they are incredibly powerful even without the layered synergies other armies possess. This was a key concept behind my army construction. It wasn't like KBB where if you kill the secrator they really start struggling, or the Aether Khemist or the Tzaangor shaman etc etc. Stormcast can afford to lose a number of things in their army and remain incredibly tough (yeah skyfires are still awesome we know, but like in OPs original it is a stormcast focus here).

Perhaps I would like to see the different stormhosts be like the different skyports or temples (from DOK) where it is not a  battalion but it comes with some buffs and some restrictions in regards to the type of army you can select. I think that may add the extra flavour stormcast players may be looking for.

It's an honour to have a talented player like you reacting here !  I'm curious to know what you faced in the tournament.

Thanks for your advices, as well as for everyone here. There is some truly good reflexions here (how could i forget the dracoth battleline for playing a fulle xtremeis chamber like we all dream to do ? )

However, i would defend my idea of 3+ pally. We can anyway put them at 2+ today with ease, and it don't make them break the game 

Maybe i'll do one day a best-of of every proposition here

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Removal (or weakening) of Staunch defender is probably a good idea - if there is some compensation, as already suggested (lower point costs, better save on units like Paladins , a selection of other good command traits, …).

Apart from that, I’m mainly concerned (obsessed? :D) with the Vanguard, so let’s start with these:

Lord Aquilor: Command ability is great and the only reason to take him, so leave it as it is.

Melee: he (and at least all other 200+ points Stormcast Heroes) should get -2 rend on his main weapon (Starbound Blade). I mean c’mon, a measly mortal Freeguild general can get -2 rend!

Ride the Winds Aetheric: what’s the point of getting within 3”+ of anyone if you cannot charge? Make it more than 7” with the option to charge (similar to Astral Compass deployment).

Gryph-charger traits: these are definitely the worst of the mount traits! How about these:

-        - Re-roll charge distance

-        - Deal mortal wounds on to-hit roll of 5+

Neave Blacktalon: with the Ride the Winds Aetheric as suggested above, she’ll be Ok. And/or give her an Astral Compass. An option to take 1 to 3 units of Hunters in her Shadowhammer Battalion would also be nice.

Palladors: Ride the Winds Aetheric, see above. Also, they could get both the Javelin and the Shock axe (make it hit on 4+, like Hunters) – the Lord Aquilor can also wield two melee weapons, after all … Prime gets Javelin or Shock axe and Lunar Blade

Hunters: make them 120 points and give the Hunter-Prime -1 rend in melee (in addition to him having 3 Attacks).

Hurricane Raptors: make them 140 points

Longstrike Raptors: make them 160 points

Aetherwings: their main benefit is Aetherstrike Force. Outside of that, I would not take them. Make them 40 points, and increase Aetherstrike Force Battalion by 40 points to compensate.

Not strictly Vanguard, but close relatives:

 

Knight Azyros: what a stinker :(. I’d only use him in an Aetherstrike force, and only because I have to. I’d love to see him fill out his role as the leader of the Prosecutors. Give him their 3d6 charge range and a better sword (3A/3+/3+/-1/2). “The Light of Sigmar”: replace text with: “During the shooting phase, select an enemy unit within 10”. On a 4+, this unit is dealt D3 mortal wounds. Units of Chaos are dealt D6 mortal wounds instead.” Alternatively, make him a flying Priest and change “Illuminator of the Lost” to a 3+ (or 4+) prayer, something like “Select friendly unit (or maybe select Prosecutor unit?) within 6”. Add 1 to their to-hit rolls in the shooting phase.” Or – as suggested above, make him give +1 on Scions roll and place units within 5” of him. Depending on how good he becomes, make him 100 or 120 points…

Hammer-Prosecutors: change cost to 80 points, give Grandaxe 2” range (like Decimator Thunderaxe)

Javelin-Prosecutors: change cost (back) to 80 points

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1 hour ago, ledha said:

It's an honour to have a talented player like you reacting here !  I'm curious to know what you faced in the tournament.

