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Don’t expect focus on order to go away. There will always be many more order factions. Even with DoK, we are still missing Freepeople, Malerion shadow aelfs, light aelfs, and this is discounting all likely order over represented surprises. 

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Yes but Death was one book before and Destruction 2. Order was what, 6? I think if you're expecting Death to have a similar level of support to Order or Chaos you're probably going to be disappointed. They're important but they're the minor players in the overall story of the fight against Chaos.

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6 minutes ago, Tailessine said:

The main issue i seeis that this release will now make order even more bloated- this will be what, 8 battletomes to Deaths eventual 2 and destructions 3?

In the end it doesnt really matter because more reasons are added to go for a specific non-Grand Allegiance.

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17 minutes ago, Killax said:

In the end it doesnt really matter because more reasons are added to go for a specific non-Grand Allegiance.

It would only matter if they ever do a summer campaign where you have to fight for your GA and the winner gets most of the rewards in the form of even more warscroll options at the end of said campaign. You know... that would be a terrible idea if you knew the numbers were that lopsided... right?  ;)

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6 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

They have no Japanese style features and never had. What a surprise. Neither Samurai vibe nor pre-samurai. What they do have, though, is medieval Chinese vibe (in which the former high elves excel more), with Chinese helmets, cuirasses and long robes. Also the weapons are also Chinese, from spears to crossbows. 

P.S. Persians in any era have nothing to do with the elves too, by the way.

https://www.quora.com/Did-fantasy-writers-draw-their-inspiration-from-East-Asian-culture-when-they-created-elves

From there especially this quote:

 

"From non-western sources, Jes has also used elements of ancient Persian Immortals and Japanese Samurai such as the long-skirted lamellar armor and bowcases. The White Lions axeman is unusual in that he is based on a more northern look, drawn from the Rus (historically, Vikings that went east and settled in Russia).

The Japanese theme emerges strongly here with the robed wizard, and the more general Eastern influence is used for both cavalry concepts - particularly the horse archer, which is based around images of Scythian light cavalry and Turkish Spahis.
- 'The Gothic and the Eldritch: The Collected Sketches of Jes Goodwin'"

 

Of course it has evolved along the years, but the 4th edition classic elven look has taken from both samurais and persians.

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45 minutes ago, Elmir said:

It would only matter if they ever do a summer campaign where you have to fight for your GA and the winner gets most of the rewards in the form of even more warscroll options at the end of said campaign. You know... that would be a terrible idea if you knew the numbers were that lopsided... right?  ;)

Who cares or stated things work exactly like you describe here? It seems like one hell of an assumption there.

In reality Order allready has the most unit choice options, followed by Chaos, Death and Destruction. 

To me the game since GH2017 really isn't about Grand Allegiances anymore and much more focusses on what you want to play. No campaign outcome will change what I like to play.

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24 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

-Reads through thread- Aelf players are a strange lot... ;p

-Waaagh-

Nahh... It's just that there isn't that much narrative and a whole lot skipped on it all because of I don't know... reasons.

A while ago I made a point about Battletome Everchosen making little sence as Battletome content as is. Especially because it's mentioned over a dozen times that Archy leads Slaves and there isn't a single Slaves to Darkness Unit Warscroll in the book...

Then a a shorter while ago I made a topic revolving the mess Keywords are for Grand Allegiance Death and how it actually means that the Allegiances found in Death can't even logically co-operate.... We have a new Battletome comming up that will adress this and people get mad it's "Death soup"...

Long story short is that players arn't a strange lot but way too many don't bother to look much into the little bits of Age of Sigmar lore there is. A lot of things can be designed ever so slightly more logical and I think this is what we will continue to see soon ;) 
- Malekith is Malerion
- Malerion doesn't hate Morathi anymore
- Both these former Dark Elves are born anew and work together with Sigmar
- Both these logically fit into Grand Allegiance Order because their allies are allies of Sigmar

Lastly in terms of that High Elves Samurai debate, I really don't see any samurai stuff in there but hey, as mentioned before, if Jes says that is what inspired him to draw it like that. That's all cool. Do think it's very important to state that he said this about High Elves. Which arn't the Dark Elves, which arn't the suggested Daughters of Khaine from this video ;) 
Cheers!

