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Thomas E

How balanced is AoS now?

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6 minutes ago, Killax said:

Yeah and I'm not even completely opposed to shooting in combat if GW can't think of a propper replacement. However as before I highly doubt that it will occur in GH2018 but do think that the team will consider it for an likely 2020 Age of Sigmar second edition. Because at the end of the day shooting is totally a nice aspect to have for a game but it just feels very odd that 40K of all places is better in the Magic aspect as Age of Sigmar is and Age of Sigmar of all places has way more lethal shooting going on (in the sence that you can and will remove key targets at your bidding).

Even a simple change to how the game progresses it's phases is a better step in the right direction:
New-40k-Battle-Round.jpg

This way you can actually move into cover, have the Hero/Psychic phase to boost where you want to boost, Shoot at legal targets, Charge and have a small benifit and basically keep what's allready great and tactical about Age of Sigmar.

Cheers,

I kind of like the rule they have that they need to attack the nearest target, so you can move units to the front and to the back strategically and heal them up.

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There aren't many books that they would need to release to put almost everything they currently have (close) to the same level concerning the rules basis,

Free cities, which would cover most of the order stuff in the Legions of Nagash style.

Greenskins book to cover Orcs and Goblins, again in LoN style, with possibly an own book for the night gobbos

Gutbusters book for the ogres

Beastmen

Skaven

Slaanesh

Slaves to Darkness / Everchosen

This would leave some minor bits and bobs out, but they can be covered by allies and grand alliances or by fleshing them out in the Sylvaneth / Daughters of Khaine / Ironjawz style.

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Largely agree with that. Especially the LoN style works well. But the funny thing is that while we could call it the LoN style it's actually just the WFB style. In my opinion many armies didn't need the split up GW applied back in 2015. Though for some it did make sence. My perspective on it for some would be:

Destruction:
- Do keep Orruks and Grotz seperate, it just makes things cooler. Allow them to Ally without issues but at least flesh out both armies enough so that they don't have to be the same force. This conclusion also pretty much applied to WFB. In certain campaigns we also suddenly saw split rules. E.g. Storm of Chaos' Grimgor Boyz was pretty much what Ironjawz is now and that split is actually cool. Likewise I'd gladly see more shroom-Grotz.
- I think that Gutbusters/Maneaters/Fyrebreaters could turn into a very cool more civilized Destruction book. Basically Ogres that are a reflection of 'brutal Order'.

Chaos:
- I completely agree that it would be great to see Brayherds and Warherds logically obtain their own book. Add in Monsters of Chaos too here. I don't really know why GW split them up in the first place because the Brayherd Allegiance Ability is awesome, very fluffy and all but doesn't really serve a point because you can't include enough Warherds in there to really make it jam well, with Ungors and Gors ambushing whilst Minotaurs and Monsters are allready there (for example).
- Hosts of Slaanesh is actually likely to indeed recieve their own book.
- I gladly would want to see a Legions of Nagash book, incorporating the Mortal side in all of this. I really don't see the reason or logic for Everchosen to be seperate from Slaves to Darkness. I'd also love to know what GW's intends are for Darkoath ;) because I have no clue on wether or not they want to split Marauders from Chaos Warriors or not. 
- Clans of the Horned God would be awesome to see as a Battletome also. Again I can see some merrit to not include them all but at least include the minor ones with contracts and all, could be mad fun.

Order:
- In general seems to be in a good state. Do think Dispossessed should be fleshed out, same with Free Guilds but I also believe we will see this occur in the future. In general I believe it would be a smart idea for GW to step a little bit away from Stormcast to flesh out others aswell. 
- Offcourse High Elves need their own seperate Battletome also.

In general though I'm okay with the pace GW works with. The books are great and all very much worth getting. Bumping up the pace of production will lead to complete re-usage of art and all. In that spect I don't want us to have the 8th ed 40k Codex treatment. The content in them is good but I can't say they are the same works of art as the AoS Battletomes.

 

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I wouldn't say the Legions of Nagash style to be the same as WHFB style. If you would do the greenskins in similar fashion you could have something like "general O&G", Orruks, Grots, Skarsnik's horde, Morglum's horde, etc. in the same book, thus having a possibility of general and specilized, but still fully fleshed out armies, in the same book. For Skaven it would be even easier, you would have The Masterclan, which can take everything with just the +1 bravery from numbers thing and then the separate Clans with better allegiance abilities and ability to have more specialized stuff as battleline. So much like the current situation, exept with spell lores and other stuff that you get from having an actual Battletome.

As a separate thing, High elf battletome wouldn't make too much sense concerning the AoS fluff as they no longer have the population to draw the army from. I would much rather see the "free peoples" i.e. human, alef and duardin taken more together as they are in the fluff with more stuff that helps each other out and of course in similar fashion as others, you could have "aelf", "duardin" and "human" allegiances.  This wouldn't  of course rule out that they couldn't do a separate Lion rangers army at some point, but t would make them much more playable in the mean time. 