Thanks for your advices, as well as for everyone here. There is some truly good reflexions here (how could i forget the dracoth battleline for playing a fulle xtremeis chamber like we all dream to do ? )

However, i would defend my idea of 3+ pally. We can anyway put them at 2+ today with ease, and it don't make them break the game 

Maybe i'll do one day a best-of of every proposition here

hahahaha, the honour is all mine, its a great community to be a part of.

 

Game 1: Skink heavy seraphon in starstrike (close early game but I ran away with it late, he had no answer to the fulminators and tempestors.

Game 2: Khorne Bloodbound: running gore pilgrims and a 2+save re-rolling ones unit of reavers and heavily buffed (from the chaos soreceror) unit of 3 skull cannons) in scorched earth. He made some deployment errors which I capitalised on, his blood boil was not in range until turn 4...

Game 3: Stormcast with 4 concussors, stardrake and tempestors in battle for the pass once again he made a deployment error which I capitalised on and had his home objective for the first 3 turns as I tied up his heavy hitters with -1 to hit debuffs and high armour.

Game 4: mortal wound heavy fyreslayers in total conquest: I was able to keep out his two tunneling units from coming up near anything cos I have 15 drops and was able to pick apart his army one unit at a time.

Game 5: against Aetherstrike Force in duality of death: very one sided, called at the top of turn 3 when he had 1 hero left, some bad rolls, and a bad scenario for him.

 

I managed to somehow avoid Tzeentch lists, which are a tough match up (they always are) but I usually do well against them because Tempestors can smash through horrors with ease and mitigate damage from skyfires with -1 to hit debuffs. The magic is the issue. I also avoided the 90 vulkite berserker list which would be tough.

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I like most of the ideas presented here, and would like to add some more:

Knight-Azyros I'd like it if, in addition to The light of Sigmar it could use it's lantern once per turn as a 10-12" Deal 1 mortal wound, and give the affected unit -1 to hit until next your next hero phase (or D3, and boost Light of Sigmar to D6 and Chaos D6+1or2). Basically gives it a use, as personally, I find the once per game mortal wounds to be lackluster, and I'd never take a Azyros over a Venator, especially if I already had a Castellant.

Lord-Veritant Might be cool if it had a 12" 6+ ignore mortal wound aura (non-stackable or affected by any buffs). Kind of fluffly as they apparently terrify wizards and daemons.

Knight-Questor Need something, anything to be useful compared to any of the other heroes stormcast have access to.

Lord-Castellant Warding lantern to do 1 mortal wound to a enemy unit, and D3 to Chaos/Chaos Daemon. It's already hard to justify using the damaging lantern instead of the healing one, compounded by the fact it only affects Chaos units makes it extremely situational, and only really 'useful' if there is a chaos hero with 1 wound left (even then the +1 save still might be better).

Lord-Aquilor If its the General, allow units moving with the Winds Aetheric to charge. Not too powerful, as you are forced to give up 'better' command abilities to have this one buff, and a 9" charge is still pretty hard to pull off, plus Palladors aren't amazing on their own.

Vanguard-Palladors Allow them to retreat and shoot in the same turn.

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Greetings from Russia guys!
Lots of great ideas here, I'll agree that staunch defenders should go or be nerfed and I really like the idea of giving it to liberators and paladins, also agree that battle trait is weak and needs some tweaking and we need another one as well, totally something must be done with poor bravery of SCE, so thay is my thaught: another battletrait that will give all heroes an unstackable bravery aura, 6" bubble that will give friendly SCE units +1 bravery from KNIGHT models or share bravery of LORD models and mb increase that bubble to 12" for general.
Being a huge fan of strike chambers I absolutely love Prosecutors and Paladins, also almost never used Vanguard and Extermis chambers.
Now about those units:
 

Liberators: they are quite balanced for their cost, but, as was mentioned, not as good as some of their counterparts, but giving them staunch defenders ability will totaly make them worth their points

Judicators: they are good ranged unit, but feels like crossbows are much weaker than bows, I'd like to see them being 3+3+ - d1 and special hitting lone targets on 1-3 and 1-4 for monsters

Paladins: must have 3+ or a lower price, for me only Retributors worth their point (may be because sometimes i roll insane amount of 6's) So i think smtg like 180 for deci and protectors and 200 for retributors, all with 3+ or staunch defenders

Prosecutors: everything that was said previously, lower the cost, make them battleline

Don't have time to talk about heroes and everything else right now 

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those 2+ rerollable saves of the biggest stormcast heroes are not fun to play against with an army without high rend or mortal wound output! You are kinda forced to bring MW dealing units or you can simply skip the game.

