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So the Las Vegas Open Age of Sigmar Championships was held over the weekend in, you guessed it, Las Vegas.  Warhammer Live and the Warhammer Community team were there in attendance and you can check out all the coverage over on the Warhammer Live Twitch channel.

Las Vegas Open Age of Sigmar Championships

Before we get into the army lists, a big congratulations to Scott Reed (the tournament organiser), Elric Edge (of the Rolling Bad podcast) and everyone else who worked so hard to put on an excellent event.  90+ gamers, including some travelling Brits, having a great weekend of Age of Sigmar.

Now the Las Vegas Open Age of Sigmar Championships were held over 7 rounds, using 2,000 point armies in General’s Handbook 2017 scenarios.  The pack can be found here and here.

Las Vegas Open – the results

I don’t have the full results, or all the award placings, but Samuel Valdez (who attended the event) kindly sent me through the top 10 and the lists.   You can also access them through the Best Coast Pairings app. 

So the final standings were:

  1. Andrew Standiferd – Vanguard Wing
  2. James Thomas – Changehost
  3. Tony Moore – Changehost
  4. Oliver Gandouet – Mixed Order
  5. Michael Burch – Skyfires
  6. Joe Krier – Changehost
  7. Bill Souza – Nurgle
  8. Jarrett Zazuetta – “Kroak-nado”
  9. Jeff Paynter – Skyfires
  10. Mike Scaletti – Gore Pilgrims

You can find their lists here: https://aosshorts.com/las-vegas-open-top-10-age-sigmar-lists/

And now the (almost) complete set of lists in one text-searchable and bookmarked PDF here: https://aosshorts.com/useful-resources/age-of-sigmar-tournament-list-archive/.  The lists are in the order of final standing.  Thanks to Sam Valdez for re-typing them all into Warscroll Builder (#madman). 

 

 

Edited by Antipodean7
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Huh, didn't think you could use plague monks in a maggotkin list. 

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Y'know the top commentary around this will be (already is) "nerf vanguard wing" but Tzeentch has already had their share of nerfs and 5/10 lists are the Disciples - Changehost would have taken 1st, 2nd and 5th place without Vanguard wing... Tzeentch netting 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th place. Crazy.

It's not unrealistic to predict 1st - 3rd placing in a chunk of tournaments as Changehost/Tzeentch.

Important Note - I'm not suggesting more nerfs to specific Tzeentch lists. I know changehost had a bunch of nerfs (but still places this well). I think perhaps the destiny dice are more a problem than any battalion. Bit like old destruction GA. I think the destiny dice are cool though.

2nd Important Note - I do think Vanguard Wing needs adjustment but I think it'll totally disappear after any of the elements that make it strong are removed.

/edit/ After reflection, Vanguard wing and  Changehost are so good because of movement/deployment shenanigans. Movement is king. It's hard to know how it's used as there are so many options. So it's hard to fix it - without just gutting the battalions using and (according to some) abusing deployments and swaps.

Edited by Turragor
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The herald's warscrolls all make use of "wholly within" language for hero buffs, which based on that I suspect will be a sweeping change in the upcoming faq. It's sad in a way, as such a change would totally destroy the cornerstone synergy that just about every army list is built upon. However, it would serve to move AoS battles towards looking more like armies and less like silly tendrils and snakes drawing lines from objectives to heroes to combats, though.

On vanguard wing, I think I agree, like you said, basically any missing cog in the wheel of vanguard wing probably kills it, though it's a thing of beauty from a min-max perspective.

Movement is low-key the best stat, and when you set-up instead and with excellent damage, well that's projecting power in like crystallized form.

Edited by heywoah_twitch
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I agree "wholly within" change would be awesome for a game in the FAQ (finger's crossed)

also it doesn't make sense that Skyfires still got Daemon keyword.