 

edit. If I were to choose, I would fade away the history on the elves by dropping all the dreadspears etc. and making a common "Aelven guard" warscroll, that you could arm with spears, bows, repeater crossbows or by swords. I however doubt that GW goes in to that direction.

Edited by Jamopower

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Skaven book would be great. It's frustrating how GW completely atomised every previously unified force. Especially when some forces have 1-3 models. 

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52 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

Skaven book would be great. It's frustrating how GW completely atomised every previously unified force. Especially when some forces have 1-3 models. 

Also horribly outdated sculpts/monopose do not help in my opinion, because you are already forced with a certain unit, at the very least that stuff should look amazing haha. I'm super glad shadespire is getting new Skaven in the next 2 weeks, so we can use those as a base for conversion work for some of the outdated models.

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20 minutes ago, Kugane said:

Also horribly outdated sculpts/monopose do not help in my opinion, because you are already forced with a certain unit, at the very least that stuff should look amazing haha. I'm super glad shadespire is getting new Skaven in the next 2 weeks, so we can use those as a base for conversion work for some of the outdated models.

Yeah i'm getting the shadespire kit just to field them in AoS, but it doesn't look like those new models point to anything new for skaven. The pose of the leader is taken from the Warpgnaw FW model and the rest are variations on stormvermin and clanrats.

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4 hours ago, Killax said:

Largely agree with that. Especially the LoN style works well. But the funny thing is that while we could call it the LoN style it's actually just the WFB style. In my opinion many armies didn't need the split up GW applied back in 2015. Though for some it did make sence. My perspective on it for some would be:

My intuition on this is that GW did it to shatter the old world in players' minds, even if, and I agree with you on this, functionally there was no need to split them.  They are putting it back together, but when they do, it is something entirely new. 

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6 hours ago, Killax said:

Yeah and I'm not even completely opposed to shooting in combat if GW can't think of a propper replacement. However as before I highly doubt that it will occur in GH2018 but do think that the team will consider it for an likely 2020 Age of Sigmar second edition. Because at the end of the day shooting is totally a nice aspect to have for a game but it just feels very odd that 40K of all places is better in the Magic aspect as Age of Sigmar is and Age of Sigmar of all places has way more lethal shooting going on (in the sence that you can and will remove key targets at your bidding).

Even a simple change to how the game progresses it's phases is a better step in the right direction:
New-40k-Battle-Round.jpg

This way you can actually move into cover, have the Hero/Psychic phase to boost where you want to boost, Shoot at legal targets, Charge and have a small benifit and basically keep what's allready great and tactical about Age of Sigmar.

Cheers,

As you have brought up 40k I noticed something interesting this Weekend.

As I have a lot of tzeentch stuff I‘ve picked up the Codex thousand sons even though I haven‘t played a game of 40k yet what sprung to my eye was the difference in the magic lore compared to aos. With DoT most of the spells deal just wounds while something like 9/12 spells in the 40k Codex are actually utility spells that will boost/ hinder Units - and iove it. 

I will see what actual difference that will make in gameplay but I expect less point and click.

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Yeah in general Tzeentch is much better designed in 40k, for Nurgle its about the same.

The Crux with DoT is that it highlights so well what AoS core rule issues are.

Now as before, it isnt like Tzeentch is the only offender, its just that Order is full of similar units that can be found cross factions that Order winning tournaments is now seen as a norm and Tzeentch apperantly is the bad guy because it makes a consistent placing too.

Fact of the matter remains that Khorne could stand with them when the Bloodsector stacked like it did with GH2016 so this is another food for thought. Often logical restrictions benifit the game.

Be it on Shooting phase or Battalion its still those two aspects that influence the balance now in such a way that they are the halmark of top competitive vs semi competitive.

What I hope is that Tzeentch in a second edition of AoS would indeed be more like Thousand sons. Handing over some sniping for a better combat presence. Ah well.

Whats funny to look at 40k too is that Tzaangors are great there. This is because the rules for shooting and melee combat are more balanced in 40k.

In that same vein, cool as my WoK BT is, I shouldnt expect it to go anywhere as long as AoS has rend -2 30" D6 wounds ready for it at roughly half the prince ;)

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4 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

Yeah i'm getting the shadespire kit just to field them in AoS, but it doesn't look like those new models point to anything new for skaven. The pose of the leader is taken from the Warpgnaw FW model and the rest are variations on stormvermin and clanrats.

Mostly clanrats actually, and I guess some are quite eshin-y. Regardless most will be used as gutter runners in my army and the rest will go along the clanrats to add some diversity to the mono poses.