The lack of wizards isnt a problem for the stormcast at all. With the Heraldor you got a even better option. His ability is far stronger then the Arcane Bolt and getting +1 to saves is super easy too.

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There are some decent suggestions here and somethings I can agree with here such as Palladors etc. needing to charge, plus something done about Vanguard Hunters. I think the game is moving in a great direction and only small tweaks should be needed here and there.

The other suggestions all point toward SCE weaknesses and want them to have none at all. We've seen;

Staunch put on Libs (basically so you can keep the trait and take another one)

Ignore Rend

MW Save

Higher Bravery

Deal MW on hit of 5??

Paladin to base 3 up (as someone mentioned above they can easily be made 2 up to which the retort was you can do that now. The difference there is that you currently need to apply +2 to get 2up now, if you make them naturally 3 you only need the +1 thats a big boost, too much imo.)

With the versitatily of SCE, having good ranged, dracoth, good range heroes, big drake you do realise many of those suggestions above would make them extremely powerful when SCE already perform quite well. All factions should have weaknesses Khorne for example has terrible ranged options and low wound lynchpin heroes for nearly all its lists. The ones that don't have weakness is probably down to how stupid destiny dice is.

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Yeah, I have to say, as a (primarily) Khorne player, this thread has been a wild ride. I agree with many suggestions aimed at diversifying beyond crutches, but there's some serious Christmas shopping going on too guys! 

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1 hour ago, Jaehaerys said:

Deal MW on hit of 5??

This is meant  as a Gryph-charger trait (only affects Lord Aquilor). The Gryph-charger already has "Deal MW on hit of 6+" (with 3A/3+/3+/-2/1).

Flat-out 3+ save on Paladins is propably too good. Maybe give them (and only them!) "ignore rend -1" or FnP 6++.

Alternatively, instead of making them more durable, make them more usable in general - that would mean to somehow overcome their 4" move . E.g., allow  to place them within 6"+ using Scions, or give them "can run and charge".

Prosectuors as Battleline? Maybe if they stay at 100 points, or only in a Tempest Lords stormhost ...

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33 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

guys the Stormcast are already the top winning army of LVO 2018.

https://aosshorts.com/las-vegas-open-top-10-age-sigmar-lists/

image.png.f5593e0f37e9ff519b5e27395b8ba8d5.png

i dont think they need even more movement or battleline units.

First, this list is pretty much as competetive as stormcasts can be and it has difficult match-ups

Second, the fact that we have the VV does not mean that we must play VV or lose against most powerfull rosters, in my opinion all armies should have at least 3-4 competetive rosters, other armies have problems too, but here we discuss SCE and the fact that other factions may need some changes does not mean that we should simply stand in a corner and observe

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2 hours ago, Kaleun said:

guys the Stormcast are already the top winning army of LVO 2018.

https://aosshorts.com/las-vegas-open-top-10-age-sigmar-lists/

image.png.f5593e0f37e9ff519b5e27395b8ba8d5.png

i dont think they need even more movement or battleline units.

As I said before, the good position of the stormcast were in huge part because of the vanguard wing which is a completely broken bataillon... Which was nerfed. ( And should have been much earlier). Take any tournament, remove all the vanguard wing list and you'll not see as many stormcast list

I'm playing at the blood tithe tournament this week end. There is 6 stormcast list : 3 vanguard wing and 3 skyborne slayers. It's nonsense. Meanwhile there is 12 tzeentch list and 10 legion of nagash list with lot of variance despite having three Time less references

And the fact that khorne have problems don't mean that stormcast Should keep their ****** aspect. Khorne need a lot of tweaking, as much as the stormcast actually ( buffing blood tithe, bloodthirsters, stopping the over reliance on bloodsecrators, etc...). And as i said before, too, it's about stormcast here, not the other races

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I don't agree with removing Staunch Defender.  It's a good ability and is fluffy.  How about changing it so units have to be fully within that range. To limit it's impact but still keeping it.

