Dread Solstice Dilemma - Which Outcome & Why?

[Drofnum]

Are we even sure that the different choices are tied to different alliances/gods?  I got the feeling that there wasnt really a tie in with specific armies but more an overall theme and direction for things.  Obviously some story directions favor some more than others, but I dont know that it is as cut and dry as you guys are making out with skull=Nagash.

[Drofnum]

To expand a bit on what I am saying. 

 

Any army including a Herald could be said to be following the Drake as the heralds are all interpreting the signs and moving accordingly, I could also see stormcast doing this at Sigmars direction, Elves doing it at the behest of their mages, some goblin clans doing so with their Shamans.  

They Eye could easily be followed by Tzeentch, but what about privateers or perhaps the Overlords just looking to profit from the madness in any way they can. Barak Mhornar for example seems to fit this very well. Grots looking to be very Mork(Gork?) like, cunning and brutal.

The Skull could be a great many armies/alliances.  Nagash and Khorne obviously fit pretty well, but so would DoK with what we have heard from Morathi recently.  Almost all of Destruction could pretty easily fit in here as well. Or any faction that dislikes or is wary of magic. Nurgle could be here as well, killing in order to plant his plagues in the dead.

 

I hope it isnt as cut and dry as a vote for X is a vote for Y faction.  I think different signs pointing to a path rather than an army/alliance/group is way more interesting.

[mumperpa]

My Stormcast are going to be fighting for the Skull. They have battled their way through the darkness every day, and simply see this as another stage of infinite conflict. They seek to quiet the prophets to keep the conflict controlled, their greatest worry is that the conflict will erupt into a huge war. 

[Lucio]

14 minutes ago, Sception said:

if you want a greater foothold for nurgle, the best thing to do is to support Nagash by voting for the Skull.  The ascension of Undeath tilts the conflict in the mortal realms away from Order-vs-Chaos and in favor of Live-vs-Death, a conflict which positions Nurgle out of all the Dark Gods at the very center of narrative focus, while simultaneously drawing Alarielle's hostile gaze away from the Plaguefather and towards the Archlich, exposing her fecund realm to Nurgle's putrescent hand.

Nagash is a fool who seeks to disrupt the Cycle, Embrace both life and death, accept the blessings of Papa Nurgle

[Kirjava13]

I will be angling for skull- I've been convinced!

[shinros]

29 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

To expand a bit on what I am saying. 

 

Any army including a Herald could be said to be following the Drake as the heralds are all interpreting the signs and moving accordingly, I could also see stormcast doing this at Sigmars direction, Elves doing it at the behest of their mages, some goblin clans doing so with their Shamans.  

They Eye could easily be followed by Tzeentch, but what about privateers or perhaps the Overlords just looking to profit from the madness in any way they can. Barak Mhornar for example seems to fit this very well. Grots looking to be very Mork(Gork?) like, cunning and brutal.

The Skull could be a great many armies/alliances.  Nagash and Khorne obviously fit pretty well, but so would DoK with what we have heard from Morathi recently.  Almost all of Destruction could pretty easily fit in here as well. Or any faction that dislikes or is wary of magic. Nurgle could be here as well, killing in order to plant his plagues in the dead.

 

I hope it isnt as cut and dry as a vote for X is a vote for Y faction.  I think different signs pointing to a path rather than an army/alliance/group is way more interesting.

If you read up on the malign portents campaign book the portents are related to what nagash is doing. They make a point in the book that Nagash does not want the shamans and seers who worship him to talk about it just case they mess things up for him since they fear punishment. Well that's what I think after reading it. 

[Drofnum]

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

If you read up on the malign portents campaign book the portents are related to what nagash is doing. They make a point in the book that Nagash does not want the shamans and seers who worship him to talk about it just case they mess things up for him since they fear punishment. Well that's what I think after reading it. 

That still doesnt point to a specific portent being more useful to him than others, or that even one is specifically a portent of what he is doing.  The portents were something that everyone was experiencing to different degrees and everyone was interpreting them differently from what i gathered.  He doesnt want those loyal to him to speak about what he is doing so that the others cant prepare or resist him, I think that is outside of the portents.

[Turgol]

We do not have any information that signs favour specific grand alliances and the campaign design was made precisely to avoid simply voting for a GA or faction. That much is true. At the same time, the campaign is about messing up with Nagash's plans. So the reason why skull favours Nagash this time is not necesarilly linked to the skull sign (although it may turn out that the skull favours Nagash and the drake favours Sigmar; I do not think so anyways) but to the logic of the campaign: by simply executing the doomsayers, you are impeding some armies from reaching Shyish and trying to interfere with Nagash. 

