Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[swarmofseals]

22 minutes ago, RaritanAnon said:

So I've just about got everything in my army built (40 skeletons, 10 grave guard, 2 necromancers and vampire) and am considering picking up a Barrow Lords box to add to my Blood Queen box and make my 1000pt Deathrattle army complete.

 Does this list look fun for someone new to AoS? A good mix of stuff and decent competitive strength? I do intend on running into Deathmarch, later on, with 10-15 knights and more skeletons. It sounds rad as hell. 

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Trait: Lord of Nagashizzar 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: Ossific Diadem 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
15 x Grave Guard (240)
- Great Wight Blades
5 x Black Knights (120)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 80

I wouldn't build towards Deathmarch as it was nerfed quite hard in the FAQ. To get the movement bonus units have to be wholly within the range of the Wight King now, which makes it really hard to use with the large units that Death wants to field. 

As far as your specific list goes I fielded something quite similar to this recently. The main differences were that I went with 2x5 units of Dire Wolves instead of the Black Knights and a unit of Morghast Harbingers with halberds instead of the Grave Guard. 

I don't really like Grave Guard at the 1k point level mostly because they are slow and therefore quite awkward. Some battleplans will really stretch your army thin in 1k games, and in that scenario you really need some speed to either respond to threats or concentrate force against the enemy. I'll give you a specific example from one of my games with this list:

I was playing against a primarily mortal Khorne opponent who fielded a Bloodsecrator, Lord on Juggernaught, Slaughterpriest, 10 Blood Warriors, 5 Blood Warriors, 5 Wrathmongers and 2 Khorgorath. The battleplan was Scorched Earth, so it was a challenge for both of us to cover all of our objectives. His army was super slow, so I deployed my skeletons and characters in the center cheating a little toward the right, knowing that I could redeploy to the left if he chose to push on that side. I held my flank objectives with my Dire Wolves and put the Morghasts on the center-left. He deployed his 10 man warrior squad on his right, his Wrathmongers on his center right directly across from the Morghasts, his 5 man warrior squad, Slaughterpriest and Bloodsecrator in the center, his lord and one Khorgorath on his center-left and the other Khorgorath on his left. 

What I ended up doing was moving the Morghast Harbingers and Skeletons directly forward. The Morghasts ended up in a position where they could threaten either his right or his center objective, and he couldn't move the Wrathmongers to protect both. Ultimately he cheated the Wrathmongers a bit towards the center, so I charged his Blood Warriors on the right with my Morghasts and ran up my Dire Wolves to fill the gap. My Morghasts won the fight against the Blood Warriors and with the Dire Wolves getting in between the Wrathmongers and the Morghasts I had enough time to finish off the Blood Warriors and burn that objective. At that point it was hopeless for my opponent because he couldn't credibly concentrate his forces enough  take one of my objectives while simultaneously protecting his own. 

This wasn't a tournament game or an impressive win or anything, but it does illustrate the way in which slow units are a liability and even more of a liability in 1000 point games. 

[RaritanAnon]

4 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I wouldn't build towards Deathmarch as it was nerfed quite hard in the FAQ. To get the movement bonus units have to be wholly within the range of the Wight King now, which makes it really hard to use with the large units that Death wants to field. 

As far as your specific list goes I fielded something quite similar to this recently. The main differences were that I went with 2x5 units of Dire Wolves instead of the Black Knights and a unit of Morghast Harbingers with halberds instead of the Grave Guard. 

I don't really like Grave Guard at the 1k point level mostly because they are slow and therefore quite awkward. Some battleplans will really stretch your army thin in 1k games, and in that scenario you really need some speed to either respond to threats or concentrate force against the enemy. I'll give you a specific example from one of my games with this list:

I was playing against a primarily mortal Khorne opponent who fielded a Bloodsecrator, Lord on Juggernaught, Slaughterpriest, 10 Blood Warriors, 5 Blood Warriors, 5 Wrathmongers and 2 Khorgorath. The battleplan was Scorched Earth, so it was a challenge for both of us to cover all of our objectives. His army was super slow, so I deployed my skeletons and characters in the center cheating a little toward the right, knowing that I could redeploy to the left if he chose to push on that side. I held my flank objectives with my Dire Wolves and put the Morghasts on the center-left. He deployed his 10 man warrior squad on his right, his Wrathmongers on his center right directly across from the Morghasts, his 5 man warrior squad, Slaughterpriest and Bloodsecrator in the center, his lord and one Khorgorath on his center-left and the other Khorgorath on his left. 