 

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2 minutes ago, chord said:

I don't agree with removing Staunch Defender.  It's a good ability and is fluffy.  How about changing it so units have to be fully within that range. To limit it's impact but still keeping it.

 

I like SD as well but it will be as good as gone, even with increased bubble, with giant 40mm bases it will mean that you'll have max of 3 5-model units in range

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1 hour ago, Kaleun said:

guys the Stormcast are already the top winning army of LVO 2018.

https://aosshorts.com/las-vegas-open-top-10-age-sigmar-lists/

image.png.f5593e0f37e9ff519b5e27395b8ba8d5.png

i dont think they need even more movement or battleline units.

I am glad somebody in here actually think this might be an over reaction. Is true other armies (tzeentch and nagash) are broken but imo i don t think this is enough to ask for a SCE buff across the board. Evry army should have their strenght and weakness and the fact SCE are (for example) not good against MW it does not mean they should get protection from it because MW are a problem for EVERY army in AoS. 

What should really be taken in consideration is to nerf down those couple of faction that are really heavy on MW alongside being really heavy on anything else.

I am sure SCE have good reasons to ask for a buff but same thing can be said for the 70% of the armies in this game. Fact is, imo, that is easier to nerf 30% rather than buff 70% of the armies.

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9 minutes ago, Frozenbeast said:

I am glad somebody in here actually think this might be an over reaction. Is true other armies (tzeentch and nagash) are broken but imo i don t think this is enough to ask for a SCE buff across the board. Evry army should have their strenght and weakness and the fact SCE are (for example) not good against MW it does not mean they should get protection from it because MW are a problem for EVERY army in AoS. 

What should really be taken in consideration is to nerf down those couple of faction that are really heavy on MW alongside being really heavy on anything else.

I am sure SCE have good reasons to ask for a buff but same thing can be said for the 70% of the armies in this game. Fact is, imo, that is easier to nerf 30% rather than buff 70% of the armies.

Some of the things people are asking for are wishlisting, sure, but a few are really needed to bring SCE in line with the rest.

The worst Allegiance ability in the game which never gets used? Check. We deserve something that is on equal footing with the other armies. Having a weak Allegiance is not tolerable as "diversity" or "flavour".

Having our "temple/skyport" diversity tied to brutally overpriced batallions when all the new armies get it for free? We deserve something better, or those Stormhost rules will be wasted paper that no one will use, ever.

Having an iconic unit which is never fielded outside Hammerstrike or Skyborne Slayers because it's too expensive, too slow and too vulnerable? That must change. Skullreapers have the same save and wounds (so much for the heaviest armor SC can get VS almost no armor), are faster (hey Paladin, you get nothing for wearing this huge armor but SLOWNESS) and are also able to deal MW. Cheaper!

The overpriced-ness of half of our last shiny release (Vanguard-Hunters, Vanguard-Palladors, Gryph-hounds...) is also one of the worst offenders.

MW vulnerability? Low bravery? Those are weaknesses we can deal with (even if some are extremely unfluffy). But not the previous points.

I was already anticipating SCE-hater backlash, legitimized by the blasted Vanguard Wing winning tournaments ??

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1 hour ago, XReN said:

I like SD as well but it will be as good as gone, even with increased bubble, with giant 40mm bases it will mean that you'll have max of 3 5-model units in range

is that a 35 or supposed to be 3-5?

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24 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Some of the things people are asking for are wishlisting, sure, but a few are really needed to bring SCE in line with the rest.

The worst Allegiance ability in the game which never gets used? Check. We deserve something that is on equal footing with the other armies. Having a weak Allegiance is not tolerable as "diversity" or "flavour".

Having our "temple/skyport" diversity tied to brutally overpriced batallions when all the new armies get it for free? We deserve something better, or those Stormhost rules will be wasted paper that no one will use, ever.

Having an iconic unit which is never fielded outside Hammerstrike or Skyborne Slayers because it's too expensive, too slow and too vulnerable? That must change. Skullreapers have the same save and wounds (so much for the heaviest armor SC can get VS almost no armor), are faster (hey Paladin, you get nothing for wearing this huge armor but SLOWNESS) and are also able to deal MW. Cheaper!

