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My stormcast rant : the good, the bad and the ugly, where they are now, and what should be done


ledha

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First : I AM FRENCH AND I KNOW MY ENGLISH IS BAD, SORRY FOR GRAMMAR AND LANGUAGE MISTAKE

The stormcast eternals are right now one of the most popular army in the game, with a very good representation in tournament. However, i think we are in a situation of « the tree hide the forest », and the battletome is not in a really good nor fun state.

Notice that i KNOW that many armies (ironjaw, kharadron, flesh eater court) are in a worst state, but hey, i’m here too talk about Stormcast. Only stormcast, no allies, grand alliance or anything else. I don't want to see players of other armies coming to say " yeah, but nurgle/khorne/tzeentch/freeguild/moonaclan don't have X and need Y..." The stormcast problems are not invalidated by the fact that other armies have problem, in the same way that other armies problem are not invalidated by the fact that stormcast have some

It's not a crying post "boohoo, stormcast are too weak, please GW, buff them trough the roof :( " but a post about how could we change the battletome to make it more interesting an not gravitating around 5% of its option

Note too that ton of tournament and game happen everywhere, and i suppose that somewhere in the world, someone kick ass with hammer prosecutor. Most of my points are « general », but i think, valid. They are of course, at the end, my opinion, not « the only truth » that i force everyone to accept, but i think many people will agree with me.

The point is : how can we make the stormcast more balanced and interesting to play ? I thought about that and wanted to share my ideas about them.  And i would love to hear your advices

Prepare yourself, it will be long

 

What carried the stormcast in a very good tournament position lately was very obviously one extremely powerful, if not flat-out broken : the vanguard wing. Now that it is corrected, the stormcast don’t have many option to stay viable in a tournament.  Except the madman who won a tournament recently with a no-bataillion-14-drop-list, most of the well placed stormcast list are very similar and there is some option more powerful than the rest:

-        They are a vanguard wing, a hammerstrike force, a skyborne slayers, or an aetherstrike force. Two were nerfed (but are still powerful and used), and one is a very extreme list that can be hard-countered.

-        Most (if not all) of the armies use Staunch Defender, which is MUCH MORE powerful than the other command trait

-        Vanguard units are pretty much non existent, except in the aetherstrike force

-        Most of the list are hero-heavy, with the lord relictor and lord castellant being everywhere

-        At the item level, most, if not all players take mirroshield, lantern of the tempest and sigmarite armor. Sometime a luckstone on a venator.

So we have an army who turn around the same warscroll bataillion, command trait, units and item. The internal balance is quite poor

 

The good : things that are fine:

- The army is still the most versatile in the game, with ton of available playstale and orientation

- The heroes are all useful, powerful and unique. The biggest strenght of the army

- Very good mortal wound output. Stormcast can face pretty much everything and even in a hard match-up, can try to take a draw or minor victory

- Prayers are extremely good

- Staunch Defenders

 

The bad : things that need to be corrected in the stormcast army :

 

-        Vanguard units are too expensive for what they bring to the table, without exception

-        Prosecutor suffer the same problem.

-        Most of the units are actually quite average. Liberators, paladins, judicator, are outclassed by several entries (chaos warrior, bloodwarrior, blightking, arkanaut company, skyfires, etc) and none stand as a « holy hell, this ****** is good » choice

-        The army lack the complex and multiple layer of synergy most of the armies now have, with very direct and simple as well as limited buff (a +1 to hit in melee, reroll 1 to hit at range, etc). Very obvious in comparison to khorne/nurgle/tzeentch/death/fyreslayers who have ton of buff who cover everything.

-        The bulk of the army is quite slow, and entirely revolve around expensive bataillion and the relictor to move around

-        Without Staunch Defenders, the army is fragile. Stormcast unit have a BAD wound/save/cost ratio.

-        Allegiance ability (scions of the storm) is mediocre, and used only in very specific case, because not reliable. In comparison of destiny dices, the 4/5 death abilities, fyreslayers, nurgle and all those global buff, it look lackluster

Another stormcast weakness is magic. No invulnerable save (except on one command trait and one item), and one anti-mage who need to be 160 pts to be efficient. The army need LOT of investment to have a passable magic defense, that will have no effect against a magic-focused list like Tzeentch or Sacrament.