What I ended up doing was moving the Morghast Harbingers and Skeletons directly forward. The Morghasts ended up in a position where they could threaten either his right or his center objective, and he couldn't move the Wrathmongers to protect both. Ultimately he cheated the Wrathmongers a bit towards the center, so I charged his Blood Warriors on the right with my Morghasts and ran up my Dire Wolves to fill the gap. My Morghasts won the fight against the Blood Warriors and with the Dire Wolves getting in between the Wrathmongers and the Morghasts I had enough time to finish off the Blood Warriors and burn that objective. At that point it was hopeless for my opponent because he couldn't credibly concentrate his forces enough  take one of my objectives while simultaneously protecting his own. 

This wasn't a tournament game or an impressive win or anything, but it does illustrate the way in which slow units are a liability and even more of a liability in 1000 point games. 

I heard about the nerf, but it's not that bad imo. 12" is generous enough, but I doubt it'll work for consecutive turns. I'm actually playing with the idea of going Sacrament for 'Mastery of Death' which would give me a free 7" move to units in my Wight King bubble. That might help.

 

And yeah, that's been a thorn in my side, maneuverability. I like Morghasts and Wolves and they definitely fill that gap. And I know GG are kinda not the bees knees but I love the models a ton. I'm balancing cool theme vs. competitive strength it feels. 

[swarmofseals]

14 hours ago, RaritanAnon said:

I heard about the nerf, but it's not that bad imo. 12" is generous enough, but I doubt it'll work for consecutive turns. I'm actually playing with the idea of going Sacrament for 'Mastery of Death' which would give me a free 7" move to units in my Wight King bubble. That might help.

 

And yeah, that's been a thorn in my side, maneuverability. I like Morghasts and Wolves and they definitely fill that gap. And I know GG are kinda not the bees knees but I love the models a ton. I'm balancing cool theme vs. competitive strength it feels. 

That's certainly fair. I think at 2k you can definitely find a place for Grave Guard, I just wouldn't do it at 1k.

[RaritanAnon]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

That's certainly fair. I think at 2k you can definitely find a place for Grave Guard, I just wouldn't do it at 1k.

Yeah, I can see your point. Hm. Vamp and two necromancers is solid. Then I'm either going with 40 skeletons 10 wolves and 2 Harbingers

OR

40 skeletons 15 grave guard and 5 black knights

No reason I can't try out both though I suppose. 

[bolderiz101]

i have a question about curse of the years spell from arkhan the black

When you go down till 1+ do you stop or do you restart at 6+ or is it 1+ till the target is destroyed

[Dracothjay]

7 minutes ago, bolderiz101 said:

have a question about curse of the years spell from arkhan the black

When you go down till 1+ do you stop or do you restart at 6+ or is it 1+ till the target is destroyed

I think once you hit 1 the unit is wiped.... no matter what it is lol

[hughwyeth]

1 hour ago, Dracothjay said:

I think once you hit 1 the unit is wiped.... no matter what it is lol

This is correct. I believe it's quite low probability-16% or something. But the threat is enough to make people waste units destroying Arkhan.

[RaritanAnon]

Alright, chit chatted with some of my friends on list building, I think I've come down to one that I'm pretty fond of. I can even swap over to other Legions with this one and see if I like them, because Night is looking pretty nice with a +1 to my skeleton's saves and the whole ambushing thing. We'll see. How's it look? And I know I have room to make the Wight King a vampire but I dunno if I want to lol

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: Grave-sand Timeglass 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade (120)
- General
- Trait: Lord of Nagashizzar 
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
2 x Morghast Harbingers (220)
- Spirit Halberds
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
10 x Grave Guard (160)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields

Total: 950 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 82
 

[Spiny Norman]

I wonder if there's a way to include a Terrorgheist in an LoN list lead by Arkhan and be competitive?

f.e.

