Let's Chat: Verminus

[Num]

Wow, that's a lot of rats...

I think that you need to keep the grey seer as a general to prevent rats from fleeing too much

Keep us posted

[Kugane]

5 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Hi,

I‘m new to this forum.

So it,s nice to meet some people who love to play skaven (and mostly Verminus).

anyways I was wondering, if you guys could give me your opinion  about a list of 2000p  I created.

1Grey seer(120)

1Arch warlock engineer(140)

5x 40clanrats(1000)

3x 20clanrats(360)

2x30plague  monks(420) 

2000p/2000p

 

 

 

Awesome you wish to field so many rats! I would advice combining 2 of the 3 20 man clanrat groups, so you can get a bit of a discount on the points. The plague monks won't help you much in this list, I think you are better off getting something like a Warlord on Brood Horror for the area of effect bravery buff, alternatively you could also get a Verminlord Warbringer to tag along to buff your rats, as well as a Chaos Sorcerer for even more buffs. I think a warbringer + Sorcerer will be great with such big units. You could even choose to have the warbringer be your general.

[Kugane]

My Samurai/Ronin Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror is nearly done! Just need to start layering and adding details :D. Quite happy with the conversion overal.

[Mayple]

4 hours ago, Kugane said:

My Samurai/Ronin Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror is nearly done! Just need to start layering and adding details :D. Quite happy with the conversion overal.

Very nice! You beat me to converting Thanquol into a warlord, you sneaky sneak it looks great!

[Kugane]

15 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Very nice! You beat me to converting Thanquol into a warlord, you sneaky sneak it looks great!

Well, I needed a cloaked rat for the japanese aesthetic. So cut off the top body of the warlord and stuck thanquol on there. It looks different enough now I guess. The bent sword really bugs me though. I realized its crookes after glueing it on already. In the plus side... I found some super glue that is nearly impossible to break/crack. Loctite power flex. It has some rubber in it making it slightly bendable and stops snapping like GW or Zapp super glue. I wonder if heat treating it now that it is painted has any point.

[Num]

Very nice indeed!

It made me think of these conversions I spotted on ebay (food for thoughts):

http://www.hortwerth.com/?p=59

http://www.hortwerth.com/?p=50

[Kugane]

36 minutes ago, Num said:

Very nice indeed!

It made me think of these conversions I spotted on ebay (food for thoughts):

http://www.hortwerth.com/?p=59

http://www.hortwerth.com/?p=50

Very similar conversion style :). He uses a lot of heads from microart studios. I still have like 50 of those lying around. I just like the looks of the GW skaven faces more, so nowadays use different bits.

[Mayple]

I've finally acquired more clanrats, and so I'm sitting on 160 total. 80 Spear Rats, and 80 Assorted, but mostly blade rats. Now the plan is to get ahold of 20 more Stormvermin, and I'll have a full 40-man unit of them as well, making my list going forward the following:

40x Clanrats w/Spear

40x Clanrats w/Spear

40x Clanrats w/Blade

40x Clanrats w/Blade

40x Stormvermin

 

Coming in at a respectable 1300 (Note the holy number) - I can go a great many directions from there. Anything from grabbing Thanquol and supporting the Stormvermin with mystic shield + his command trait as they march up the field, or grab a Warpgnaw Verminlord and bring the Stormvermin through tunnels - Most safe of options would be to use a Grey Seer general, but with the Stormvermin present, I'd like to go with an approach that lets me deal a crippling blow to the opponent's ability to deal with the horde, rather than supporting the horde as a whole. The stormvermin becomes the spine of whatever this list is. I'd go with a Warbringer or Warlord as my general, but both of them on their own would support a "march up and get killed" playstyle that would ultimately give the opponent too much room to breathe. Warlord general + Warpgnaw w/Stormvermin would be a balanced version of that. Warbringer + Warpgnaw w/Stormvermin being the crazy version.