Some people would argue it’s normal, and actually better that the stormcast have a particular weakness. At a time where nurgle unit can run and charge with a + 5 global move and where tzeentch have one the best melee unit in the game, i think the time of « fluff and specific weakness » is over.

 

What should be done :

 

-        Rebalance the units

-        Stop the over reliance on a few powerful if not broken bataillion

-        Making the army more resilient globally. Without staunch defenders and lot of castellant, the stormcast don’t « feel » as sturdy they should be. When you think about stormcast, you imagine giant armored men facing ton of opponent and winning against all odds. Not 220 pts retributor with the same resilience as skullreapers or brutes who are 40 pts cheaper.

-        BUT the army should be less invincible against armies who don’t have ton of high rend or mortal wound output.

-        The army should be more resilient against mortal wounds.

 

How i think it should be done :

 

Point cost :

-        Lowering the cost of ALL vanguard units of 20 pts (40 for the aquilor), no exception

-        Lowering the cost of hammer prosecutor to 70 pts, and javelin prosecutor to 80

-        Making the lone gryph hound a different unit than gryph-hound units. Lowering the gryph hound unit cost at 60 pts for 5, without the warning cry and castellant/veritant bonus (making them similar to chaos wounds or dire wolves in their role)

-        Lowering aetherwing cost to 50 pts

-        Lowering concussors to 240 pts

-        Lowering drakesworn templar to 460 (in the same cost range than a vampire lord on zombie dragon, whith more resilience and utility, but less killing power)

-        Lowering the celestant on stardrake to 500

-        Lowering the lord celestant on dracoth to 200 (too expensive when you think that for 40 pts more, you can have a freaking freeguild general on griffon, or for 80 pts less, a mighty lord of khorne on juggernaut)

-        Lowering the cost of the knight questor to 80

-        Increasing the cost of the lord relictor to 120. Right now, he is waaaay too good and one of the best model in the game.

-        Increasing the cost of the lord castellant to 120 pts

 

Army mechanics

Scion of the storm : making the deep strike guaranteed and when the stormcast player want.I t’s the only way to make it reliable. For preventing MAXIMUM CHEESE with full deepstrike, limiting the number of units who can come from the sky to 3 per turn (stormcast usually come by waves in the fluff)

A new ability : Inspiring heroes : Every STORMCAST MODEL around 6 " of a STORMCAST HERO gain a 6+ invulnerable save against mortal wound (and only mortal wound). Every STORMCAST UNIT around 6 " gain +1 to bravery as well.

Why : Stormcast have one of the few army to not have invulnerable save, and suxx bravery wise (liberators are worse than arboys, bloodwarriors or comparable unit. Even stormcast paladin have only 1 bravery more than brutes, famous for their low bravery). They need a specific hero to not run everywhere, and are VERY fragile against bravery focused attack.

I think this new allegiance ability, would  encourage stormcast player to play their army around their numerous, charismatic and powerful heroes, marching united, few against many, and not disperse themselves too much. It is close to their fluff.

 

The biggest change :

-        DELETE STAUNCH DEFENDER

-        MAKING STAUNCH DEFENDER A BASELINE ABILITY TO LIBERATORS AND PALADINS, AND INCREASING THEIR COST TO 120/220

Why ? because right now, liberators and paladin unit feel « right » only when there is a +1 save (staunch defender) around. They really need this 3+ save to stand out against other units.

But staunch defender is too strong, giving a 2+ to all stormcast heroes and a 3+ to their ranged unit, as well as making dracoth and stardrake ridiculously resilient and not fun to play against.

 

With this change the « frontline » unit of the stormcast become what they should be : resilient guys able to hold their own against a numerical superior ennemy, and excellent in defense. In compensation, the stormcast will have more fragile ranged unit. And it stop the army to be « everything or nothing » : invincible when there is staunch defender, frail without it. People will still have trouble against frontline units, but not the whole army. No or low rend army will struggle to kill the liberators/paladin (as it should be), but not the ranged units.

