Dread Solstice Dilemma - Which Outcome & Why?

[shinros]

Just now, Soulsmith said:

Something something something Gorkamorka.

Well greenskins are exempt it what's they do. But you are being lead a goblin who has some brains. 

[Soulsmith]

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Well greenskins are exempt it what's they do. But you are being lead a goblin who has some brains. 

Take that back! Zero brains, 100% fungus insanity. 

[Clan's Cynic]

4 hours ago, Chikout said:

So it occurs to me that invading Nagashizzar might be a bad idea. The magic at the edge of the realm of death is said to be unsurvivable by mortals as they rapidly age and die. Nagash’s grand plan has been to move the grave sand from the edge of the realm to Nagashizzar. He has achieved this so that the greatest concentration of grave sand and therefore magic is at the centre of his realm. The result of this is that any mortals who come too close to Nagashizzar will likely die.

I think Nagash wants a huge force to come to Nagashizzar, die and give a massive influx of souls to power whatever his new creation will be. 

Yeah, it seems too obvious of a choice. I mean, three factions went there explicitly to stop invade Nagashizzar and they don't expect the overwhelming victor to be that? Considering the curveballs thrown out thus far, it does scream 'trap'.

[Double Misfire]

1 hour ago, shinros said:

Yeah I believe GW wrote that part in Malign portents/LON for a reason how can you sack a city you can't get anywhere near to?  You will just die. I mean this could be a red herring but this is GW so yeah. Good point considering he killed a man in Ayzerheim via just from a shard walking to the centre might not be a good idea.

Diiiidn't Nagashizzar get sacked to the max and then ruled over for centuries by Archaon and friends during the Age of Chaos? Arcahon's lieutenants didn't get their souls flayed for all eternity until Nagash came back much later.

Battletome: Legions of Nagash describes Nagash as having "regenerated within in the underworld of Stygxx over the centuries that followed", and Nagashizzar itself as being full of "Living slaves, worked until they expire" - plainly stating that Nagashizzar is very much inhabitable by the living, and that it is likely situated in the Prime Innerlands at the heart of Shyish, and is not an underworld or part of an underworld.

 

By my reckoning Nagashizzar is a totally safe bet for the forces of Order, Chaos and Gorkamorka's inclusion rider to invade. Death players should probably consider voting Eye and helping tear Nagashizzar down too; Nagash clearly likes rebuilding things, think of all the money you'll save not having to buy him any Lego for a while.  

[shinros]

33 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

Diiiidn't Nagashizzar get sacked to the max and then ruled over for centuries by Archaon and friends during the Age of Chaos? Arcahon's lieutenants didn't get their souls flayed for all eternity until Nagash came back much later.

Battletome: Legions of Nagash describes Nagash as having "regenerated within in the underworld of Stygxx over the centuries that followed", and Nagashizzar itself as being full of "Living slaves, worked until they expire" - plainly stating that Nagashizzar is very much inhabitable by the living, and that it is likely situated in the Prime Innerlands at the heart of Shyish, and is not an underworld or part of an underworld.

 

By my reckoning Nagashizzar is a totally safe bet for the forces of Order, Chaos and Gorkamorka's inclusion rider to invade. Death players should probably consider voting Eye and helping tear Nagashizzar down too; Nagash clearly likes rebuilding things, think of all the money you'll save not having to buy him any Lego for a while.  

Page 8

"Nagashizzar was Nagash's great capital in the realm of Death, the seat of his power and monument to all that he had accomplished in his long existence. It was a place born from the darkest of nightmares, a fortress-city of looming spires and twisting, mist-shrouded alleys populated by the risen dead. Great cathedrals of bone reached towards the gloaming sky, were flocks of grave-bats whirled and screeched. In vast underground mausoleum palaces the aristocracy of shyish practised their ancient rituals and worshipped their eteral lord and master.

Such was the aura of death that emanated from that place any mortal who set within its walls would find their flesh sloughing from their bones in desiccated clumps of grave dust."

Now let's say a living dude is enslaved to work in the city? The slaves will slowly die turning into skeletons and then they continue working. According to Malign portents skeletons are also working on the pyramids with the slaves. Now what we know in the present information we have this is that this is getting worse due to the upside down pyramids. It's been stated on stream that the people of shyish are finding the very air changing. 