On a funny sidenote, I could also fit the future Skaven-Converted Archaon (Ratchaon) on top of this baseline, although his command ability would not be the selling point of that

[Kugane]

2 minutes ago, Mayple said:

I've finally acquired more clanrats, and so I'm sitting on 160 total. 80 Spear Rats, and 80 Assorted, but mostly blade rats. Now the plan is to get ahold of 20 more Stormvermin, and I'll have a full 40-man unit of them as well, making my list going forward the following:

40x Clanrats w/Spear

40x Clanrats w/Spear

40x Clanrats w/Blade

40x Clanrats w/Blade

40x Stormvermin

 

Coming in at a respectable 1300 (Note the holy number) - I can go a great many directions from there. Anything from grabbing Thanquol and supporting the Stormvermin with mystic shield + his command trait as they march up the field, or grab a Warpgnaw Verminlord and bring the Stormvermin through tunnels - Most safe of options would be to use a Grey Seer general, but with the Stormvermin present, I'd like to go with an approach that lets me deal a crippling blow to the opponent's ability to deal with the horde, rather than supporting the horde as a whole. The stormvermin becomes the spine of whatever this list is. I'd go with a Warbringer or Warlord as my general, but both of them on their own would support a "march up and get killed" playstyle that would ultimately give the opponent too much room to breathe. Warlord general + Warpgnaw w/Stormvermin would be a balanced version of that. Warbringer + Warpgnaw w/Stormvermin being the crazy version.

On a funny sidenote, I could also fit the future Skaven-Converted Archaon (Ratchaon) on top of this baseline, although his command ability would not be the selling point of that

Well, a broodhorror is a must I'd say. I am still uncertain what command abilities Skritch has as well, the website and app have different warscrolls and still no reply from GW, so uncertain wether to take a grey seer, screaming bell or skritch as general.

[Cerve]

Hi, I started Skaven as my second army (Pestilens most of it, but I can field something of Vermin, Masterclan and Moulders so I can play with the Chaos Allegiance too). 

Gaunt-Summoner-on-Vortex. How to deal with him? It is better to pick something with range and strike him down, or the pure mass of rats can litterally drown him down? 

Someone got some experience against this guy? 

[Mayple]

30 minutes ago, Cerve said:

Hi, I started Skaven as my second army (Pestilens most of it, but I can field something of Vermin, Masterclan and Moulders so I can play with the Chaos Allegiance too). 

Gaunt-Summoner-on-Vortex. How to deal with him? It is better to pick something with range and strike him down, or the pure mass of rats can litterally drown him down? 

Someone got some experience against this guy? 

You're gonna want something ranged to deal with that. Jezzails, mortars, or even plagueclaws can get the job done. A bolt of warplightning to the face can also sort him out

[Kugane]

59 minutes ago, Cerve said:

Hi, I started Skaven as my second army (Pestilens most of it, but I can field something of Vermin, Masterclan and Moulders so I can play with the Chaos Allegiance too). 

Gaunt-Summoner-on-Vortex. How to deal with him? It is better to pick something with range and strike him down, or the pure mass of rats can litterally drown him down? 

Someone got some experience against this guy? 

2 warplightning cannons would probably be able to delete any problematic unit for you, relatively cheap to obtain as well. Other than that a team of stormfiends with a warpgrinder team, but the downside is that warpgrinders can sometimes not show up at all, also the opponent can field their stuff in such a way that you cannot harm it.

An arch warlock on a balewind vortex can deal quite some mortal wounds at a huge range, relatively cheap to pull off too.

A verminlord deceiver + Arch Warlock with a skaven assassin can pop up next to the enemy and spam some mortal wounds + assassin attacking.

[Mayple]

 Been brainstorming a sort of "all around" Verminus-focused list that would be able to deal with different threats, and most importantly of all, shiv Kroak before he does his crazy setup. Dropping the stormvermin for more utility, while still keeping the swarm available. The goal here is to nullify whichever threat the opponent has that could conceivably chew through 160 clanrats - whether through a gutter runner alpha strike, or a focus-fired double warplightning cannon volley, any fight that happens on my terms should roll in my favor. 

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Arch Warlock (140)
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Warlock Engineer (100)
Warlock Engineer (100)
Skaven Warlord (100)
- General
- Warpforged Blade
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
- Artefact: Chaos Talisman

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Gutter Runners (200)
- Eshin Battleline

War Machines
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Battalions
Clan Skryre (100)
Arkhspark Voltik (50)
Arkhspark Voltik (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 213


Thoughts? 

