Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Spiny Norman]

20 hours ago, Honk said:

Since your going grand host, i‘m Missing morghast... you could switch the graveguard for 2 and maybe one necro for a vampire.

but you do you...

 

Hey,

I was just thinking upon the models I like. My most urgent question was, if there is a viable way to include a TG (w or w/o GK) in a competitive list or is the VLZD superior in every aspect?

[TheOtherJosh]

38 minutes ago, Bradifer said:

Counters armies that don't have shooting (i.e. the weak ones).

Or spells, or prayers ... or the ability to dispel.

There aren’t many that don’t have any methods to handle the Balewind Vortex. (Folks may not have built their roster to deal with it ... but there are few that have no solution to the issue.)

Most WIZARD HERO units that aren’t Behemoths have 5 to 7 Wounds. Worst case scenario is Lord Kroak at 10 wounds.

 At 100 points a use  ... it isn’t cheap.

It’s also a soft-counter to range issues for casters and casters dealing with Horde armies. (And if both sides have wizards ... both sides can take them.)

[AverageBoss]

Ya, the current Balewind issue stems from the LoC being placed on one at Adepticon through changehost.

This stems from the recent ruling of Monster Morathi being allowed on it after transforming. Many have interpreted that as being allowed only because her transformations is a set up, getting around the "cannot move onto" part of the FAQ concerning the BWV.

Just GW rules at their finest. So nothing new here.

 

 

[Honk]

3 hours ago, Spiny Norman said:

My most urgent question was, if there is a viable way to include a TG (w or w/o GK) in a competitive list or is the VLZD superior in every aspect?

Tg always kinda cool, with gk problematic, because of ally issues (no deathless minion). Going against low morale opponents use two for legion of night ambush. Two big monsters in scream range going ballistic on the backlands of your opponent...awesome. New bite rule also kinda strong, circumventing mortal wound saves...

vlozd is a strong general for every death army, with a big bullseye on his forehead and 440 instead of 300 points.

 

still waiting for my fenrisian wolves:

VLoZD, 3x10 wolves, 2xtg, 2xnecro 40skellis balewind vortex 

2k points of legion of the night fun

[TheOtherJosh]

2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Many have interpreted that as being allowed only because her transformations is a set up, getting around the "cannot move onto" part of the FAQ concerning the BWV.

It’s an easy fix:

”MONSTERS are unable to be supported by the Balewind Vortex due to their unwieldy nature causing the BALEWIND VORTEX’s winds of magic to collapse and the spell to end. Remove the MONSTER unit from the Balewind Vortex, remove the Balewind Vortex and Setup the affected MONSTER within 1” of the Center of where the Balewind Vortex was previously placed. (If the Unit is not placable, it is sucked into the Vortex as the winds of magic rip the unit apart, and it is removed from play.) This counts as the units move for the turn as they attempt to recover from the collapsing of the magical spell and being unexpectedly dropped to the ground.” 

Not likely to happen ... but it would answer the issue... 

[Honk]

Well they could have just written that: monsters cannot use or benefit from the BV. 

All the „who knows what“ and „replace and set up“ madness comes from the wide set of rules and abilities throughout the realms and is therefore extremely hard to have a wording, which is not somehow abusable but high end competitive players

[Arael_Greywings]

9 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

It’s an easy fix:

”MONSTERS are unable to be supported by the Balewind Vortex due to their unwieldy nature causing the BALEWIND VORTEX’s winds of magic to collapse and the spell to end. Remove the MONSTER unit from the Balewind Vortex, remove the Balewind Vortex and Setup the affected MONSTER within 1” of the Center of where the Balewind Vortex was previously placed. (If the Unit is not placable, it is sucked into the Vortex as the winds of magic rip the unit apart, and it is removed from play.) This counts as the units move for the turn as they attempt to recover from the collapsing of the magical spell and being unexpectedly dropped to the ground.” 

Not likely to happen ... but it would answer the issue... 

Unlikley to happen indeed, but I think THAT would be a very nice ruling indeed.

[CharnelChimera]

6 hours ago, Honk said:

All the „who knows what“ and „replace and set up“ madness comes from the wide set of rules and abilities throughout the realms and is therefore extremely hard to have a wording, which is not somehow abusable but high end competitive players

A wording no doubt exists, as evidenced by the attempts to fix it in this thread. The real issue is that you'd need to hire a literal Rules Lawyer, make the rules iron clad without GW's patented obtuse vagueness, and have something like the Future Future League to attempt to catch degenerate interactions all of which which runs against GW's philosophy of testing the rules over beer and pretzels.  When your community is better and faster at pointing out issues than you are, there's a problem.