Now from page 14 of LON(present)

The power of Nagash's black pyramids radiates from the very centre of Shyish, within the city of Nagahizzar, turning the surrounding lands hostile and barren. The restless dead launch assaults upon the living with increasing regularity, and fell witch-lights burns in bruised skies. The people of shyish know well their omens, and all can feel a change upon the wind. 

I should also add according to lore with time necromancers also "die" their hearts stop hence they don't literally fall to pieces in Nagashizzar. Due to their studies of the art of nagash.  

Now from Malign portents when Arkhan is staring over the vista

"work-gangs of the living and the dead grinding themselves to nothingness in the monotonous, clockwork labours to raise monuments to Nagash's glory. Skull-faced statues, runic obelisks and monolithic black pyramids."

Now considering Nagash is filling Nagashizzar with pyramids made out of gravesand emitting death magic that sends tremors through out the realms. PLUS in context of this story here. 

https://malignportents.com/story/the-clockmakers-tale/

"With a long-suffering sigh, the clockmaker reached for a shard of the broken glass. A Shyishan piece, judging by the intricate yet sombre glasswork. One of a haul of rare pieces he had acquired at the auction halls in Hymnal Square, recovered from the heirloom-vault of a Carstinian tomb if the seller was to be believed."

That's one shard, ONE. Killed him in such a fashion and people want to just run into a place where a city is known to kill people who walk inside and added on top of that all the pyramids? Now GW can ignore all this but this is just my observation.

 

 

[Redmanphill]

3 minutes ago, shinros said:

Such was the aura of death that emanated from that place any mortal who set within its walls would find their flesh sloughing from their bones in desiccated clumps of grave dust

Note the use of the past tense there.

[shinros]

3 minutes ago, Redmanphill said:

Note the use of the past tense there.

Yeah past tense, hence I added present information before he did not have giant upside down pyramids of gravesand that literally turns people to dust that sends tremors through out the realms. Now imagine walking into place that is now suffused  with magic that can turn people to dust. A place with a known history to outright kill mortals. As I said GW can decide otherwise this is just my observation. 

[Double Misfire]

8 minutes ago, shinros said:

Page 8

"Nagashizzar was Nagash's great capital in the realm of Death, the seat of his power and monument to all that he had accomplished in his long existence. It was a place born from the darkest of nightmares, a fortress-city of looming spires and twisting, mist-shrouded alleys populated by the risen dead. Great cathedrals of bone reached towards the gloaming sky, were flocks of grave-bats whirled and screeched. In vast underground mausoleum palaces the aristocracy of shyish practised their ancient rituals and worshipped their eteral lord and master.

Such was the aura of death that emanated from that place any mortal who set within its walls would find their flesh sloughing from their bones in desiccated clumps of grave dust."

The book states that there once was an aura of Death turning things living stuff into slop, only for Archaon and an at lest partially mortal army of his followers managed breach and destroy Nagashizzar on the following page. GW's editors are generally very good, and it would be unfair to assume they'd be sloppy enough to have a book contradict itself, and so what we can take away from this is that at some point Nagashizzar had life-to-goo aura, but Archaon's invading forces somehow disabled it, meaning that if it was rendered inert once it can have the same thing done to it again... say by a new coalition of invading armies?  

Quote

Now let's say a living dude is enslaved to work in the city? The slaves will slowly die turning into skeletons and then they continue working. According to Malign portents skeletons are also working on the pyramids with the slaves. Now what we know in the present is that this is getting worse due to the upside down pyramids. It's been stated on stream that the people of shyish are finding the very air changing. 

Strong emphasis on the slowly in slowly die. People are ageing and dying rather quickly outside of Nagashizzar/Shyish right now and so following your argument they could probably extend their lifespans by taking the fight down there.  

Quote

Now from page 14 of LON(present)

The power of Nagash's black pyramids radiates from the very centre of Shyish, within the city of Nagahizzar, turning the surrounding lands hostile and barren. The restless dead launch assaults upon the living with increasing regularity, and fell witch-lights burns in bruised skies. The people of shyish know well their omens, and all can feel a change upon the wind. 

I should also add according to lore with time necromancers also "die" their hearts stop hence they don't literally fall to pieces in Nagashizzar. 

Now from Malign portents when Arkhan is staring over the vista

"work-gangs of the living and the dead grinding themselves to nothingness in the monotonous, clockwork labours to raise monuments to Nagash's glory. Skull-faced statues, runic obelisks and monolithic black pyramids."