 

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash

Leaders
Necromancer (110)
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
Necromancer (110)

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
15 x Grave Guard (240)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Grand Host of Nagash Battleline

Behemoths
Terrorgheist (300)

Total: 1480 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
 

 

 

I have a really neatly painted Terrorgheist and Arkhan model and I am eager to paint some graveguard.

 

[jobume]

Quick question: can you mix weapons in a Morghast unit? 

[Honk]

5 hours ago, Spiny Norman said:

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash

Leaders
Necromancer (110)
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
Necromancer (110)

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
15 x Grave Guard (240)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Grand Host of Nagash Battleline

Behemoths
Terrorgheist (300)

Total: 1480 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110

Since your going grand host, i‘m Missing morghast... you could switch the graveguard for 2 and maybe one necro for a vampire.

but you do you...

[Honk]

46 minutes ago, jobume said:

Quick question: can you mix weapons in a Morghast unit? 

No, sadly no mixing and...

The rule say halberds or swords, so please, mix and match for second line halberds with 2“ reach

[BURF1]

So in light of Chaos players using rules lawyering to break the game again, I have new list idea!

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament

Leaders
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Amaranthine Orb (Vampires)
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: Wristbands of Black Gold 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Soul Harvest
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: Shroud of Darkness 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blades
30 x Dire Wolves (320)
10 x Hexwraiths (320)
- Nighthaunt Battleline

Units
1 x Corpse Cart (80)

Behemoths
Mortis Engine (180)

Battalions
Lords of Sacrament (70)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 169
 

 

Arkhan steals 'summon balewind vortex' from the necromancers and since neither the spell nor the FAQ does anything to stop behemoths getting on top of balewind vortexes(it's a setup not a move and the spell only stops monsters from KNOWING summon balewind vortex, not casting it. Since Arkhan steals spells, wham bam, thank ya ma'am!) Now we can see how much that Lord of change likes getting aced out by a 48" range curse of years first turn! 

Also you could do this with Nagash too, but he's way too good in close combat.

[Honk]

23 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

Also you could do this with Nagash too, but he's way too good in close combat.

If you want to go that way, he has 3“ reach... And for one round of unhindered soulstealing and vile transference

That is rule lawerying of highest degree, but if you group is playing that way...

[TheOtherJosh]

19 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

Arkhan steals 'summon balewind vortex' from the necromancers and since neither the spell nor the FAQ does anything to stop behemoths getting on top of balewind vortexes(it's a setup not a move and the spell only stops monsters from KNOWING summon balewind vortex, not casting it. Since Arkhan steals spells, wham bam, thank ya ma'am!) Now we can see how much that Lord of change likes getting aced out by a 48" range curse of years first turn! 

Friendly Chaos player here to help out: 

Arkhan can’t steal it if you already have it in your inventory... and he doesn’t “Steal spells” ... “Arkhan also knows the spells of any DEATH WIZARDS within 18” of him.” So he knows the spells of friendly death wizards within 18” ... he is within 18” of himself and is friendly ... and has an explicit deny on that knowing.

“Balewind Call:If you have a Balewind Vortex model, WIZARD HEROES in your army know the Summon Balewind Vortex spell in addition to any others they know, provided that they are not also a MONSTER”

So, he can’t know it ... even though the necromancers know it because he’s a MONSTER. (His keywords even say so ...)

If we could only get him on foot ... 

I’m sure that you would have gotten away with your diabolical plan had it not been thwarted by those pesky Chaos players ...  

[Honk]

6 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

So, he can’t know it

Even though I don‘t like the idea of circumventing the rule as intended, the rule as written states:

balewind call: if you have a BV model wizard heros in your army know the summon balewind vortex spell in addition to any others they know, provided that they are not also a monster.

so of you have the model in your army all „small“ wizards know the spell, monsters don‘t know it. 