[Num]

Looks solid to me...

But why warlord instead of grey seer? Not sure the warlord will give enough punch to the clanrats.

I feel the bell may fit in instead because of the many rats, the movement bonus to the canons, and the threat. What do you think?

Also random idea, not meant for your list, but Festus the Leechlord may be a fluffless answer to the arkhspark drawback

 

[Mayple]

3 hours ago, Num said:

Looks solid to me...

But why warlord instead of grey seer? Not sure the warlord will give enough punch to the clanrats.

I feel the bell may fit in instead because of the many rats, the movement bonus to the canons, and the threat. What do you think?

Also random idea, not meant for your list, but Festus the Leechlord may be a fluffless answer to the arkhspark drawback

 

Due to points (I do love the flat 100 cost on the warlord/engineers) - and because it can make clanrats deceptively dangerous if his command ability is used on the right time. Lord of war might be better than great deceiver in that regard. I tend to throw out inspiring presence + crown until I'm in a fight where the sudden increase in combat power can tear through something valuable opponent's frequently underestimate the power of a full block of spear rats with 2 attacks each. 

Thirdly, and least importantly, I just want to use warlords they're among the coolest Skaven out there

[Deathmaster Snikch]

I experimented with the grey seer as the General for a while. I find a deathrunner is more reliable and survivable. Just to stand back and double inspiring presence each turn 

 

I wish Verminus were more visible. Would love to see a return of the clawpack. Pretty keen for some new Skaven, feel like GW need to give us an update 

[Mayple]

1 hour ago, Deathmaster Snikch said:

I experimented with the grey seer as the General for a while. I find a deathrunner is more reliable and survivable. Just to stand back and double inspiring presence each turn 

 

I wish Verminus were more visible. Would love to see a return of the clawpack. Pretty keen for some new Skaven, feel like GW need to give us an update 

That is definitely a notable alternative. A deathrunner with crown of command also have the potential for four inspiring presences per turn (since both the real one and the clone gets their artifacts), not to mention the double cunning deceiver shenanigans, which is very very nice!  


As for vanilla Verminus, I've been experimenting with a more aggressive playstyle, and I've gotta say, with Dark Avenger, or a succesfull proc of Lord of War; a full unit of clanrats can really lay some hurt on an opponent with a properly timed used Warlord command ability. I was up against Seraphon (Again) a few days ago, and I showed up to the table with 160 clanrats, a warlord, and a warlock-engineer in a 1000 pts game. The sheer number of rats pretty much guaranteed me objective control, but I tried to play smart regardless.

We played the.. uh, starfall one.

I got the choice of first turn, and gave it to him. 

I messed up right off the bat, as I forgot about Seraphon's ability to teleport (To my defence, I've been helping my Fyreslayer buddy out a lot lately, so the deepstriking capabilities of my most recurring foe completely slipped my mind) - And so he dropped a bastiladon in shooting range of my warlord and really brought the pain. The warlord managed to scrape by with a few lucky saves, and praised the great horned rat for his remaining 3 wounds. 

The seraphon player finished his turn, and I gotta say, what happened next was.. unexpected.

I note that the bastiladon is overextended, which is fine, it is a bastiladon after all, with mystic shield on top, it's not like it has anything to fear from a bunch of clanrats, right? Right..!?

57 spearstabs later, and it is down to 1 health. It slaps a few rats in return, but it is more or less out of the fight. My clanrats at the time were at 3+/3+, which landed them about 20-23ish succesfull wound rolls. The other 3 units of clanrats had all failed their charges at their respective parts of the battlefield.

I got the double turn. Now, the spear-rats were only at about 28 or so rats remaining, and no longer hand their buff, so I threw the warlord buff onto a 40-rat unit of sword-wielding clanrats that were in charging distance, and shuffled out the damaged unit with a fresh one by retreating the spear rats past the bastilladon, and charging his Slann. They wouldn't be enough to kill him, but they would definitely tie him down and prevent him from moving about freely, as well as contesting any objectives that might show up in his proximity. The other units of spear-rats and sword-rats charged some skinks on the other side of the map, taking an objective from them. Meanwhile, the 40 swordrats finished off the bastilladon with 65 attacks at 2+/3+! (I got off a 11'' charge, and they started off just outside of 3'', so unlike the spear-rats, I got to put them in a perfect stabbing position) - A bit of overkill, but meat was back on the menu! 