Less related to the BWV (which just needs a hotfix, at the minimum), but I don't understand why they don't do what Magic or other more complicated, yet better balanced games do and just use a templated ability system. They sort of have it going on for keywords, but even those aren't being used to their full potential. If there was a glossary of what exactly [SET UP] meant, as opposed to things like "put down in the set-up phase" or "when this model is set up" (which, according to the FAQ is different than just Setting Up a unit...?) we'd get much more solid rules interactions. The scaffold is there. They just need to hire real rules writers.

Then again, there is that rumor from that former worker that GW doesn't write balanced rules BECAUSE they have a specific ownership target for models, and that'd get in the way of making profit. I suppose we can't expect a model company to put any effort into making the game work. They're not a rules company, after all.

[Spiny Norman]

15 hours ago, Honk said:

Tg always kinda cool, with gk problematic, because of ally issues (no deathless minion). Going against low morale opponents use two for legion of night ambush. Two big monsters in scream range going ballistic on the backlands of your opponent...awesome. New bite rule also kinda strong, circumventing mortal wound saves...

vlozd is a strong general for every death army, with a big bullseye on his forehead and 440 instead of 300 points.

 

still waiting for my fenrisian wolves:

VLoZD, 3x10 wolves, 2xtg, 2xnecro 40skellis balewind vortex 

2k points of legion of the night fun

 

Thanks for your response! I really want to field 1 TG,since I am not looking forwards to paint another TG or a VLZD to be honest. I am just working on Arkhan.

[Honk]

1 hour ago, CharnelChimera said:

Then again, there is that rumor from that former worker that GW doesn't write balanced rules BECAUSE they have a specific ownership target for models, and that'd get in the way of making profit

Well, the skyfire models are a pain to paint, same goes for nice horrors...there has to be a reason the rules tend to be breakable ;-)

and of course you need the try-hard players to buy new stuff...

But like you said it´s a beer and pretzel group writing and testing the rules and armies, playing narrative games for fun. And then their babies get tossed into the open sea, where the rule-sharks roam, trying to break things into maximised competetive game. But that´s just the way and luckily not in my group.

[TheOtherJosh]

8 hours ago, Honk said:

10 hours ago, CharnelChimera said:

Then again, there is that rumor from that former worker that GW doesn't write balanced rules BECAUSE they have a specific ownership target for models, and that'd get in the way of making profit

Well, the skyfire models are a pain to paint, same goes for nice horrors...there has to be a reason the rules tend to be breakable ;-)

and of course you need the try-hard players to buy new stuff...

But like you said it´s a beer and pretzel group writing and testing the rules and armies, playing narrative games for fun. And then their babies get tossed into the open sea, where the rule-sharks roam, trying to break things into maximised competetive game. But that´s just the way and luckily not in my group

We’re all in the AoS hobby...

Some players buy more, some buy less. Some folks have a larger budget, Other a smaller one. Some folks chase the latest sculpts and rules, others chase the old classic metal poses.  (And are trying to complete an old collection.) Some folks like Matched Play, some just like to collect cool looking models ... (that they may ... or may not paint.) Some folks are razor focused on tournament, others like to create a Grand Storytelling Adventure. Some folks build exactly to the instructions, others make custom creations and display them for us all to enjoy. Some folks welcome everyone, and others are more quiet. Some folks play by the rules as written while others go for a looser approach... and then there are folks who make up their own rules ... and publish them to share with the others in the community.

Whatever a players preference ... whatever the hobby means to them ... they are still part of the hobby. And we are part of that hobby community as well.

As members of that hobby community ... we need to build the community up in a positive fashion ... Unconstructive criticism and complaining doesn’t help build the community. 

[Honk]

What he said...

[Spiny Norman]

Hi guys,

I have a question:

Is there a consensus on the weapon choices for 40 Skeleton units (spears or shields) and Grave Guard Units (shields or great weapons) ?

 

[AverageBoss]

1 hour ago, Spiny Norman said:

Hi guys,

I have a question:

Is there a consensus on the weapon choices for 40 Skeleton units (spears or shields) and Grave Guard Units (shields or great weapons) ?

 

For Skeletons, shields and spears (you get both).

For Grave Guard, that is a bit more of a personal preference, though I prefer Great Weapons due to the lack of non rending weapons in my local meta (if I bother running them anyways).