Now the rule from Nagash or arkhan states: Arkhan also knows the spells of any death wizard that is within 18“ around him.

faqs states even from enemy death wizards. So nothing prevents him from „learning“ the spell afterwards. The rules do not state monsters cannot or must not know the spell.

the faq states: Note that a Monster may not be moved onto a Balewind Vortex for any reason.

Where they kinda make clear, that balancing arkhan on the vortex is not intended, but as stated above by the defensiv attorney, the set up rule doesn‘t mention moving the casting model. It states:

If successfully cast, remove the caster model and set up the bv model where they (why it is plural here I don’t know) stood. ...(move displaced models)... Then place the caster on the upper platform.

The caster/ monster is not moved anywhere, but he/she/it is removed and then the caster is placed on the upper platform of the bv...

 

soooo, i guess technically you could put arkhan on the vortex even though it really was not intended. But if your local meta is that way...

[Honk]

And now you might ask: them why do they even have the „must not move onto“ rule at all. Well, if we went down that hairsplitting line, you arrive at a point, where you are tempted to surround arkhan by his battalion of two necromancer and a Vampir. Then they all start casting their vortexes with arkhan in the middle and the last vortex pushes arkhan on the first vortex  ... 4for3

then madness reigned eternally 

[Trayanee]

6 minutes ago, Honk said:

Even though I don‘t like the idea of circumventing the rule as intended, the rule as written states:

balewind call: if you have a BV model wizard heros in your army know the summon balewind vortex spell in addition to any others they know, provided that they are not also a monster.

so of you have the model in your army all „small“ wizards know the spell, monsters don‘t know it. 

Now the rule from Nagash or arkhan states: Arkhan also knows the spells of any death wizard that is within 18“ around him.

faqs states even from enemy death wizards. So nothing prevents him from „learning“ the spell afterwards. The rules do not state monsters cannot or must not know the spell.

the faq states: Note that a Monster may not be moved onto a Balewind Vortex for any reason.

Where they kinda make clear, that balancing arkhan on the vortex is not intended, but as stated above by the defensiv attorney, the set up rule doesn‘t mention moving the casting model. It states:

If successfully cast, remove the caster model and set up the bv model where they (why it is plural here I don’t know) stood. ...(move displaced models)... Then place the caster on the upper platform.

The caster/ monster is not moved anywhere, but he/she/it is removed and then the caster is placed on the upper platform of the bv...

 

soooo, i guess technically you could put arkhan on the vortex even though it really was not intended. But if your local meta is that way...

I don't think this is the same. The set up wording on the balewind is for sure exploitable but the wording on the balewind clearly states he cant know the spell as a monster and it doesn't really matter how he would acquire it...

[Honk]

56 minutes ago, Trayanee said:

clearly states he cant know the spell as a monster

and i think there is a difference, between getting to know a spell via the balewind vortex (which he clearly can not) or acquireing the spell, because you know all spells wizards around you know (why not?).

Arkhan and Nagash even know spells from enemy death wizards, which is really funny...and the rule only says, that within the rules of the BV all your wizard heroes know the spell except monsters.

Why should that prevent Arkhan from learning the spell afterwards? Where does it say monsters are not allowed to know this spell?

As I said above, i totally acknowledge the fact, that this is not intended and "monster wizards" are not supposed to be on the vortex. But if you have to play in an environment where nitpicking and rule lawering seems to be hot (i´d move elsewhere) you might have to buckle up and get your own attorney.

 

He does not "know" the spell, he "learns it" from his wizards, he is not "moved onto" the vortex but "removed from the board" and "placed onto" afterwards...

[TheOtherJosh]

3 hours ago, Honk said:

He does not "know" the spell, he "learns it" from his wizards, he is not "moved onto" the vortex but "removed from the board" and "placed onto" afterwards...