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Just now, Jamopower said:

Dark elves used to be high elves in chainmail and with spikes :) (and bigger axes)

No not really, don't know where that comes from...

What made them different from the start was evil nature, female witches with blood sorcery and assassins. Not chainmail, axes or spikes but following Khain.

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Yeah, I meant the basic troopers with that, of course there are other differences as well. 

I have always thought that the reason they dropped a lot of elven units from the catalogue when the grand alliance books came was because they kept the newest kits from each of the "standard unit" i.e. wood elf archers, dark elf spears and fast cavalry, dragon princes for knights, etc. As the "base line" for all of the three elven factions has more or less been the same units. Which is also why I wiuld like to see the common unit entry for those units, that could be used for all of the aelven sub factions (which I also know that it will not ever happen).

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10 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

Yeah, I meant the basic troopers with that, of course there are other differences as well. 

I have always thought that the reason they dropped a lot of elven units from the catalogue when the grand alliance books came was because they kept the newest kits from each of the "standard unit" i.e. wood elf archers, dark elf spears and fast cavalry, dragon princes for knights, etc. As the "base line" for all of the three elven factions has more or less been the same units. Which is also why I wiuld like to see the common unit entry for those units, that could be used for all of the aelven sub factions (which I also know that it will not ever happen).

I can agree with that premise, there was plenty of good stuff in the High Elf line but it was fairly old, and those amazing sculpts from Spire of Dawn/Isle of Blood were on combo sprues with Skaven, so they couldn't simply rebox them.  

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So a wild especulation emerged: what if that weird as hell snake isn't Malerion but MORATHI!?

That is the general consensus/idea. I mean the trailer is Shadow Queen. Tons of nods towards her, and I doubt that Malerion is confused about his gender.

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4 minutes ago, Rhivan said:

That is the general consensus/idea. I mean the trailer is Shadow Queen. Tons of nods towards her, and I doubt that Malerion is confused about his gender.

plus the did say he melded with a dragon, so I bet he will be more Draconic, and she will be more Maedusa-y (plus that hits more with the greek theme,  plus Medusa was wronged by the gods and turned into a monster, which also fits with Morathis' perceived backstory elements)

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2 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Greek Theme
its very unlikely that the Greek theme will play a major part. GW is really trying to reinvent their own IPs. For example, TK was discontinued, likely for the reason doesn't have any rights to Egyptian lore. To suddenly take up Greek lore on a new army would be unusual since it would be impossible to protect the IP. I think this army will have its own unique feel with several themes tied together. I would be really surprised if we the releases follow any kind of consistent Greek theme. More than likely its just a fun art style adopted for promotional purposes.

I never bought into that explanation for TKs being cancelled. AoS is still filled to the brim with specific and generic, fantasy and historical elements. Lizardmen, The Empire, regular Elves, Dwarves, and Orks, Vampires, Ghosts, Zombies, Skeletons, Ghouls, Necromancers, Dragons, Chimeras, Griffons, Manticores, the list goes on.

I think it is far more likely TKs (and Brets) were cancelled for a variety of reasons. Besides the handful of kits released in 8th ed, the range was vastly outdated and ugly. The molds were old enough that they had probably started to break down and fail (we have seen problems with molds as new as The End Times within the past couple months). The army was wildly unpopular (several reasons for that in and of itself). And GW probably decided it was simply not worth the cast to renew the molds or redesign the army at the time. It is also worth noting that Nulahmia screams Tomb Kings, and a Necro Sphinx has appeared directly in the fluff for AoS.

As for the themeing of this new elf army, its not just the style of the video, but also every single elf unit dipicted in it. Gorgons, Harpies, Hoplites, and Witch Elves being Maenads.

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10 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

I never bought into that explanation for TKs being cancelled. AoS is still filled to the brim with specific and generic, fantasy and historical elements. Lizardmen, The Empire, regular Elves, Dwarves, and Orks, Vampires, Ghosts, Zombies, Skeletons, Ghouls, Necromancers, Dragons, Chimeras, Griffons, Manticores, the list goes on.