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12 hours ago, Killax said:

 

Whats funny to look at 40k too is that Tzaangors are great there. This is because the rules for shooting and melee combat are more balanced in 40k.

 

Aren't Tzaangors quite good in AoS as well? At least they feature quite often in the Tzeentch lists and have their players praising them?

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8 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

Aren't Tzaangors quite good in AoS as well? At least they feature quite often in the Tzeentch lists and have their players praising them?

Well the Skyfire variant is, the others are a complete rarity to me. The prime reason the Skyfire variant is because the Shooting phase in AoS works so wonderfully that you can remove the support right out of your opponents army before it goes online. ;) All the while the rest will stoke units with some wonderful self destroying spells. 

DoT is a great army but yeah, highlights the 'flaws' in AoS to quite some degree. Ultimately though I can't say they are true flaws either. They are simply the strongest rules the game thus armies have acces to and having them makes games work in your favour.

Edited by Killax

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I meant the walking variants. I'm not an expert on Tzeentch, but they seem to be quite hitty for their price. Prime reason why they don't feature so often I guess, is that the other options are even better and they don't feature in the best Batallions.

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Tzeentch players: THE BEST BALANCE THAT HAS EVER EXISTED IN ANY GAME EVER. LITERALLY FLAWLESSLY PERFECT. YOU COULD PUT IT ON THE HEAD OF A PIN IT'S SO BALANCED.

 

Everyone else: :,(

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20 hours ago, Kugane said:

I kind of like the rule they have that they need to attack the nearest target, so you can move units to the front and to the back strategically and heal them up.

This never actually happens. If you have gotten into combat in 40k you're either about slaughter whatever you hit or back out to blast whatever you were fighting into a fine powder. Or you're boned. 

Changing the turn order like that without seriously modifying certain warscrolls (Tzeentch, Nagash, Some nurgle stuf, balewind, others) would make spellcasters ridiculously bonkers OP. Seriously an LoC is abusive enough NOW thank you very much.

Edited by Burf
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1 hour ago, Jamopower said:

I meant the walking variants. I'm not an expert on Tzeentch, but they seem to be quite hitty for their price. Prime reason why they don't feature so often I guess, is that the other options are even better and they don't feature in the best Batallions.

Well it again highlights my points about AoS current rules system.

- Why go into melee if you have a strong shooting option?
- Why play X if Battalion Y supports other units much better and reduces your drops considerably?

1 hour ago, Burf said:

Tzeentch players: THE BEST BALANCE THAT HAS EVER EXISTED IN ANY GAME EVER. LITERALLY FLAWLESSLY PERFECT. YOU COULD PUT IT ON THE HEAD OF A PIN IT'S SO BALANCED.

Everyone else: :,(

Well not totally, if you look into it Order has way more nutty stuff going on. It's just not contained in one faction and in the end that doesn't really matter either because Grand Allegiance Order actually has more viable Battalion options as certain armies do hehehe :D 

To top it all of, the Order Herald is bound to make an impact in the competitive scene where even Tzeentch can't really deal with. I mean with this that it can all be mixed and blended into a Shooting phase army that Tzeentch can't even begin to replicate. At which moment they only have their Dice...

In reality the Shooting phase is the strongest phase and the most options you have for it, Order, the better your army is. It's no coincedence that Order is winning Tournaments and while Tzeentch makes a great show up, it doesn't thake home the trophy.

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How balanced is AOS now?

I'd argue the answer to that is it is reasonably well balanced.  Are all armies totally even, absolutely not.

If you look through the history of Warhammer GW has typically had 2-3 armies (out of 16) which rule the roost at any given time.  I've not really tried to figure out how many armies currently exist for AOS, I'd assume a greater number than 16 and if you take top end competitive play there are usualy about 8-10 builds (I'll specify builds over armies as that feels more relevant these days) which will be there, or thereabouts, in a tournament.  So that suggests the balance is better.

What I'd say is different is there is a little more of a rock/paper/scissors matchup process going on between the armies than there was before.  This would typically narrow down the number of sensible builds which could win an event if the sole purpose of the game was to kill your opponent, however, the scenarios allow different styles of armies to compete regardless of whether they will ultimately get smashed to bits on the table.  As long as they are able to compete in the scenario then they can win the game and this means greater diversity.

Tiers - meh, it's a sliding scale but there are obvious 'better' armies, usually these can be identified as those with significant movement tricks/redeployment tricks. vs those that don't.  Shooting also feeds into it as if you have powerful enough shooting then you can often pick out those buff pieces which enable those tricks so you can at least stand a chance of taking your opponents winning combo away.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Killax said:


In reality the Shooting phase is the strongest phase and the most options you have for it, Order, the better your army is. It's no coincedence that Order is winning Tournaments and while Tzeentch makes a great show up, it doesn't thake home the trophy.