[Spiny Norman]

26 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

For Grave Guard, that is a bit more of a personal preference, though I prefer Great Weapons due to the lack of non rending weapons in my local meta (if I bother running them anyways).

 

My recent state of rule is that the Shields just work against attacks with rend "0". So shields would be even more useless if there was a plenty of rending in your local meta right?

[RuneBrush]

37 minutes ago, Spiny Norman said:

My recent state of rule is that the Shields just work against attacks with rend "0". So shields would be even more useless if there was a plenty of rending in your local meta right?

Best way to look at shields is that they're a bonus if you come against anything with rend '-', rather than useless when there is rend.  There's actually no reason not to put the shields on as they don't change the cost of the unit (talking about Skeleton Warriors here)

[Spiny Norman]

26 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Best way to look at shields is that they're a bonus if you come against anything with rend '-', rather than useless when there is rend.  There's actually no reason not to put the shields on as they don't change the cost of the unit (talking about Skeleton Warriors here)

I was talking about grave guard. Of course I'm putting the shields on the regular skeletons, since they come for free.

But regarding Grave Guard I guess the +1 Attack that comes with great weapons is the better choice over the "-" rend restricted shields?

[Dracothjay]

Personally, I would always run grave guard offensive with the greatblades, but I have seen a large unit with shields tank an objective and hold it the whole game. But skeletons can always do this as well, but as I said, GG are a great offensive unit and how quickly we can bring back now (as quickly as their warrior counterparts) they become so much more viable.  

A quick mention on synergy, GG can become pretty brutal with lord of nagashizaar command trait and the vampire lords command ability granting a death unit 1 extra attack. GG with 4 attacks each is something to consider, pretty nasty.

[RuneBrush]

4 hours ago, Spiny Norman said:

I was talking about grave guard. Of course I'm putting the shields on the regular skeletons, since they come for free.

But regarding Grave Guard I guess the +1 Attack that comes with great weapons is the better choice over the "-" rend restricted shields?

Great weapons don't have +1 attack, it's +1 to wound instead.  Personally it's still the best option as you're going to get more wounds through when attacking - certainly better than +1 save.  

[Craze]

Hi everyone,

 

I just started hobbying around 6 months ago an decided to start with Sylvaneth.

Now I wanted to also get into a second army and decided to give Death a try. Through birthday gifts and lucky circumstances I own the following stuff right now:

SC Malignants

SC Skeleton Horde

10 Skeletons

2 Necromancers

2 Morghast

 

All of this is unpainted/unbuilt, so I am now just wondering what to play so I can use all/most of this stuff and still have a decent army of roughly 2000 points. I am aware that I have to buy more stuff for this, at least some more skellies and wolves to fulfill battleline requirements.

The most obvious choice would be LoS I guess, where I would really only need to buy additional line troops and could fairly easy use all of the stuff I already have.

But, as I really like the model of Mannfred I just wanted to know, if someone sees a good way of building a halfway decent LoN List with this + some extra purchases?

One more question is about Hexwraiths vs Black Knights: Is there a general consensus on which of both is the overall better unit?

 

Thanks a lot in advance!

[BarrowLord]

Black Knights tend to be hit or miss.  The lack of rend on the charge hurts them, but two damage each on their lances can catch an unwary opponent off guard.  I use them a lot specifically because I have a Deathrattle themed force where they can benefit from Lord of Nagashizzar and the Ossific Diadem.  They stay behind my main skeletal line where they run 'deep strike' interference and run emergency line reinforcement.

Hexwraiths are tougher (with ethereal), have fly, can cause mortal wounds, and still remain summonable.  They are more points, but operate with a lot more autonomy.

[bolderiz101]

can you do prince vordrai breath of shyish even if he runs? since its an ability in the shooting phase and not a missile weapon

 

[Honk]

Why in the shooting phase? It is a ranged effect, but the rules in the app just state: please select a target, the shooting phase is not mentioned. Could use that after a charge, in the hero phase, whatever... else it would be listed in the attackprofiles.

[Xasz]

9 hours ago, Honk said:

Why in the shooting phase? It is a ranged effect, but the rules in the app just state: please select a target, the shooting phase is not mentioned. Could use that after a charge, in the hero phase, whatever... else it would be listed in the attackprofiles.

FAQ:

Quote

Page 100 – Prince Vhordrai, Breath of Shyish Change the first sentence to: ‘At the start of your shooting phase, pick an enemy unit within 8" of this model that is visible to it.’

 

[Honk]

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