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Aetherwings moving into combat after FAQ


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Aetherwing's Rule:

Watchful Guardians: Aetherwings form close bonds with Vanguard-Raptors, and defend them from their enemies even as the Vanguard-Raptors destroy threats from afar. At the beginning of your opponent’s charge phase, any friendly unit of Aetherwings within 12" of a friendly unit of Vanguard-Raptors can immediately move. Roll two dice – the Aetherwings can move up to this distance in inches. They can retreat with this move, but cannot run, and this move cannot take them further than 12" from the Vanguard-Raptors.

 

New FAQ:

Q: Is the Aetherwings’ Watchful Guardians move a charge move?

A: No

 

Can a unit of Aetherwings use Watchful Guardians to move within 3" of an enemy during the opponent's Charge Phase? It is not a Move Action, which has a specific rule stating that you cannot move within 3" of an enemy. It's not a Charge Move, so it doesn't have to end within 1/2" of an enemy and doesn't trigger "overwatch" type abilities.

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I'd cautiously suggest page 3 here - https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age_of_sigmar_the_rules_en-1.pdf

covers it (nice little table under too). You can still argue it's not a move, 'it doesn't say as if it were the movement phase' but what else is it? It's not a charge per the FAQ. It has to be  a move no?

Q: What is the difference between a move made in the movement
phase and a charge move or pile-in move?
A: In
Warhammer Age of Sigmar
, units can move in the
movement phase, the charge phase and the combat
phase. Moves made in the movement phase are
considered to be ‘normal’ moves, while moves made in
the charge phase are charge moves, and those in the
combat phase are pile-in moves. In addition, things that
allow a unit to move ‘as if it were the movement phase’,
allow a unit to make a normal move.
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1 hour ago, Turragor said:

I'd cautiously suggest page 3 here - https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age_of_sigmar_the_rules_en-1.pdf

covers it (nice little table under too). You can still argue it's not a move, 'it doesn't say as if it were the movement phase' but what else is it? It's not a charge per the FAQ. It has to be  a move no?

Q: What is the difference between a move made in the movement
phase and a charge move or pile-in move?
A: In
Warhammer Age of Sigmar
, units can move in the
movement phase, the charge phase and the combat
phase. Moves made in the movement phase are
considered to be ‘normal’ moves, while moves made in
the charge phase are charge moves, and those in the
combat phase are pile-in moves. In addition, things that
allow a unit to move ‘as if it were the movement phase’,
allow a unit to make a normal move.

By the same source, 'normal' moves use your Movement characteristic. The aetherwing move doesn't.

Also, the 3" caveat applies to the movement *phase*, not moves themselves.

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1 hour ago, Turragor said:

I'd cautiously suggest page 3 here - https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age_of_sigmar_the_rules_en-1.pdf

covers it (nice little table under too). You can still argue it's not a move, 'it doesn't say as if it were the movement phase' but what else is it? It's not a charge per the FAQ. It has to be  a move no?

Q: What is the difference between a move made in the movement
phase and a charge move or pile-in move?
A: In
Warhammer Age of Sigmar
, units can move in the
movement phase, the charge phase and the combat
phase. Moves made in the movement phase are
considered to be ‘normal’ moves, while moves made in
the charge phase are charge moves, and those in the
combat phase are pile-in moves. In addition, things that
allow a unit to move ‘as if it were the movement phase’,
allow a unit to make a normal move.

Reading that it would seem you can end within 3", and the clarification was for the purpose of not triggering any charge-move based abilities from either side.

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It's not a charge move, it occurs outside the movement phase; I'd say they can.

Agreed tentatively. I commented on this in my response to the FAQ (which were excellent overall).

This FAQ may just be reinforcing the fact that you don't have to end within 0.5 inches (or be within 12" of the enemy to do it), i.e. you don't have to satisfy the preconditions of a charge. It's a unique rule with bespoke wording and I've always understood it as not being a "normal move" - with reference to the table cited above.

It has raised some doubt in my mind however.

12 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

only charge moves and pile in's can take you within 3" of an enemy unit.  I would say no. 