Lack of variety relly sucks armies like Sylvaneth or BCR dramitcally fell out of the meta  which sucks. I guess it's cool that Vangurad Wing is doing something but on the orhter hand it's no fun playing against it at all. I hoped Nurgle will have something to counter DoT but nah, maybe DoK will.

It's a problem because sheer mobility of those armies combined with huge damage(especially mortal wounds) output is not funny. Usually very mobile armies didn't have that kind of damage output and huge damage armies lacked mobility. 

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@DantePQ Pusgoyle Blightlords have daemon keyword. As this is the most upto date output on the issue, I’d say that confirms that the skyfires daemon keyword is correct.  Which in turn means skullcrushers lack of daemon keyword is incorrect. 

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2 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

@DantePQ Pusgoyle Blightlords have daemon keyword. As this is the most upto date output on the issue, I’d say that confirms that the skyfires daemon keyword is correct.  Which in turn means skullcrushers lack of daemon keyword is incorrect. 

Correct. GW have confirmed it is done on purpose due to their daemonic mounts.

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I've never played versus changehost but i think I would just concede at the start to help prep for following battle in a timely manner. 

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21 minutes ago, Soulsmith said:

Correct. GW have confirmed it is done on purpose due to their daemonic mounts.

Didn't know that but that doesn't make sense because other models with daemonic mounts didn't get daemon keyword. 

Sure but the point still stands that as far as competitive playing is concerned AoS badly needs more variety. 

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No I agree, it's only started since the DoT and means you can do horrible shenanigans with them. Would absolutely love to at least see competing armies from destruction and death. Hope DoK bring some changes too.

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2 hours ago, Burf said:

Huh, didn't think you could use plague monks in a maggotkin list. 

They have the nurgle keyword, so can be taken, but they don't become battleline because that is Clan Pestilence only.

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2 hours ago, Burf said:

Huh, didn't think you could use plague monks in a maggotkin list. 

They are an excellent addition if you want to add more numbers. As before Nurgle has the widest range of models available to them within Grand Allegiance Chaos :) 
- Rotbringers
- Nurgle Daemons
- Clan Pestilens
- Slaves to Darkness
 - (Everchosen)

Now as is currently the case with most/all Chaos armies I don't think Everchosen really counts but all the others certainly do and allow for very different builds altogether. Plus the best part of it all is that they have a very wide selection of amazing Monster Generals also. If anything I can only expect more Nurgle armies to appear in a competitive setting soon. A lot of Maggotkin of Nurgle units are quite expensive but luckily you can mix in cheaper pieces because of Clan Pestilens or Slaves to Darkness!

2 hours ago, Turragor said:

Y'know the top commentary around this will be (already is) "nerf vanguard wing" but Tzeentch has already had their share of nerfs and 5/10 lists are the Disciples - Changehost would have taken 1st, 2nd and 5th place without Vanguard wing... Tzeentch netting 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th place. Crazy.

It's not unrealistic to predict 1st - 3rd placing in a chunk of tournaments as Changehost/Tzeentch.

Important Note - I'm not suggesting more nerfs to specific Tzeentch lists. I know changehost had a bunch of nerfs (but still places this well). I think perhaps the destiny dice are more a problem than any battalion. Bit like old destruction GA. I think the destiny dice are cool though.

2nd Important Note - I do think Vanguard Wing needs adjustment but I think it'll totally disappear after any of the elements that make it strong are removed.

/edit/ After reflection, Vanguard wing and  Changehost are so good because of movement/deployment shenanigans. Movement is king. It's hard to know how it's used as there are so many options. So it's hard to fix it - without just gutting the battalions using and (according to some) abusing deployments and swaps.

Well more importantly as Battalions such as Changehost the true and simple power for Tzeentch still comes from their Allegiance ability. It's a pitty too because most units seem to be costed with this in mind (on the mortal side) and because of that these choices are rarely taken, as they are for the most part too expensive.