 

For the command trait, i fond them disapointting and without relief. They should show the personnality of the general, and have some synergy with allegiance ability (cf kharadrons who have command ability about their ships and code, tzeentch with many destiny dice shenaningan, or nurgle with some influence over the wheel). Something more sexy than +1 att or other should be the norm.

 

Profile change 

-        Making Neaeve Blacktalon a vanguard unit

-        Giving the TOTEM keyword to the relictor

-        Allowing the palladors/aquilor to charge after the use of winds aetheric, but now ending their movement 5 " away of ennemy models. Now, they will really able to harass the ennemy like they should, without being able to slip everywhere as before. Giving them a ability that doesn’t synergize with them is stupid : " hey let's give to this  200 pts melee unit an ability to go everywhere without being able to charge, and only to fire 9 pitiful dmg 1 ranged attacks ! "

-        Removing the group mechanic of the desolators (more desolators = more attacks) and giving them one similar to the decimators (anti massive unit ability)

-        While he is « fine », the celestant prime is not really fun. It’s a beautiful and symbolic model that need to stay away of the board during a good chunk of the game, and will likely be removed by the ennemy juste after his arrival. I propose to double his wound cost as well as +1 att on his base profile, but increasing his cost to 600. My goal ? Making him a « legendary/mythic » hero like morathi/archaon/nagash/alarielle, a expensive badass that will wreck ****** (but unlike all of those previously mentionned, don’t bring anything to help his army except his killing power)

-        Making the lord castellant ward unstackable, and making his ability to ALWAYS heal on a 6, no matter the rend or the stack of armor buff. So the heal won’t disapear if the ennemy have rend, but won’t reach ridiculous levels if you stacked armor buff on him. I would remove his offensive ward ability and give him a new that give a 5+ invulnerable save on the unit against mortal wound. So players will have to choose between « more resilient against basic attacks » and « more resilient against mortal wound ». With his new cost of 120, i twill be a powerful model, but taking lot of him will be quickly expensive.

 

Bataillon

Ok, there is waaaaaay too many bataillion to make a rundown of each of them. However, i would change the aetherstrike force so a unit could use marked to death only one time per turn, making it more tactical to play than simply protecting 12 vanguard raptor who wreck everything, and more interesting to face for the opponent

Last but not least : removing the stormhost warscroll bataillion, way too expensive and unplayable at 2000, and replace them by a system similar to the Kharadron Overlords spatioport : you choose your stormhost, gain acess to few items, command ability/ ability, with certain condition. I love the skyport system and would love to see it expanded to other armies

 

So... what do you think about it ?

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I agree with a lot of this. Some of these I disagree with on the basis that it seems like you don't use these units much. For example, stacking castellant buffs with anything but SD is hilariously wasteful on anything but the LCoSD. Even VW libbies don't benefit much from a second castellant buff. Also you list 2 units that are worse than the LCoD like they're better, which is weird. If you're dropping SD and giving it to Paladins and Liberators baseline, what are you giving Dracoths? That's a huge nerf to dracoths relative to these units that's pretty unfair. If you're doing that then I would see some benefit given to the dracoths to compensate. 

The Stormcast have the worst allegiance ability in the game. The standard Order battleshock reroll is better. DoK harpies get it for free.

Vanguard units I'd say 20 for the aquilor and longstrikes, 40 for palladors, hurricanes, all their battalions. Scrap hunters and start over completely. Relictor to 100, Castellant stays, mostly because the proposed change doesn't help. Most armies do mortal wounds and regular wounds as part of the same attack. A 5++ against just MW would almost never be used on the basis that it's stupid and unreliable. The +save would be useful so much more often  I'd call the 5++ the 'must be a changehost' ability.

I think the more effective option for mortal wound defense is to make Gryph hounds and Aetherwings worth taking in their own right. Stormcasts need more wounds to throw around; if Gryph hounds and Aetherwings had better stats at a cheaper price, but were limited in some way to prevent spamming them becoming the best strategy, it would ease the burden of the rest of the stormcast army when it came to absorbing mortal wounds.