Now considering Nagash is filling Nagashizzar with pyramids made out of gravesand emitting death magic that sends tremors through out the realms. PLUS in context of this story here. 

So Nagash is back at full strength and has a new security system, making him untouchable? To make a really lazy 40k analogy that would be like saying that Terra's now safe because it's now protected by Primaris Marines and Guilliman's back. We've got 20 years of WFB background to back up what happens when Nagash starts feeling confident.  

[shinros]

5 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

The book states that there once was an aura of Death turning things living stuff into slop, only for Archaon and an at lest partially mortal army of his followers managed breach and destroy Nagashizzar on the following page. GW's editors are generally very good, and it would be unfair to assume they'd be sloppy enough to have a book contradict itself, and so what we can take away from this is that at some point Nagashizzar had life-to-goo aura, but Archaon's invading forces somehow disabled it, meaning that if it was rendered inert once it can have the same thing done to it again... say by a new coalition of invading armies?  

Strong emphasis on the slowly in slowly die. People are ageing and dying rather quickly outside of Nagashizzar/Shyish right now and so following your argument they could probably extend their lifespans by taking the fight down there.  

So Nagash is back at full strength and has a new security system, making him untouchable? To make a really lazy 40k analogy that would be like saying that Terra's now safe because it's now protected by Primaris Marines and Guilliman's back. We've got 20 years of WFB background to back up what happens when Nagash starts feeling confident.  

Well to be honest meta wise it's just strange to me that they just introduced Nagashizzar just to sack it again. I don't see the coalition going right we destroyed the city we will stop here! Or GW repeating the whole "killing" Nagash again narrative. I just feel something is up we just have to wait and see what comes from eye. I still believe Nagash is not going to succeed it's just this choice is so blatant that it's screaming at all the GA's other than death to vote here. Just like last week.

edit:To add I also wonder if week 1 will play into this will they get there too late? Etc. How will our previous decisions play into the narrative when they put all of it together?

[shinros]

GW just posted this telling us there will be consequences for blasting Khul through time. 

edit:someone on facebook posted a crazy and funny possibility 

"I mean if he is blasted back way back he could potentially stop the assault of the first Realmgate in Gate of Azyr. Stopping Sigmar before he could get a foothold"

After the coalition is done with whatever nagash is doing they turn to find Khul suddenly controls a portion of Ashqy.

[Double Misfire]

3 minutes ago, shinros said:

GW just posted this telling us there will be consequences for blasting Khul through time. 

Khul goes back in time to kill Vandus Hammerhand as a baby, only for the baby to get snatched up by Sigmar and reforged, giving us the much speculated new AoS starter set, which is exactly the same as the previous one, only with the Lord-Celestant swapped out for a much smaller one mounted on a Dracoth booster seat and clad in a Sigmarite diaper forged by Grungni himself.

 

Gotta say, I'm really liking all the time travel/manipulation stuff we've seen in this week's results and dilemma. It really opens the door for some awesome narrative twists and turns, and even gives GW a nice smooth way in-universe way of going back and erasing some of the worse written stuff they've published:

Spoiler

 

 

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

3 hours ago, shinros said:

GW just posted this telling us there will be consequences for blasting Khul through time. 

edit:someone on facebook posted a crazy and funny possibility 

"I mean if he is blasted back way back he could potentially stop the assault of the first Realmgate in Gate of Azyr. Stopping Sigmar before he could get a foothold"

After the coalition is done with whatever nagash is doing they turn to find Khul suddenly controls a portion of Ashqy.

So what your saying is Khul will stop The End Times from happening.

This collapses the bubbleverse that is AoS and reverts all armies back from whence they came.

Confirmed Tomb Kings and Brets are coming back, and square bases!

Sorry everyone who bought into stormcast, and new dorfs, your armies are now in an appendix

[Rogue Explorator]

I am quite confident whatever option is chosen, it will turn out in favor for Nagash and Death.

I mean, so far, Dread Solstice has gone exactly Deaths way (by Death, so far, staying pretty much undisturbed while all other GAs essentially have been neutralizing each other, or, in week 1, even neutralizing themself.