In reality though, for another edition of AoS it would simply be better to not have that much of a litterly game-changing Allegiance ability and basically do it like they did in 40K which means you have a very strong Magic phase and a ton of tricks (I do like the changing aspects). 

So in general I agree, it's not the Battalions that are the issue. Because even without Battalions Tzeentch should be able to present itself on a high level in a Tournament scene. It has also done this in the past. 

Movement is certainly king, but more importantly is the context of movement with guarnteed first turns. The latter is an issue I still have with Battalions and something I'd rather not adress with cost decreases or increases but a whole re-written 'Battalion system', which might aswell thake a page from 40K's book of Stratagems generation...

1 hour ago, Soulsmith said:

Correct. GW have confirmed it is done on purpose due to their daemonic mounts.

Yeah oddly Khorne is the only army without logical Daemon Keyword placement.
- Khorne Lord on Juggernaut does not have it
- Mighty Lord of Khorne does not have it
- Skullcrushers of Khorne do not have it

All these models visually and in narrative appear with their Daemons but don't have this in the game. An oddity because all other Chaos units who appear with Daemonic entities have it. Including even stuff you wouldn't think is Deamon.

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I like Allegiance Abilities as they add certain flavor to the game - for example take Sylvaneth their unique playstale is down to Allegiance Abilities.  I would hate to have stratagems as I love that Wh40k has strategems and CP and AoS has Battalions and army defining Allegiance Abilities. 

Problem is how abusive DoT Allegiance ability is, nobody complain about Blades of Khorne or Sylvaneth allegiance abilities. 

Movement is a problem.  I guess too many armies has abilities to move/teleport very fast and that water down importance of movement and positiong. Forces you more into watching after alpha strikes or teleports then actual movements. And that in fact makes double turn even more important and crushing. 

Edited by DantePQ
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I like Allegiance Abilities, but what I propose is removing Battalions and incorporating their additional abilities as Stratagems.
What this allows for is to add multiple things to the game:
1. Stop the whole one drop aspect.
2. Stop the whole 90% of the Battalions in the game can't be played with issue. 
3. Promote freedom of builds. Additional abilities are not linked anymore to Battalion thus Build X or Y.
Lastly and this is the most relevant aspect for GW sales:
4. Promote the use of model models instead of more Battalions which functionally remove models from 2K armies.

What makes the Tzeentch Allegiance Ability so strong is that it sets the outcome of dice and thus sets the outcome of a dice (game). 

I don't see movement as the issue directly, what I see is that it's a side effect of being forced to have fast moment or massive numbers due to the Shooting phase having no restrictions whatsoever. If you have to eat two turns of shooting with your support characters your done for in a competitive setting. Unless you can do this yourself.


 

Edited by Killax
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You can really extrapolate it all out actually, fascinating - better minds than mine can weigh in.

Initiative roll - chance for a double turn can be very decisive.

Flows into

Shooting armies - ranged is very strong in AoS in general. The double makes some armies frightening. The best way to win in a gun fight is taking a bigger gun.

Flows into

Movement - running towards a gun with a knife isn't smart. Teleporting behind the gun (nothing personnel kid) with a knife is smart.

Flows into

Moving and charging takes time, which equals more arrow holes. It's best to deploy and charge same turn for maximum effect. Alpha striking increases your chance of winning.

Flows into

It's a game of odds (dice) - Improving those increases your win rate. If you can minimise the risk of failing an alpha strike charge into a key target you have a better chance of winning. Bonus victory points for deploying INTO combat (Vanguard Wing, previously SS or WB with Azyros). Or guaranteeing the charges (destiny dice).

Flows into

If everyone can do something strong, choosing who does it when means you beat the mirror match. Hello battalion 1 drops.

Flows into

The only 3 answers to all the above is join them (see LVO results) OR swamp your board with models (horde meta) OR be so good that you can take most lists to tournaments and do well.

 

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3 hours ago, Burf said:

Huh, didn't think you could use plague monks in a maggotkin list. 