The wording for Arkhan’s “Magic” section specifically states that he “knows” not learns. The spell calls out that MONSTERS can’t know the spell.

4 hours ago, Honk said:

And now you might ask: them why do they even have the „must not move onto“ rule at all.

Because the Changehost players were abusing the rule by leveraging the ability to move units and to put monsters into the Balewind (in a not-dissimilar fashion to putting Arkhan or Nagash into the Balewind), the “trickery” was to cast the spell with a non-monster, use the Changehost to then move a non-compliant unit (IE Lord of Change) onto the Balewind through a WIZARD swap.

Leveraging the logic, the LoC could “learn” the Summon Balewind Vortex via his special ability:

“Spell-thief: If the result of an unbinding roll for a Lord of Change is 9 or more, it learns the spell that is being cast, and can cast it in subsequent turns.”

And Kairos would know the spell via his “Magic” reference that he too has that same ability as Arkhan/Nagash.

“Kairos also knows the spells of all other WIZARDS from your army that are within 18" of him.”

[Grimnaud]

13 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

The wording for Arkhan’s “Magic” section specifically states that he “knows” not learns. The spell calls out that MONSTERS can’t know the spell.

Because the Changehost players were abusing the rule by leveraging the ability to move units and to put monsters into the Balewind (in a not-dissimilar fashion to putting Arkhan or Nagash into the Balewind), the “trickery” was to cast the spell with a non-monster, use the Changehost to then move a non-compliant unit (IE Lord of Change) onto the Balewind through a WIZARD swap.

Leveraging the logic, the LoC could “learn” the Summon Balewind Vortex via his special ability:

“Spell-thief: If the result of an unbinding roll for a Lord of Change is 9 or more, it learns the spell that is being cast, and can cast it in subsequent turns.”

And Kairos would know the spell via his “Magic” reference that he too has that same ability as Arkhan/Nagash.

“Kairos also knows the spells of all other WIZARDS from your army that are within 18" of him.”

I agree. The whole "LoC-on-Balewind" shenanigan is based on exploiting the wording in the FAQ (may not be moved onto for any reason, when Move is a spesific term within the game). There doesn't seem to be any reason why a monster couldn't be placed on top of a balewind by the same logic, since he is "placed on top", but the active wording for both Arkhan, Nagash, and Kairos is that they all "know" the spell, which is directly prohibited by the balewinds warscroll.

This whole mess will hopefully be FAQ and erretaed out of existance soon. Hopefully before someone teleports a Bastiladon on top of a balewind.

[CharnelChimera]

What bases do Dire Wolves go onto? 25x50 ovals? 60x35mm ovals?  40/50mm rounds? The conversion chart says 60x35 and GW's store website gives no guidance.

[TheOtherJosh]

36 minutes ago, CharnelChimera said:

What bases do Dire Wolves go onto? 25x50 ovals? 60x35mm ovals?  40/50mm rounds? The conversion chart says 60x35 and GW's store website gives no guidance.

Currently they look like they’re on the (old) rectangular cavalry bases (looks like 25x50 rectangular). I’d recommend the 60x35 bases as those are a standard base size in AoS. (The direwolves don’t appear to have been reboxed.)

The 60x35 are also available in the Shattered Dominion Line. ( https://www.games-workshop.com/Shattered-Dominion-60mm-90mm-Oval-Bases ) If that’s your preferences. 

[Bradifer]

Just another example of how great BWV is for this game.

Constantly requires rules debates, makes many spells pretty ridiculous.

Makes objectives literally untouchable. Low risk high reward. Counters armies that don't have shooting (i.e. the weak ones).

Yuck.

[RaritanAnon]

18 minutes ago, Bradifer said:

Just another example of how great BWV is for this game.

Constantly requires rules debates, makes many spells pretty ridiculous.

Makes objectives literally untouchable. Low risk high reward. Counters armies that don't have shooting (i.e. the weak ones).

Yuck.

It's the WAAC cup of tea. Personally I refuse to use them, ever. And I will be unhappy playing against you if you do, as well. Too much for only 100pts.