[shinros]

18 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

That still doesnt point to a specific portent being more useful to him than others, or that even one is specifically a portent of what he is doing.  The portents were something that everyone was experiencing to different degrees and everyone was interpreting them differently from what i gathered.  He doesnt want those loyal to him to speak about what he is doing so that the others cant prepare or resist him, I think that is outside of the portents.

The largest by far was the great black pyramid, a colossal structure built upside-down at shyish's heart. The ripples and eddies in shyish's energies that began to cascade across the cosmos caused dark omens to take form in the other Mortal Realms - any many a necromancers's spells to raise far more undead than they intended - buy few knew the true cause of the phenomenon. Those shyishan seers and soothsayers that had an inkling of the disaster on the horizon knew better than to speak of it openly, lest they been seen to challenge Nagash's plans and pay for their transgressions with an eternity spent as an undead slave. 

Those prophets and visionaries in the other realms who had come to believe the threat to be real marshalled their armies, and in places even invaded shyish en masse, but the great necromancer's works were already covering the land.

No one knows what's going on. Whatever nagash is doing is causing deathly omens across the realms even the chaos gods get first person accounts of how they have to stop whatever nagash is planning. Sigmar was sitting on his ass doing nothing because he did not think the omens were a big deal until Vandus Hammerhand essentially went "eeer you should look into this. Bad stuff will happen if we don't act. Been getting terrible visions about death and stuff" which in turn caused sigmar to go. "Oh..." and then throws out realmstone meteors from ayzr for the lord ordinators to pick up to divine the meaning of the omens and to stop whatever is coming.  

Now the skull could not favour Nagash at all but going by how all the other factions are acting in the campaign book I think the other two options are actually trying to stop whatever is going on.  Killing/exiling the guys who are trying to make sense of all of this is.... a questionable decision in context of what we know as players. 

As Scepticon said on the other page I think Nagash succeding will make a far more interesting narrative instead of it being just order vs chaos. With Destruction and Death sitting on the sidelines. 

[Drofnum]

12 minutes ago, shinros said:

The largest by far was the great black pyramid, a colossal structure built upside-down at shyish's heart. The ripples and eddies in shyish's energies that began to cascade across the cosmos caused dark omens to take form in the other Mortal Realms - any many a necromancers's spells to raise far more undead than they intended - buy few knew the true cause of the phenomenon. Those shyishan seers and soothsayers that had an inkling of the disaster on the horizon knew better than to speak of it openly, lest they been seen to challenge Nagash's plans and pay for their transgressions with an eternity spent as an undead slave. 

Those prophets and visionaries in the other realms who had come to believe the threat to be real marshalled their armies, and in places even invaded shyish en masse, but the great necromancer's works were already covering the land.

No one knows what's going on. Whatever nagash is doing is causing deathly omens across the realms even the chaos gods get first person accounts of how they have to stop whatever nagash is planning. Sigmar was sitting on his ass doing nothing because he did not think the omens were a big deal until Vandus Hammerhand essentially went "eeer you should look into this. Bad stuff will happen if we don't act. Been getting terrible visions about death and stuff" which in turn caused sigmar to go. "Oh..." and then throws out realmstone meteors from ayzr for the lord ordinators to pick up to divine the meaning of the omens and to stop whatever is coming.  

Now the skull could not favour Nagash at all but going by how all the other factions are acting in the campaign book I think the other two options are actually trying to stop whatever is going on.  Killing/exiling the guys who are trying to make sense of all of this is.... a questionable decision in context of what we know as players. 

As Scepticon said on the other page I think Nagash succeding will make a far more interesting narrative instead of it being just order vs chaos. With Destruction and Death sitting on the sidelines. 

I agree that it would make the narrative more compelling, I just dont believe that the skull definitely favors Nagash. It could just as easily be interpreted as Order/Destruction/Chaos killing off prophets and mages loyal to Nagash because they are trying to hinder their movements into Shyish.  

While things dying definitely can benefit Nagash, not all deaths do.  Which is basically the entire reason he's pissed off in the first place.

 

Edit:  Where we differ here I think is that you believe the signs tie into certain factions, I dont believe this to be the case at all.

[shinros]

5 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I agree that it would make the narrative more compelling, I just dont believe that the skull definitely favors Nagash. It could just as easily be interpreted as Order/Destruction/Chaos killing off prophets and mages loyal to Nagash because they are trying to hinder their movements into Shyish.  

While things dying definitely can benefit Nagash, not all deaths do.  Which is basically the entire reason he's pissed off in the first place.

erm nagash's mages/seers don't even talk about it in the first place. The extract shows this. It outright states Nagash will murder them if they talk about it. Also all death's benefit the skeleton pope. The more things that die the better as per LON. Nagash's own seers are bloody terrified if what he is trying to do.