I would love to see Neave get that change. I would say 7 minimum for winds aetheric. No opinion on the prime.

The stormhost battalions are idiotic and there's a reason the 'City' abilities are part of the army baseline now. Each and every one of those formations has been totally useless from day one (Except Celestial Vindicators) alongside 90% of every other battalion in the book.

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The need to change the lackluster Allegiance ability, and the convenience of changing the Stormhost battalions into a Skyport/Legion/Temple system (do everyone gets them lately?) are spot on.

We must make it reach GW as soon as possible so they realize the Battletome is not aging well and needs a re-release or an ammendment in GHB 2018. What's the right channel for that?

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Yeah, the grand Battalions were a "nice try", but really lack at the point, that they are way to expensive to play your Stormhost in that way of the narrative (they are only usable in narrative play because in most cases you pay about 400 Points for two Battalions. And in cases where the used Battalion is "Lords of the Storm", it is even worse because it's a hero battalion. (the bad thing could be that players will try to get the strongest rules instead of fluffy ones).

It feels also a bad that the Extremis Chamber isn't playable in matched play at there own, because of the lack of Battleline Units, while simular Armies (Beastclaw Raiders) can be played. Escpecially, when we remember that the Extremis Chamber had there own battletome before.

One point I will bring up here is, that particulary the Stormcast Eternals Battletome feels quite bad in case of Rulewording.

There are multiple instances where in case of extra attacks or mortal wounds instead of normal damage the rule used "for any" for the requirement. This is quite bad because the FAQ label any for the case (one or more) and it is nearly insane that a model with 3 attacks would only make 1 mortal wound and no other damage if all attacks fit the requirement or in case of extra Attacks, that a unit with 20 models would only get one attack extra regardless how many models rolled the requirement. (The point is, when we look at the rules of other factions units, each unit that has such a rule use the term "each" in this case).

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IMO Stormcast keep suffering from the small very very vocal minority who hate them.  They also suffer from being the "introductory" army, which is why their bravery is so crappy even though it doesn't fit the story. The battletome feels like it was assembled early on and prior to considering the changes the GHB 2017 would bring. Also feels like pushed out the door last minute,  for example look at the Knight Azyros, his lore and even the flavor text on the warscroll talk about the ability to land near him with the lantern. Yet that ability is gone.  Oops.

Changes Needed:

  • Bravery should be higher, why would a stormcast run? (err sorry powerwalk).
  • Scions of the Storm.  Wow, this is so bad.  Sigmar doesn't just randomly pick units to throw down.  Should have more control , maybe give the Knight Azyros his ability back (which is still in the lore so you can tell it was a last minute change), which would give a player more control over scions.
  • Celestant Prime needs to be cheaper (220?).  He is a glass cannon so you'll get him down, and get destroyed.
  • Move our lands to 6" instead of 9",  that way its a 50/50 shot of charging.  
  • Agree about the vanguard palladors, the not being able to charge means their ability only helps when getting out of dodge.
  • The Knight Vexillor .....not really useful after changing the teleport.   Recommend putting him back but letting the unit land closer. A cool model that needs more playtime.  OR give him an artifact that allows a 6+ against MW's.  
  • If taking a LCoSD let the dracoth knights be battleline.  Falls in line with the Vanguard Knights being battleline with their general.
  • Lower points on vanguard units, or modify their warscrolls to make them more useful.
  • Lord Relictor is great, I would leave unchanged
  • Gryph Hounds.....I have 7 of them (fun to paint), but they are not very useful. Too points expensive but can be great fun in narrative.
  • Lower points on battalions (or remove points from the completely in matched play).   Stormcast (minus a few units) are Slow. Like really really slow.   Sure deepstrike is powerful but it was the only way for us to move around the battlefield.  
  • Lower points on Hammer prosecutors.   Or lower their save against shooting since they are very agile.
  • Some way to protect against Mortal Wounds (see Knight Vexillor above)  .  A lantern or totem artifact? 

Overall the stormcast have a lot of different options with the variety of units.  But most don't fit together well.   

Oh and every stormcast model should have a helmet option.  Seriously models with no helmets?  