 

At that point, he conceded, since there was absolutely no way for him to deal with the remaining 135-or so clanrats, while my General and Warlock-Engineer were proudly leading from the rear. 

 

 

Notes:
- Clanrats can murder quite well, given the right circumstance. Dark Avenger/Lord of War is crucial for killy Clanrats. The chaos allegiance +1 hit bonus on a 6+ is nice, but too rare to rely on.

- Shuffling out damaged units and charging in fresh ones seem to be not only a very efficient thing to do, but also mandatory if you're actually trying to kill something. Clanrats become weak, to the point of being absolutely useless in combat the moment they start to dip below 30/20 rats. They retain their value as objective grabbers, however, and thus it is much more useful to retreat a unit out of combat, and charge something weaker with their retreat+charge ability, and charging the thing they were fighting with a fresh, buffed unit - than to keep them in a fight for more than a single combat phase. If the opponent doubleturns you, then at least you retain the buff, but their effectiveness will still drastically decrease over the course of the battle. More so than I originally anticipated, Clanrats are actually quite dangerous when they're above 30 and receive a warlord's buff, to the point where I think they would quite realistically chew through a Carnosaur. It is highly important to pick the right battles though, and if you don't get that +1 to hit from some source, like Dark Avenger or Lord of War, then you probably do not want to send them headfirst into a Carnosaur, or even a Bastiladon. 

- The Verminus playstyle seems to revolve a lot around throwing out Inspiring presence while you march up the board/Wait for the opponent to march up the board. Then, once your opponent is in range, and one of your +1's are in effect, you buff your healthiest unit, and tear through a single unit/hero that your opponent overcommited because they thought your clanrats were harmless. Our weakness lies in the fact that we can only hit one spot in this manner at a time, since the clanrats are quite harmless on their own. This means that taking out our Warlord is the best way to mess up our ability to kill things (although, we don't always need to kill things to win) - which makes Skritch Spiteclaw even more valuable, as you can put him somewhere safe, and delegate the risky job of sticking close to the troops to one of the other warlords you bring

[Num]

Thanks for sharing this. Please don't hesitate to share your battle reports here so that we can all learn from them

I see your point on the warlord usefulness and punch. I played a game yesterday with grey seer general again, and again my rats resisted well enough, but were not able to make enough impact. They slowly died by hundreds with no significant result. I had some 10* stormvernins blobs that go quickly wiped out. Only the double cannons made a difference. I was up against Nurgle (6 plague drones, 60 plague bearers etc...). It was a chest bearer kind of scenario (bring the chest to the other side).

At the end I wish i fielded the warlord to make clanrats deadlier. Your battle report just came to confirm that

I'll also try to field my 40 stormvermins in, but I have difficulty squeezing them alongside double cannons yet

 

[bonzai]

I am one of those who shelved their Verminus armies after ghb17 came out. It took three big hits that killed a lot of the synergies and effectiveness that it had. The crown of conquest nerf was a big hit, as now it only works one third of the time. It was a crutch I had to heavily depend on to eliminate leadership issues, especially at lower point levels, as it allowed me to inspire and use the warlords command ability. Now it may not be worth taking. Then they nerfed battle standard chieftain which was also a great leadership buff. It no longer has its inspiring presence aura and isnt even Verminus key word and can't be allied in anymore. Lastly the loss of the clawpack was a big loss. 

With those changes I am not really motivated to push around blocks of 40 rats around and watch them disintegrate even faster. The greyseer is a possible solution, but I hate to give up my warlords command ability. The teeth of my list was always blocks of rats buffed with inspiring presence, gnaw-gnash, and the warbringers death frenzy spell. Even as they die in droves, they would deal major damage back. Now 1 out of 3 turns I might get the crown to work and be able to do the same thing. That's not very reliable, but there aren't a lot of options to replace it with.