I think it is far more likely TKs (and Brets) were cancelled for a variety of reasons. Besides the handful of kits released in 8th ed, the range was vastly outdated and ugly. The molds were old enough that they had probably started to break down and fail (we have seen problems with molds as new as The End Times within the past couple months). The army was wildly unpopular (several reasons for that in and of itself). And GW probably decided it was simply not worth the cast to renew the molds or redesign the army at the time. It is also worth noting that Nulahmia screams Tomb Kings, and a Necro Sphinx has appeared directly in the fluff for AoS.

As for the themeing of this new elf army, its not just the style of the video, but also every single elf unit dipicted in it. Gorgons, Harpies, Hoplites, and Witch Elves being Maenads.

I personally love the idea of Greek Aelfs, its very different from the Tolkeenite interpretation we are used to from standard fantasy, and it plays very well with an enlightened culture that is both advanced in arts and science while also being filled with deadly warriors, as we traditionally know elves to be. Plus there already are Phoenixes, Hydras, and lots of Lion based stuff going around, so this would be a very cool direction to take them that would also be WAY different than anything else out there currently. Its a good time to play elves!

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1 hour ago, Killax said:

Who cares or stated things work exactly like you describe here? It seems like one hell of an assumption there.
 

Does it seem like a hell of an assumption to you, or did it just go right over your head that it was pretty much a description of what happened during the last season of war campaign and that's the reason the winking emoticon was there....?

I'm not saying it'll happen exactly like that again (let's hope they have learned their lesson) with the next AoS summer campaign however, before  you start assuming that I am... 

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7 hours ago, Killax said:

I really see it as something in their complete own style. As before inspiration can really be drawn from anywhere, which isn't to say that the models actually represent that completely. I agree with you that this is a mix of all things.

However painting things as plate armour is really what we see here. It could have been painted as leather, bamboo etc. I really feel that stating it's Eastern European designed is the same as saying that Slaughterpriests look like Gladiators.... I wouldn't completely dissagree but think AoS does something very new. It's really GW IP that isn't a carbon copy of something else... Which is likely why it's range remained...

Don't think it's that odd even! I mean litterly thousands of years have passed. WFB's Old World is no more and Malekith even is reborn as a completely new entity. Holding a grudge is one thing but being dead and reborn to start anew with hate for each other would actually be odd.

As before it's clear to me that Malerion and Morathi don't trust each other but it isn't like before. Likewise again, every Order Allegiance has it's own agenda. The big co-op was there to drive out Chaos from their Realms, which they succesfully did. 

One thing we can conclude is that Grand Allegiances work because they have have more distrist to other GA's than within their own. But these Allegiances would logically also only appear if there is a real need for it. This is actually a good reflection of real live politicial allegiances too ;) 

Tyrion has more reason to be cheesed off at teclis than malerion considering how the end times decided to run with the story (which was pretty bad). Teclis had his daughter sacrificed to juice up Nagash in a bid that failed and so was worthless. And then he went full mad dictator and went about murdering elves. Malekith was, on the other hand, vindicated as the one true king and the past defender of ulthuan

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All of those personal WH conflicts are irrelevant on AoS so far. Most of the motivations to action in WH characters are lost. In a sense, the gods of the mortal realms are not the heroes with the same names from WH. There is of course some continuity; their appearance and simbology are generally maintained. Some very abstract features of their hero-persona are maintained. But they are also changed in a way that makes their motivations completely different. Tyrion is blind from light’s influence; he is jointed to his brother who sees from him. Malelith is an incorporeal being of pure shadow. He is still the son of Morathi and Aenarion, but his relationship to both and to his ancient race is different. Alarielle for instance isn’t anymore the woman elf desired by all. She is a being of pure life whose sole motivation is life flourishment. Just as nature in a seasonal setting, she directly changes with seasons. Old feuds and friendship are of little significance for her.