The overpriced-ness of half of our last shiny release (Vanguard-Hunters, Vanguard-Palladors, Gryph-hounds...) is also one of the worst offenders.

MW vulnerability? Low bravery? Those are weaknesses we can deal with (even if some are extremely unfluffy). But not the previous points.

I was already anticipating SCE-hater backlash, legitimized by the blasted Vanguard Wing winning tournaments ??

Agreed..and the hammer of sigmar being never seen is a sign that SCE need to be adjusted.     The haters should stop complaining about the stormcast, unless you run one of the broken battalions they are not doing well.

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25 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Some of the things people are asking for are wishlisting, sure, but a few are really needed to bring SCE in line with the rest.

The worst Allegiance ability in the game which never gets used? Check. We deserve something that is on equal footing with the other armies. Having a weak Allegiance is not tolerable as "diversity" or "flavour".

Having our "temple/skyport" diversity tied to brutally overpriced batallions when all the new armies get it for free? We deserve something better, or those Stormhost rules will be wasted paper that no one will use, ever.

Having an iconic unit which is never fielded outside Hammerstrike or Skyborne Slayers because it's too expensive, too slow and too vulnerable? That must change. Skullreapers have the same save and wounds (so much for the heaviest armor SC can get VS almost no armor), are faster (hey Paladin, you get nothing for wearing this huge armor but SLOWNESS) and are also able to deal MW. Cheaper!

The overpriced-ness of half of our last shiny release (Vanguard-Hunters, Vanguard-Palladors, Gryph-hounds...) is also one of the worst offenders.

MW vulnerability? Low bravery? Those are weaknesses we can deal with (even if some are extremely unfluffy). But not the previous points.

I was already anticipating SCE-hater backlash, legitimized by the blasted Vanguard Wing winning tournaments ??

I can actually agree with you on some points (especially the characterization of the army) but what I am trying to say is that a lot of ohter factions have same problems if not worst and the fatc SCE are always present in the first positions of tournament make me think that maybe they don t really need buffs, at least not imminently. If something, other more op factions need nerf.

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3 minutes ago, chord said:

Agreed..and the hammer of sigmar being never seen is a sign that SCE need to be adjusted.     The haters should stop complaining about the stormcast, unless you run one of the broken battalions they are not doing well.

Vthey are not doing well compared to who?^_^ Seraphon too have ONE broken battalion. Bonesplitters have ONE broken batalluon. Khorne has ONE broken batallio. And notice I am mentioning only army that have a new AoS battletome, because if you want we can start argueing about the ambiguity of the Wanderers allegiance. So where I agree they might need some characterization I disagree on buffs.

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7 minutes ago, Frozenbeast said:

Vthey are not doing well compared to who?^_^ Seraphon too have ONE broken battalion. Bonesplitters have ONE broken batalluon. Khorne has ONE broken batallio. And notice I am mentioning only army that have a new AoS battletome, because if you want we can start argueing about the ambiguity of the Wanderers allegiance. So where I agree they might need some characterization I disagree on buffs.

Ok you hate the stormcast,  fine...can you at least let us stormcast fans do some brainstorming without raining on our parade?  We don't go over to the Wanderers threads and poopoo over those ideas.

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Here is what i writed as the very beginning of my post: 

Notice that i KNOW that many armies (ironjaw, kharadron, flesh eater court) are in a worst state, but hey, i’m here too talk about Stormcast. Only stormcast, no allies, grand alliance or anything else. I don't want to see players of other armies coming to say " yeah, but nurgle/khorne/tzeentch/freeguild/moonclant don't have X and need Y..." The stormcast problems are not invalidated by the fact that other armies have problem, in the same way that other armies problem are not invalidated by the fact that stormcast have some "

So why are you coming here to do this ???

You wouldn't like to see stormcast players complaining about their overpriced vanguard units or the fact that they all play the same list while you are brainstorming of what could improved in your army, so please don't do this here. Every army have problem. It's not a excuse to let everything as it is and keeping things stale or doing our best Calimero impression

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