I don't really buy into the shooting dominating the game in that way. Sure shooting is a thing that you want to have a certain amount in your army, but very rare force can have enough of it to really have it as the main game plan. I would say the Tzeentch is the only one to have that option and even then a lot of it comes from the damage spells, at least what I understand. The horror shooting doesn't seem to be so tough and one of the top dog armies in the Changehost doesn't have any other shooting besides the horrors. In order armies, there are typically some shooting, but just a splash and the main heavy lifting is done in combat.

 

in my eyes, the reason why shooting is so good is that without it, you don't often have means to get to the support characters or to some leftovers of units, or far away objective holders and such, not because it destroys the armies as such by the firepower alone.

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13 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

in my eyes, the reason why shooting is so good is that without it, you don't often have means to get to the support characters or to some leftovers of units, or far away objective holders and such, not because it destroys the armies as such by the firepower alone.

Support is the engine of all armies. Thake it out while driving and see the car crash.

Armies arnt taken out by shooting but an army without support ends up losing out the armies who still have it. Which remains my point with it being the strongest phase.

We see more rules that allow for speed. We also see new Heralds for Order who double the ranged offense ;)

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In terms of support, I personally was quite surprised that the Heralds were not universally splashable into any army of their grand alliance. Maybe I was too hopeful, but I kind of expected the heralds to be something that would boost or buff your existing army and not so much being so specific of what or who they boost.

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Shooting (and magic missiles) is strong, but it's still support. The power of the armies is determined by many things. You need to have objective holding power (i.e. stuff like skinks, or splitting horrors), some ranged attacks for the aforementioned reasons, pure hitting power to cut through the enemies, some mortal wounds to not get problems with Stardrakes and such and most of all speed or very good table presence to have your stuff where it needs to be when it is needed there. Sure greywater fastness army with the new Order herald shoots like hell, but as the game is determined by holding objectives around the table, I can't see it doing too well in the game.

 

If we talk about the strongest phases. I would say that hero phase and movement phase are at least as strong as shooting phase.

Edited by Jamopower
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On 2/4/2018 at 8:48 PM, Kugane said:

The thing that I am afraid of is that by the time units finally get their release, GW decides to start scrapping old rules again in a similar fashion as they did with the clawpacks for Skaven. Things keep dissapearing, and often I feel that happens to push sales on other stuff. Things such as named characters that vanished could easily have been renamed or something to keep the rulesets active for players to toy around with.

The models that vanished are out of production, and they vanished because what balance there is in age of sigmar mostly comes from all armies being available to everyone (getting annoyed at being alpha striked by a KO clown car, then go and buy your own clown car list and give them a taste of their own medicine). For this reason models that are no longer produced can have no place in the game as they break the prinipal that balance comes from you being able to go out and buy the models that your opponent has.

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3 hours ago, Kugane said:

In terms of support, I personally was quite surprised that the Heralds were not universally splashable into any army of their grand alliance. Maybe I was too hopeful, but I kind of expected the heralds to be something that would boost or buff your existing army and not so much being so specific of what or who they boost.

Thats not too hopeful. I pretty much expected the same. The Lord Ordinator is the only one who really makes sence to me. At least in terms of model width it can assist.

What I don't really understand is why the Queen doesn't just affect units with the Mortal Keywords. To me at least that makes slightly more sence as just Slaves to Darkness. The Grot is what it is, might still be of use and the Knight of Shrouds would have been excellent too if it had the Legion rules Legions of Nagash has. Don't even know if he's able to obtain them...

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10 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

The models that vanished are out of production, and they vanished because what balance there is in age of sigmar mostly comes from all armies being available to everyone (getting annoyed at being alpha striked by a KO clown car, then go and buy your own clown car list and give them a taste of their own medicine). For this reason models that are no longer produced can have no place in the game as they break the prinipal that balance comes from you being able to go out and buy the models that your opponent has.

Wasn't it one of the main rumours back during the End times, that Age of Sigmar would have releases that are only available for limited period of time? I don't think the production aspect is measured by balance, but by simply the available room in the storage. Having stuff standing there means lost money and also the more you have diffeent boxes, the more they take space in the shop and in the storage. I believe a big reason for dropping stuff in the great Grand alliance purge, was to make room for the new items that they are publishing for AoS and to get rid of stuff that has been standing in the storage for a long time. I also belive that they have had some Lean or sixsigma consultant visiting their premises, as they seem to have a lot lower stock nowadays with stuff regularly out of stock on their webstore. For example I believe almost all of the LotR stuff was in out of stock status after they released the Battle companies book. 

Also by having a limited time period when you can buy stuff has a big influence on buying stuff "just to be sure". I have done it many times.

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