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I love my Stormcast army but it has a lot of issues. It seems like it is being pulled in many different directions and there is no unifying vision for how the army should function, just a random mash of abilities and numbers.

Here is how I would update Stormcast:

1. Remove the Stormhost battalions.

2. Add a Battle Trait that lets a player choose one of the 8 Stormhosts for their whole army. Each Stormhost has a unique command trait & artifact in addition to the abilities from their previous battalions. For example, Celestial Vindicators could gain Vows of Vengeance (reroll hit1 if a model is slain in your unit) as their Battle Trait. 

3. Remove Staunch Defender. It's just too powerful in its current form - it stops people from even considering the other Command Traits, every unit in the army has to be balanced around having it active, and it's just an absurdly strong aura.

4. Paladins (Retributors, Decimators, Protectors) should have a 3+ save instead of a 4+. These guys are supposed to be in the thick of combat but their current rules make them less durable than Liberators, which leaves them as a "glass cannon" type unit (or at least as close to "glass cannon" as Stormcast can get)

5. Give the Knight-Azyros a new ability: Before rolling for a unit to enter play through Scions of the Storm, you can add 1 to the roll. If you do, and that unit enters play, it must be set up within 5" of the Azyros and more than 9" from any enemies.

6. More battleline options. Prosecutors should be battleline with Stormcast allegiance. Dracothian Guard should be battleline if your general is a LCOStardrake.

Of course these changes would require tweaking the point costs.

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Yeah There is absolutely room for fixing SCE in its current state. Its got so much diversity but lacks the encouragement to play outside the norms. I agree with a lot of the main points everyone is bringing to the table. Here are my most wanted fixes:

  • Stormhost Selection.
    • A very requested one: So daughters of khaine  have very simple rules for narrative selection. These are more in line with the 40k school of thought as you choose which subfaction you have, you gain an additional rule and an additional artefact or command trait. Stormhost selection should have never been done with battalions. Its too restrictive! 
  • Delete Staunch Defender
    • Yeah no brainer. What this should have been was a command ability for a very specific stormhost or character, counterbalanced by points or penalty rules. The way it is now is unacceptable.
  • More Battleline
    • another one people want. Most infantry in this army should be battleline and conditional battleline. Aquilor should make palladors battleline. LSoD should make dracoth guard battleline. Prosecutors should be battleline period.
  • Making all units viable
    • Like stated in a lot of posts above, there are units that are just not taken, or taken only very specifically to fulfill a battalion. Prosecutors need to have a either better defense or better offense, i dont really care, it just needs to happen. Gryph hounds need an overhaul, make them debuff units instead of being entirely reactionary. Aetherwings should be able to counter charge period. The lord Veritant need 18" range on his prayer. You could go on forever.
  • Army Battle Trait suggestion
    • So I feel like Scions can stay as it is, and maybe just give us a stormhost that has the ability to add +1 to the roll or whatever. I mean, you can either remove the roll or give us 6" away drop downs instead of 9" away WITH a roll. In addition, i think it would be thematic if stormcast units just ignore rend as an army wide battle trait. Thoughts?
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1 hour ago, hellalugosi said:

So I feel like Scions can stay as it is, and maybe just give us a stormhost that has the ability to add +1 to the roll or whatever. I mean, you can either remove the roll or give us 6" away drop downs instead of 9" away WITH a roll. In addition, i think it would be thematic if stormcast units just ignore rend as an army wide battle trait. Thoughts?

A big NOPE to ignoring rend army-wide. Ignoring Rend doesn't do anything against our bad matchups (mass mortal wounds) and it only turns our good matchups into even more crushing victories.

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42 minutes ago, PJetski said:

A big NOPE to ignoring rend army-wide. Ignoring Rend doesn't do anything against our bad matchups (mass mortal wounds) and it only turns our good matchups into even more crushing victories.

yeah i can see that now that i think about it!

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35 minutes ago, PJetski said:

A big NOPE to ignoring rend army-wide. Ignoring Rend doesn't do anything against our bad matchups (mass mortal wounds) and it only turns our good matchups into even more crushing victories.