The extract and campaign book is clearly showing all the other armies are running around following these prophets and omens to stop Nagash. Anyway it's clear enough you have your own view on the subject. 

[Drofnum]

Just now, shinros said:

erm nagash's mages don't even talk about it in the first place. The extract shows this. It outright states Nagash will murder them if they talk about it. 

Them talking about things has nothing to do with what I am saying.  They dont have to say a word to try and block armies from getting in to Shyish, if they are doing so and say Stormcast find out.  Obviously the stormcast are going to "Exile these bothersome prophets, or send their secrets to the grave."  

The whole Malign Portents event has been centered around things that can be interpreted in different ways, we still dont even know what half the videos on the site were indicating.  I dont think its outside the realm of possibility that the signs in the event can also be interpreted differently and are not as cut and dry as they first appear to be.

[shinros]

3 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

Them talking about things has nothing to do with what I am saying.  They dont have to say a word to try and block armies from getting in to Shyish, if they are doing so and say Stormcast find out.  Obviously the stormcast are going to "Exile these bothersome prophets, or send their secrets to the grave."  

The whole Malign Portents event has been centered around things that can be interpreted in different ways, we still dont even know what half the videos on the site were indicating.  I dont think its outside the realm of possibility that the signs in the event can also be interpreted differently and are not as cut and dry as they first appear to be.

I am going to ask do you have the malign portents campaign supplement? I mean cool you have this view but I want to know this before we debate further. 

[Drofnum]

I have and have read it.  I also dont believe the passages you quoted in any way invalidate how I interpret this.  I think you're getting hung up on Nagash keeping his plans secret and forcing his underlings to do the same, I dont think that has any bearing on what we are discussing.  Its also entirely possible we just interpreted what we read differently which is entirely okay.

But yes, i do have it.

[shinros]

11 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I have and have read it.  I also dont believe the passages you quoted in any way invalidate how I interpret this.  I think you're getting hung up on Nagash keeping his plans secret and forcing his underlings to do the same, I dont think that has any bearing on what we are discussing.  Its also entirely possible we just interpreted what we read differently which is entirely okay.

But yes, i do have it.

The Skull: "How dare these stargazing fools spread dire rumours? You are not afraid of the darkness. Exile these bothersome prophets, or send their secrets to the grave."

I am just saying looking at this text in face-value I don't see where it states you are hindering Nagash is any form. By meta knowledge of the malign portents supplement this is hindering your efforts. Since Sigmar himself is taking note of the omens, even the chaos gods via sending their own seers and placing visions. Drake and eye seem like the responsible choices depending on the view of your army if you want to stop Nagash.

Skull to me is just sorta irresponsible unless you are khorne or something. Or merely just covering eyes upon seeing the leering skull in the sky. Still if that's how you want to see it more power to you. 

[Drofnum]

The Drake: "The stars themselves are the key. You use powerful spells or shamanic rites to manipulate these celestial bodies to your will."  And this is exactly what Nagash is doing by manipulating events via sorcery. Which is helping further his cause as well.

The Eye: "Even an ill wind can fill your sails. Whilst hope is replaced with paranoia and superstition, you make the most of the growing madness."  He is using the Vampires he has embedded in cities and his other agents to sow discontent and paranoia in the populaces outside of Shyish and in the madness that creates he hides his true motives while also hindering the movements of his enemies.

You can easily twist each one of these signs in to what you want to see, that is the point I am making.  Sure you see one as more beneficial to him, it very well could be the case, but the argument can be made that it isnt the only one to help him.  What if they all are pushing towards helping Nagash but depending on which one wins out the story plays out differently while the end game remains the same?  I havent seen anything to indicate that what either of us is saying is 100% the case, we could both very well be wrong as well.  I just find the choose your own adventure style of my theory more compelling than voting for X = voting for Y faction to win.

[Carnelian]

I'm playing Stormcast this week and I'll be voting for skulls. 

We are not weak, we do not fear the dark. To much time had been spent prognosticating - not enough time has been spent fighting the good fight! Praise Sigmar!

Ps Shinros and Drofnum: while I appreciate both points of view, your "back and forth" is starting to take over the entire thread which I'm afraid to say imo makes for pretty tedious reading.

[Drofnum]

18 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

I'm playing Stormcast this week and I'll be voting for skulls. 

We are not weak, we do not fear the dark. To much time had been spent prognosticating - not enough time has been spent fighting the good fight! Praise Sigmar!

Ps Shinros and Drofnum: while I appreciate both points of view, your "back and forth" is starting to take over the entire thread which I'm afraid to say imo makes for pretty tedious reading.

I let my boredom at work get away with me, apologies for that. 