Just as in most polytheistic pantheons, the gods do have antropomorphic appearance and motivations, yet those are very much consumed by what they represent as gods (shadow, light, life, etc.).  Just like the old elven gods: they existed and acted by in a way that was determined by fate, tempest, creation, life, the hunt or war/destruction. Dont think of Tyrion, Malerion or Sigmar as heroes with mortal motivations, but rather as you would think of Asuryan, Khaine, etc.

 

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1 hour ago, stratigo said:

Malekith was, on the other hand, vindicated as the one true king and the past defender of ulthuan

Which made no sense as he was the one who pretty much ruined everything for the Elves in the first place.  Even if he was a rightful king, the guys who did not pick him were right for doing so. 

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@WoollyMammoth thanks for pulling together the Rumour Engine pictures, and the interesting discussion. Contrary to you, I think the mention of escaping a god (slithering out of their mouth from memory?) indicates a definite anti-Slaanesh aspect. Still different perspectives are a good thing.

In terms of Grand Alliance, I firmly believe that they will be Order.

My reasoning:

- In the Age of Myth there were no alliances, only the grand pantheon of Sigmar. Subsequently Chaos started to work their way in - so at that point we had Pantheon v Chaos. Over time the Pantheon shatters and Sigmar is betrayed by Gorkamorka (Destruction) and Nagash (Death).  With the closing of the gates of Azyr we are left with Chaos, Death and Destruction. When the gates open we have Sigmar attempting to impose Order on the Mortal Realms, as opposed to the other 3 Grand Alliances, but particularly in opposition to Chaos. So to my mind Order is less about methods or organisation and more a broad question of whether a race / people / god are aligned with Sigmar as opposed to other primary forces

- It is clear that the new Shadow Queen is aligned to the rebuilding of society (mention of being responsible for civilization), that she/it escaped the Dark Prince and the art supports a strong anti Slaanesh (hence anti Chaos) vibe,  there is no support for alignment with the goals of Nagash or Gorkamorka, and the mention of a rightful place in the pantheon to me further supports the intent being that the Shadow Queen is aligned at a high level with Sigmar's goals. Alignement with Sigmar = alignment with Order.

- Order does not mean nice. We have a recent short story on the Malign Portents website called "To Excel" which shows Stormcast preparing to wipe a village out on the basis of potential infection. The recent Callis and Toll short story shows that humans basically aligned with Order are still quite happy to kill each other. Fyreslayers have been written about as willing to serve basically anybody for the right price. Azyrheim has been purged at least once - who did that? Scourge Privateers are absolutely slavers, pirates and criminals. The Kharadron Overlords are not fighting due to some commitment to 'good' - they are fighting because they see it as the most profitable option. So you can be unpleasant, greedy, murderous, and still a member of the Order alliance. 

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1 hour ago, Turgol said:

All of those personal WH conflicts are irrelevant on AoS so far. Most of the motivations to action in WH characters are lost. In a sense, the gods of the mortal realms are not the heroes with the same names from WH. There is of course some continuity; their appearance and simbology are generally maintained. Some very abstract features of their hero-persona are maintained. But they are also changed in a way that makes their motivations completely different. Tyrion is blind from light’s influence; he is jointed to his brother who sees from him. Malelith is an incorporeal being of pure shadow. He is still the son of Morathi and Aenarion, but his relationship to both and to his ancient race is different. Alarielle for instance isn’t anymore the woman elf desired by all. She is a being of pure life whose sole motivation is life flourishment. Just as nature in a seasonal setting, she directly changes with seasons. Old feuds and friendship are of little significance for her.

Just as in most polytheistic pantheons, the gods do have antropomorphic appearance and motivations, yet those are very much consumed by what they represent as gods (shadow, light, life, etc.).  Just like the old elven gods: they existed and acted by in a way that was determined by fate, tempest, creation, life, the hunt or war/destruction. Dont think of Tyrion, Malerion or Sigmar as heroes with mortal motivations, but rather as you would think of Asuryan, Khaine, etc.

 

 

Except all the gods all act the same as they did before. They are all motivated by the same things. They are all the same people.

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