Im going to have to agree with that. Unfortunately with the amount of mortal wounds going around these days the SCE are having one heck of a time  dealing with it as an all elite army. every army out there has either horde options or a MW invuln save to balance out except the poster boys. They can either give what was suggested  (a 6+ within 6" of a hero, but that is boring and everyone has it) or price drops all around. A new mechanic could be established that would be much more interesting and unique.  Maybe something like.....on a 6+ its not only negated, its REFLECTED!! that may be a bit too much. On the other hand, you could have something like on a 5+ it turns a MW into a regular wound. it dosent outright negate the MW and even remains a chance to be successful, and it reflects the strength of their sigmarite armor. 

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My two cents, a lot of which has been touched on already:

-Celestant-Prime is my favorite model in the army, but he never sees the table.  I would really love to hear the reasoning behind his points cost because I just can't see it, certainly not in matched play.  Now I know narrative gaming is a thing, and I also enjoy a good narrative to games when I can, but he is still way too squishy and a complete non-factor for half the game while he waits to boost the measly two attacks on his profile.  Also when he was released damage 3 was incredible, now not so much.  Needs to be cheaper by a lot or have the scroll changed to be outright better.  I would settle for cheaper.

-Storm hosts should be like sky ports.  I mean really, why not?  I painted my guys in the celestial vindicators scheme, AND I still have to pay points?  How about you only pay points if they aren't painted in the correct scheme, lol.  All kidding aside, this just seems like the battletomes have evolved and the skyport/temple/legion design space could and probably should apply to the storm hosts.

- Dracoths are pretty much my spirit animal and I would love to be able to field a whole legal army, like say an Extremis Chamber?  I have taken as many as 9 dracoths(1 lcod, 4 temps, 4 fulmis) and it was awesome but still nowhere near broken or even competitive against top tier lists.  No body count for claiming objectives and mortal wounds in any concentration just blow holes through them but dang it looked great and was a ton of fun.  I also like the Templar version of the drake better model wise and he has some synergy with the dracothian guard but at a quarter of your 2000pts he is too pricey to fit in with a list full of the models he has the synergy with, and no thunder shield. 

Thats it for me really.  If I could have only one, it would be a cheaper Prime.  Please.

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3 hours ago, PJetski said:

I love my Stormcast army but it has a lot of issues. It seems like it is being pulled in many different directions and there is no unifying vision for how the army should function, just a random mash of abilities and numbers.

Here is how I would update Stormcast:

1. Remove the Stormhost battalions.

2. Add a Battle Trait that lets a player choose one of the 8 Stormhosts for their whole army. Each Stormhost has a unique command trait & artifact in addition to the abilities from their previous battalions. For example, Celestial Vindicators could gain Vows of Vengeance (reroll hit1 if a model is slain in your unit) as their Battle Trait. 

3. Remove Staunch Defender. It's just too powerful in its current form - it stops people from even considering the other Command Traits, every unit in the army has to be balanced around having it active, and it's just an absurdly strong aura.

4. Paladins (Retributors, Decimators, Protectors) should have a 3+ save instead of a 4+. These guys are supposed to be in the thick of combat but their current rules make them less durable than Liberators, which leaves them as a "glass cannon" type unit (or at least as close to "glass cannon" as Stormcast can get)

5. Give the Knight-Azyros a new ability: Before rolling for a unit to enter play through Scions of the Storm, you can add 1 to the roll. If you do, and that unit enters play, it must be set up within 5" of the Azyros and more than 9" from any enemies.

6. More battleline options. Prosecutors should be battleline with Stormcast allegiance. Dracothian Guard should be battleline if your general is a LCOStardrake.

Of course these changes would require tweaking the point costs.

Those are some of the best suggestions. They touch all the key point with good judgment and without far-fetched suggestions.

I would add an option for +1(+2?) to Scions rolls as a Command Trait or as a Treasured Standard, as both have worthless options. That would make Scions good if you want to invest in it, or irrelevant if you don't (in which you would still bennefit from Stormhost rules).

We must make GW realize that having Stormcast lists ranking high in tournaments doesn't mean they are in a good state, if they are basically built around crutch battalions (and they are as unfluffy as Liberator hordes).