 

Since i never really answered the question at hand; I've been playing a lot of random mixed order lists lately so I'm just going to vote for whatever fits the theme of my current army.  Lots of casters? Going with Drake.  If i have some tricksy stuff go with the eye and if its mostly melee or shooting go with the skull.  I think roleplaying a bit will keep it fun.

[AthlorianStoners]

I agree with the assessment that each path can mean many factions. The skull could be Legions of Nagash, Stormcast or Ironjawz, just depends on your armies backstory

[Sception]

In principle, the dilemma outcomes could be read differently, with any faction pursuing any off of guesswork and prediction.  However, in practice, at least in this first week, things are not so ambiguous.

Skull = support nagash by attempting to delay responding forces = death
Drake = oppose nagash by attempting to marshal resistance to his plans = order
Eye = wait and see what happens, look for an opportunity to gain personal advantage in coming conflict = destruction/chaos

Hopefully the dilemmas in future weeks will be less cut-and-dry than that, but that's what we have for how.  Though you can absolutely log your points for whichever you like, for whatever reason you like, even if your choice is not in your factions obvious best interest.  And, again, I strongly encourage all players to use their points to support Nagash wherever possible, because that's simply the most interesting possible outcome for the game's lore going forward.  Anything else is just a perpetuation of the existing status quo.

[PlasticCraic]

10 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

The Skull all the way, I'm not gonna put up with crazies driving trade away from my Free City's skydocks!

(suspect most folks will trend towards the Drake this week mind you. Because nothing bad ever came from opportunism)  

I was thinking the Eye for the same reason!

[Kamose]

10 hours ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

The Drake: "The stars themselves are the key. You use powerful spells or shamanic rights to manipulate these celestial bodies to your will."

My Seraphon will be supporting the Drake of course.  That statement exactly describes what the Slaan are doing all day in their man(frog?)-caves.  And even though he is the youngest and smallest and cutest of the Slaan, Cueyatl can manipulate stars with the best of them!

[Mayple]

(Doublepost)

[Mayple]

8 hours ago, Sception said:

If I might take a step back from the in character fun to make an argument instead as a player of Age of Sigmar, one who hopes to see the dynamic of this game evolve in complexity and interest going forward, I would strongly argue that all players, regardless of personal alliance of choice, log their points in favor of the outcome that most advances Nagash's grand vision for the realms.  The reason for this is simple - to date Age of Sigmar's narrative has been entirely one dimensional, a binary conflict between Order (with Sigmar at the helm) and Chaos (following Archaon).  Dread Solstice offers the first real opportunity to break from that single axis into a multidimensional conflict.

A victory for Nagash here obviously isn't going to plunge the entire realms into undeath, GW isn't going to end the game based on player results in a campaign.  Rather, what it will do is establish the Undead as a real threat in the narrative, an actual third party adding meaningful complication to the narrative.  Defeat for Nagash would just mean the perpetuation of the two-years-stagnant status quo, regardless of whether that defeat is handed out by Sigmar, Archaon, Morathi, or someone else entirely.

That's why I urge you all to push for the Skull this week, and for whatever result best advances Nagash's plans in every week going forward.  How you justify it is up to you.  If you like khorne, support Nagash for his big old skull face.  If you play Tzeentch, support Nagash because his victory represents the best opportunity yet for a change in AoS's narrative rut.  If you play Daughters of Khaine, support Nagash because his ascension will force the other forces of order to turn to Morathi for aid and finally offer her the respect she deserves.  If you play Sylvaneth or Nurgle, support Nagash because his victory will inherently tilt the AoS narrative in favor of Life-vs-Death instead of Order-vs-Chaos, increasing Alarielle's significance within the pantheon of Order and Nurgle's significance within the pantheon of Chaos.  If you play Slaanesh, or Brettonians, or any Destruction army, or any other faction that's been pushed aside and shoved under the rug by GW in AoS so far, then support Nagash as a matter of mutual respect among the little guys, and to stick it to those factions that have been monopolizing all of GW's attention and support up till now.  Even if you play Stormcast, support Nagash because you're just tired of fighting chaos all the time, whether in the fluff or on the tabletop.

A victory for Nagash in Dread Solstice is a victory for Age of Sigmar in general, as a game worth playing and a setting worth investing in emotionally.

. . .

and please disregard my avatar image when considering the merit of my arguments.

What a great, and completely reasonable idea! You can trust-believe that I will do as you say. Yes-yes! Trust me..

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

As of now, my Ironjawz are going for The Eye. Reason? With so many armies mustering, there's no better time to pick a fight than now. Half my clan is going to Shysh to discover what all the hubbub is about, while the rest are going to fight any armies marching to the realmgate to Shysh (so in a way, helping Nagash)