They have the Nurgle keyword.  So they aren't even allies.  Many of us saw the maggotkin book and immediately figured the competitive players would just use hordes of plague monks to get the most; with blades of putrefaction and a 40 man plague monk unit with dual knives I think, you average like 12-13 mortal wounds; something ridiculous like that.

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@Turragor that's most certainly what it cascades into from my perspective. The only thing I would change in your flowchart is to have it match with the actual turn rules. Meaning the first influencer comes with deployment (Battalions) followed by 'unrestricted shooting' (Shooting Phase). 

As before, yes certain models can be hidden but to present any functionality most of them actually cannot remain out of line of sight. Because it works this way the Shooting phase still is the best phase to have attacks in barring none as there is no way to prefent this attacks from occuring, making them more difficult by model placement or in general have many models be effective and out of Line of Sight at the same time.

--

In any case, the results of LVO are cool and great information to highlight what could be improved in a newer version of AoS. Not that I solely look at this as a problem offcourse!

So to conclude this more critical topic I'm again very thankful for the share @Antipodean7! Congrats for Andrew winning the tournament! If there are any pictures of the event and armies I'd love to see those too!

Cheers,

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I view Vanguard Wing, Changehost, and Eternal Starhost + Kroak as the easy gatekeeper lists you should be able to beat on the first day, like Dark Reaper spam in 40k. I expect better from a major event like this - that is a disappointing batch of lists.

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I think there is possibility that newer armies will be good counter against for example DoT but not overpowering against other factions (for example - item, ability that nulifies magic for one battle round) or anti-shooting allegiance ability/spells/artefacts without huge rules overhaul. 

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I'd be interested to see what chunk of the field was Changehost or Skyfires, but unless something changes, we should get point increases for GHB2018.

Sad to see no Destruction or Death in the Top 10 either.

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12 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I think there is possibility that newer armies will be good counter against for example DoT but not overpowering against other factions (for example - item, ability that nulifies magic for one battle round) or anti-shooting allegiance ability/spells/artefacts without huge rules overhaul. 

While it's not impossible I will say that from a designers perspective armies are never created based on a "competitive need". This is a great thing also because ideally that's not how a game operates for too long as it means there is a cap to your design limit aswell. 

So when I think about the armies that would have ant-magic turns or anti-shooting I really can't forsee much anti-shooting or anti-magic to occur anytime soon. From a narrative perspective the only true anti-magic army I can forsee (besides Blades of Khorne) would be Dispossessed. For anti-shooting I don't think any viable candidate will present itself soon.

On the other side I'd rather see the game improve than Allegiance Abilities acting as a core rules game changer to improve the game... Having said that though I think we can easily continue this for a couple of years and certainly the game doesn't become less fun with this atributes.

Afterall I'd be the first to admit that the mayority of my games arn't ultra-competitive and LVO results for the most part do not make up a local meta. All they highlight is a combination of great players using the strongest rules of particular game to their advantage :)  I cannot blame them for it because if I would go to a tournament I would do the same. It's just very important to understand that there is a big difference in casual and competitive gaming and ideally casual meta's do not only play ultra-competitive. It just removes so much of the (original build) options.

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Yeah I agree that armies aren't created to counter "tournament meta" and we still don't know how much they playtest new armies I think very little ( KO quick nerf). 

but I can see some kind of anti-shooting mechanic in DoK like abilities with negative to hit modifiers as it matches Shadow Realm.

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Well Vanguard Wing is dead!

/edit/ that's a bit dramatic, those who like the style but not the deployment snaking through screens trick will still get some mileage but for all intents and purposes it's never winning a tournament again. Top 5 maybe.

I may be thinking harshly but honestly I don't see any top changehost (for example) not screening properly and leaving a 6+ inch hole to their juicy targets.

/double edit/ I'm sure  I was extra, super duper dramatic :)

An expert view elsewhere on the boards is that it's strong but not broken which is a good result imo

Edited by Turragor

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