Stormcast have the worst Allegiance ability, outdated mechanisms and iconic units which don't see the tabletop for their weak stats/price (Paladins).

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The crummy bravery of SCE is one of those things that confuses me. It would appear that sigmar 1.0 wanted to make high bravery a rarity. Now with all the fun new codexes it looks like higher leadership is more normal. In the early game SCE bravery was less relevant because of the order allegiance and celestant on dracoth, but now with scions it looks like its become a major issue. They really need to fix how it operates on them, they shouldn't be immune by a long shot but these aren't the kind of guys who go running. Heck, Free Guild has better bravery mechanics than SCE and they are squishy peasants!

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8 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Why do you think Liberator hordes are unfluffy?

They are super elite demi-gods. I can't see them fighting in such hordes or blobs. They are not Grots  or Bloodreavers. Yeah, the rules allow to field them that way, but I feel they shouldn't. 15 Liberators already feel (IMHO) like a lot for such a unit.

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1 minute ago, DanielFM said:

They are super elite demi-gods. I can't see them fighting in such hordes or blobs. They are not Grots  or Bloodreavers. Yeah, the rules allow to field them that way, but I feel they shouldn't. 15 Liberators already feel (IMHO) like a lot for such a unit.

30 does seem like a bit much, but in the lore they are also shown as being an unyielding shield wall against chaos (and often in the artwork there are many more than 30 in a row). 

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48 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

30 does seem like a bit much, but in the lore they are also shown as being an unyielding shield wall against chaos (and often in the artwork there are many more than 30 in a row). 

 

44 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Yeah, in the background there's loads of them! People who take 5's are the unfluffy types!

But how many compared with their enemies? They are never described as hordes, unlike their opponents.

If 30 libs is fluffy, Deathrattle skeletons should be fielded in units of 100 models to keep a reasonable proportion.

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3 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

 

But how many compared with their enemies? They are never described as hordes, unlike their opponents.

If 30 libs is fluffy, Deathrattle skeletons should be fielded in units of 100 models to keep a reasonable proportion.

Excellent point,  the only problem is that 40 man unit of skeletons is now actually stronger than a 30 man blob of Liberators (and even less likely to die/stay dead!) and for almost half the price. 

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4 minutes ago, AdamR said:

You mean they aren't?

Max unit size 40 ? Only 10 more than Liberators. How does it make any sense?

2 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

Excellent point,  the only problem is that 40 man unit of skeletons is now actually stronger than a 30 man blob of Liberators (and even less likely to die/stay dead!) and for almost half the price. 

Yeah but that's crunch (rules) and not fluff. A whole different story.

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Hi,

I want to begin by saying I am the guy who won the 104 player tournament with the 15 drop stormcast army... :)

I feel you make some great points too. Relictors and Castellants are incredibly efficient for their points cost (Relictors even more so, I ran 2 in my 15 drop list and both had lightning chariot)- this may be fixed in GHB2019 with prayers being a one attempt only like spells (like they are in the DOK book) Staunch Defender is also incredibly good and almost impossible to pass up.

I like the idea of staunch defender being a unit ability for libs only, I think pallys with a 3+ save (inbuilt) might be bit too good when you could easily lantern buff them and jump to a 2+ no issue.

Prosecutors can come down for sure.

Vanguard can come down.

I dont have any feelings about the battalions as I dont rate them... Im not saying they were not powerful (Vanguard wing was just downright ridiculous) they just dont suit either how i see stormcast as playing or how I like to play. However, stormcast are a bit like Ogors in that they are incredibly powerful even without the layered synergies other armies possess. This was a key concept behind my army construction. It wasn't like KBB where if you kill the secrator they really start struggling, or the Aether Khemist or the Tzaangor shaman etc etc. Stormcast can afford to lose a number of things in their army and remain incredibly tough (yeah skyfires are still awesome we know, but like in OPs original it is a stormcast focus here).

Perhaps I would like to see the different stormhosts be like the different skyports or temples (from DOK) where it is not a  battalion but it comes with some buffs and some restrictions in regards to the type of army you can select. I think that may add the extra flavour stormcast players may be looking for.

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