So, whatever option is taken, I can not see them turn the entire Campaign around. Dragon and Eye seem clearly ill suited to stop whatever is going on, but even an ill prepared headlong charge into Nagashizzar will likely be to little to late. And it might even be exactly what Nagash wants. No matter how well entrenched he may or may not be right now, a huge influx of spend lifes right at the doorsteps of a God of Death on some grand scheeme is propably never a good thing.

 

That is not to say the Great Work goes of flawlessly. Quite likely it will still fail, it has to fail really. It will likely not even be concluded when Dread Solstice ends, as Malign Portents propably  continues past the Global Campaign.

Dread Solstice seems mostly geared to resolve how MP affects the Realms at large and how much of a dent the other GAs can put into Nagashes plot in the early time of tribulations. I think we can already see that the answers will be "Not for the better" and "Not much of a dent".

[shinros]

1 hour ago, Rogue Explorator said:

I am quite confident whatever option is chosen, it will turn out in favor for Nagash and Death.

I mean, so far, Dread Solstice has gone exactly Deaths way (by Death, so far, staying pretty much undisturbed while all other GAs essentially have been neutralizing each other, or, in week 1, even neutralizing themself.

So, whatever option is taken, I can not see them turn the entire Campaign around. Dragon and Eye seem clearly ill suited to stop whatever is going on, but even an ill prepared headlong charge into Nagashizzar will likely be to little to late. And it might even be exactly what Nagash wants. No matter how well entrenched he may or may not be right now, a huge influx of spend lifes right at the doorsteps of a God of Death on some grand scheeme is propably never a good thing.

 

That is not to say the Great Work goes of flawlessly. Quite likely it will still fail, it has to fail really. It will likely not even be concluded when Dread Solstice ends, as Malign Portents propably  continues past the Global Campaign.

Dread Solstice seems mostly geared to resolve how MP affects the Realms at large and how much of a dent the other GAs can put into Nagashes plot in the early time of tribulations. I think we can already see that the answers will be "Not for the better" and "Not much of a dent".

I hold a similar view Nagash won't succeed but due to being undisturbed his plan will be a partial success. 

[Sleboda]

5 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

going back and erasing some of the worse written stuff they've published:

Diagreement level set to Maximum. I love the End Times stuff, other than the fact that it ended a beloved setting.

[Double Misfire]

17 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Diagreement level set to Maximum. I love the End Times stuff, other than the fact that it ended a beloved setting.

Ha, wasn't sure how clear the winky face behind my spoiler would be, apologies!

IMO the End Times were for the most part a very lovingly put together and considerate send off to WFB, and are a fun guilty pleasure of mine and great bridge between WFB and AoS, I mostly play the part of a permanently dissatisfied grognard prattling on about how much better things I only choose to remember the good parts of were for deliberate comic effect.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Kamose]

14 hours ago, shinros said:

Yay!  My buddy Xen'Phantica is back! 

 

[MacDuff]

I have a bad feeling that whatever we choose it's going to be nasty.

[Menkeroth]

Not a bad thing I'd say

[Carnelian]

The Eye is in a strong lead atm, don't see that changing

[Rogue Explorator]

Well, eye promises the greatest amount of havoc and excitement, and that is what won out each week so far.

 

Offer choices that are equally exciting and insensible, I think that is a definitive takeway should GW try the same overall format again (I sure hope so, much better than the split by allegiance in the recent other global campaigns).

Otherwise people will always choose the option that promises the most glorious mess, no matter how insensible it is compared to all others.

[shinros]

12 minutes ago, Rogue Explorator said:

Well, eye promises the greatest amount of havoc and excitement, and that is what won out each week so far.

 

Offer choices that are equally exciting and insensible, I think that is a definitive takeway should GW try the same overall format again (I sure hope so, much better than the split by allegiance in the recent other global campaigns).

Otherwise people will always choose the option that promises the most glorious mess, no matter how insensible it is compared to all others.

I agree, I think choices should be more opaque like week 2 hence why results were so close because people were not exactly sure what they were voting for. 

[Rogue Explorator]

2 hours ago, xking said:

Week 2 was not a mess.

True, but neither is either of the choices not picked in week 2.

Week two was also, as has been noted by Shinros, the hardest fought week. Week 2 alone offered somewhat balanced and equally interesting choices and it payed off.

So, it hardly contradicts the driving point of my post.

[MacDuff]

Players just want to break stuff. That's why we can't have nice things. But that might be good, to put the various forces on a new playing field.

[Envyus]

We still have one more choice left.