The chaos sorcerer is a nice idea. I may borrow it. My Sayl isn't doing anything else these days anyways.

 

 

 

[Mayple]

1 hour ago, bonzai said:

I am one of those who shelved their Verminus armies after ghb17 came out. It took three big hits that killed a lot of the synergies and effectiveness that it had. The crown of conquest nerf was a big hit, as now it only works one third of the time. It was a crutch I had to heavily depend on to eliminate leadership issues, especially at lower point levels, as it allowed me to inspire and use the warlords command ability. Now it may not be worth taking. Then they nerfed battle standard chieftain which was also a great leadership buff. It no longer has its inspiring presence aura and isnt even Verminus key word and can't be allied in anymore. Lastly the loss of the clawpack was a big loss. 

With those changes I am not really motivated to push around blocks of 40 rats around and watch them disintegrate even faster. The greyseer is a possible solution, but I hate to give up my warlords command ability. The teeth of my list was always blocks of rats buffed with inspiring presence, gnaw-gnash, and the warbringers death frenzy spell. Even as they die in droves, they would deal major damage back. Now 1 out of 3 turns I might get the crown to work and be able to do the same thing. That's not very reliable, but there aren't a lot of options to replace it with.

The chaos sorcerer is a nice idea. I may borrow it. My Sayl isn't doing anything else these days anyways.

 

 

 

Yeah, I see what you mean. We are fighting with the shortest stick in the yard - but I also think that's an important reason to keep going. Hit the problem head on and see what we can accomplish despite inherent weaknesses. Look at it like this; If we can come up with effective strategies for Verminus as of right now, or accomplish any victories despite our shortocmings - imagine how incredibly strong we will be once GW throws us any kind of bone

Out of curiosity, what kind of list did you use to run back before Verminus got stomped on? 

[bonzai]

8 hours ago, Mayple said:

Out of curiosity, what kind of list did you use to run back before Verminus got stomped on? 

My 2k list was;

Skaven warlord on brood Horror (general with crown of conquest, great destroyer).

Verminlord Warbringer

Skaven warlord

Skaven chieftain w/ battle standard

20 storm vermin

40 clanrats w/ blades

10 clan rats w/ blades

10 clan rats w/ blades

Warpfire thrower

Warpfire thrower

Warpfire thrower

Warplightning cannon

Warplightning cannon

Verminus Clawpack

The two 10 rat squads would bubble wrap the lightning cannons. The 40 rat brick was supported by the warlord on foot and the chieftain, and the warpfire throwers. Essentially they benifited from the clawpack abilities and the chieftain banner. The warlord on brood horror would support the storm vermin, essentially providing inspiring presence and his command ability. Then the verminlord would buff whatever seemed to be in danger of taking the most damage with his death frenzy spell.  All this was supported with mortal wound output from the warpfire throwers and lightning cannons. It was a fun list, but beatable.  The synergies were great, and capable of supprising offensive output at times. The brick of 40 rats became highly feared at my local shop. 

Change is inevitable, but I took too many hits at once. If they give us something to work with, I will dust them off. I love the army aesthetic, and enjoyed playing it. Once its a bit more functional I'd be happy to play them again.

 

 

[Oldmanlee]

Hi fellow verminus players what would you add to this list to make it 2000pts? 

[Num]

Looks classical but solid not sure the screaming bell should be the general however.

I would either add:

- 1 chaos sorcerer lord (buffing stormvermins) or 2 plague priests or 1 plague priest + 20 clanrats

- 1 warp lightning cannon or 3 mortar teams

 

Cheers

[Mayple]

@Oldmanlee I would at least finish up those two 20rat units of clanrats into blocks of 40 from there you can do a lot of things, but some ranged like @Num suggested to fill out your ability to impact all phases of the game is not a bad idea at all

[ledha]

On 23/03/2018 at 6:25 PM, Mayple said:

That is definitely a notable alternative. A deathrunner with crown of command also have the potential for four inspiring presences per turn (since both the real one and the clone gets their artifacts), not to mention the double cunning deceiver shenanigans, which is very very nice!

 

Wait, what ? Is it real ? how ?