I don't agree. These are only two ways in an open list of ways in which you can move within 3" of an enemy unit (as a wholly separate point, you can also setup within 3" of a unit, which has thankfully been clarified separately so as to reinforce the idea that setup rules are not moves). If it helps, I find that the AoS rule set works best if you start from the Warscoll, then back to the core rule set/FAQs for clarification where necessary - rather than the other way around (Shadespire is even more express about this - telling the player in terms that cards are designed to overrule the core rules by allowing you to do things that you normally can do - which is obvious really). I'd avoid starting with the core ruleset and trying to stuff the Warscroll's special rule into that box. The very nature of special rules is that they add to/flatly contradict or go outside the core ruleset. You could call perhaps this permissive or open or something else. The alternative would be to have a closed list of things you can do in the core rules and then Warscrolls only do those things in the closed list - I don't recognise AoS as being that type of game.

The Aetherwing rule is hopefully a good example of this - it's an entirely bespoke rule, which doesn't comply with any of the norms as to timing of the move or any of the other restrictions for a 2D6 move in the charge phase.

Balance wise, I find it hard to believe that they are trying to nerf Aetherwings by preventing them blocking charges. They are ok, but hardly spectacular. They are not as good as Fanatics in the key respect that they can be shot off the board before doing anything.

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3 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

By the same source, 'normal' moves use your Movement characteristic. The aetherwing move doesn't.

Also, the 3" caveat applies to the movement *phase*, not moves themselves.

This is false. In the table, the 3" caveat applies to normal moves, not just in the movement phase. So if its not a charge move (faq) and its not a pile in, it is a normal move. 

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15 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

only charge moves and pile in's can take you within 3" of an enemy unit.  I would say no. 

I agree with this. If Aetherwings could move within 3", the warscroll needs to say so explicitly. GW is specifically saying it's not a charge. The rule says they can "move." Movement does not allow you to move within 3". 

There is absolutely no evidence the intent is to move within 3", and several things point to the fact that they cannot. Assuming they can move within 3" of an enemy because it's a different phase is inconsistent with most other examples of moving out of the movement phase.

Aetherwings can make a blocking move, getting in the way of a charge. They do not move into combat.

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15 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

*Citation needed.

Rules state that you can't move within 3" of an enemy model in the movement phase.

This move occurs in the charge phase.

 

 

Lots of movement in the hero phase. None allows you to move within 3" unless it explicitly says so. Why is this different?

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8 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

This is false. In the table, the 3" caveat applies to normal moves, not just in the movement phase. So if its not a charge move (faq) and its not a pile in, it is a normal move. 

Again - you’re mistakenly assuming that every rule in all the Warscrolls has to fit into little boxes set out in the core rules. It is certainly possible that they can create a new type of move in any arbitrary phase, which isn’t subject to the 3” rule and is entirely bespoke - not fitting into any of the previously existing categories.

It’s a contradiction to assert that a random 2D6 move, in an unusual phase, in the opponent’s turn, that isn’t subject to the preconditions of charge moves and can be used to retreat is somehow “normal”. 

Perhaps they will clarify this again. Again I see no need for heavily nerfing Aetherwings.

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I´m pretty sure it is allowed (just to add on to the pretty clear standing in the Stormcast Thread for people searching the rules forum).

The Desingers Commentary regarding core rules clearly says:

Q: Some abilities allow a model to make a move out of sequence
(in the hero phase, for example), or to make a specific type of
move (a ‘6" retreat move’, for example). Can I run when I make
these moves?
A: You can only run if the ability refers to making
a ‘normal move’ (which includes any move made
‘as if it were the movement phase’) and the ability
doesn’t specify the distance of the move. Note that the
restrictions that apply to normal moves (not moving
within 3" of the enemy, and having to retreat if they
start within 3" of the enemy) also apply to normal moves
made in any other phase. Also note that the increase to
the unit’s Move characteristic for running only applies
to that move.
 
So, for example, if the ability said ‘This unit can make
a normal move’ the unit could run and could not move
within 3" of the enemy unless it retreats, and if it said
‘This unit can move D6".’ then it could not run but could
move within 3" of the enemy.
 

The bold part covers exactly what the Aetherwing Warscroll says. I believe it is one of the only Units with such a rule, that does not say something like "as if it were the movement phase" but that does not make the case any less clear.

Source: Page 5, upper left corner (https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Core-Rules-and-Bases-Sizes-EN.pdf)

 

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