Summoning and Allegiances, Oil and Water?!

[DeGriggs]

Alright, I've asked around my local meta and Ive gotten no real answers:

 

Let's say I make a 2000 point Soulblight army with 500 points reserved for summoning. Now rules as I know it now, this constitutes as a "Soulblight Army" (and when there are specific Soulblight bonuses they will apply). Now let's say I summon a unit of skeletons throughout the game, do I keep my Soulblight status? 

 

Really the question comes down to when allegiances are evaluated and chosen. 

 

What are your thoughts?!

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

There's nothing to pick apart here. This is fine and perfectly acceptable in rules and fluff.

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[WoollyMammoth]

Yes thematically a vampire can raise a bunch of skeletons. And that vampire would have an allegiance to Nagash/Death summoning various kinds of Nagash's troops. A vampire with an allegiance to Soulblight is a very particular vampire who only trusts in his vampire and beast kin, and would not summon since he has an entire battalion of fierce Blood Knights at his disposal and prefers to use his magic to protect and support his troops rather than summon some dirty skeletons. A vampire who likes to reanimate the dead is not faithful to his soulblight bretherin and so they are unlikely to follow him/her in a large group. As such this vampire would have to summon lots of skeletons & zombies to fill the ranks. 

I don't think you can claim a faction allegiance if everything your summon pool does not have the proper keyword. When we do get soulblight allegiance, there might be a spell in there (like raise dead in the lore of vampires) which allows it. 

[WoollyMammoth]

You have to choose an allegiance that's all their is to it.

Faction Allegiance works like 8th where you are totally limited to one faction and bringing in another would be akin to summoning demons in a wood elf army. It's no different than summoning skeletons in a soulblight army - it's just weird because GA:Death is basically VC split up for no reason. Eventually well get new death models to fill out the ranks of each faction. I mean, they have to release a new death model eventually right?

Grand Alliance Allegiance works more like how AoS has been so far (open play). You can bring a slann with your sylvaneth, you can summon daemons with your chaos mortals, you can summon skeletons with your soulbight. But you can not claim faction traits and bonuses.

If you claim Soulblight you cannot summon skeletons (but I would let you anyway because I want you to have fun).

[Shane]

Considering the concenus was that summonjng has been nerfed, to try and further nerf it against what is written isn't on. And it is such an obvious thing to try that if GW havent directly said you can't, then it is clear that you can.

You are taking a tactical gamble by using summoning. To use summoning you are making a tactical decision as to what can be the most effective and when. It is intended as a wild card. 

As Tzeentch why can I not summoning able unit regardless of subfaction? Why can I not summon ghosts or Khorne daemons?

[RuneBrush]

23 hours ago, Turragor said:

The keyword restriction on the unit and wizard warscrolls already covers things like a seraphon army summoning a bloodthirster right?

This limitation is actually on the Summon spell for the Bloodthirster (and all Chaos Daemons) - it's specifies Chaos Wizards gain the spell rather than just Wizards.  This does allow you to mix between gods though.

I think some of the restrictions will be self imposed - if I use my Daemonsmith to add a Lord of Change to my Bloodbound: a) it would be rubbish fluff wise and b) it wouldn't synergise with things like my Bloodsecrator or Blood Stoker.  I'm sure you will get people summoning units that don't gel quite right, but I don't think they'll gain the most out of them.

[mmimzie]

Personally i'm no fan, but as far as i can tell summoning is only limited by the summoning as @RuneBrush has stated. To say otherwise would be abit over the top.  I'm always a rules are rules kinda guy. 

[WoollyMammoth]

A lot of people actually have hated summoning from day 1. Everyone I know that has actually played consistently has hated summoning and got into playing only because I offered a way to play without adding free units like this. I'm sure there are some communities that were into summoning but not here. Here there was a small group that tried to have summon-off games and quickly grew bored of the hobby because it just comes down to who takes the first turn and summons double the army in your face.

I have seen some pro-summoning arguments but so far in my experience (being very active locally and on the VC and Seraphon forums for a long time) I would say there is actually only a small group of dedicated summoners and the community at large - especially people excited about getting back into the hobby with the GH (and generally all the people for whom Matched Play was designed) are very happy to not have unrestricted summoning. 

In general if you hate the new summoning rules, you should probably be playing open. You can adapt open to add points or adapt matched to not have summoning restrictions, you just have to have other people who want to play that way. If it were truly that most people do not like the summoning restrictions, then large sections of the community will be playing with unrestricted summoning in matched play. From my experience I really don't expect to see this happening, but who knows. 

Personally I don't think summoning out of list/allegiance restrictions will be considered standard play.  I think with the details of the handbook or through the FAQ these kinds of things will be made non-standard - but your community can adopt a house rule regardless. Whether or not it will seem 'legal' in the handbook I don't have a problem with it if my opponents really think this is fun. In my experience people trying to create some sort of exploit are relying too much on that exploit and it actually puts them at a disadvantage.

If you are clearly trying to exploit .. well, I'm going to take the gloves off when we play a game so you better be ready for the pain. For one example I might have 4 auto-dispel wizards, or I might have 10 blood knights charging you from 26" or longer into your wizards face on turn 1. Typically I like to build my list to match what my opponent likes to do, I hate winning all the time, really I just want to enjoy the models in a fair game. But If you are trying to exploit just to win games, I'm going to counter your list (Unless your models are painted beautiful, then I might let you tromp me just so I can watch your models do it). These kind of games are perfectly fine in my opinion, as long as both sides know what they are in for. Just don't do this stuff to new players trying to learn the game please.
 

[Andreas]

I have to defend degriggs here. This is obviously not an exploit from his part since he can just take 30 zombies, get some great bonuses and be done with it. He seems to do it for fluff reasons since I can only see this making his army a bit weaker.

I think the real question will be when someone will have a Gaunt Summoner leading some Kairic Acolutes without being able to summon some tzeentch deamons and that will suck. Lets not go down that path.

[WoollyMammoth]

There is a clear divide between chaos mortals and chaos daemons. In 8th, a chaos mortal could not summon a daemon and a daemon could not summon a mortal. Mortals were allegiance "Warriors of Chaos" and daemons were allegiance "Chaos Daemons" and they did not mix.

I'm not saying I have a problem with it, just stating the facts.

At this point, the only reason why you want an allegiance is to have an easier time with batteline. At launch, the the best course to go is a full alliance list and reap the benefits of the full alliance allegaince. 

If you talk about a vampire summoning skeletons, or a Chaos Mage summoning pink horrors, it seems silly, but look at other examples. If slann mage priest is travelling with a group of Sylvaneth, they are not aligned to Sylvaneth, but working together for the greater good of Order. The types of spells, say poisonous vines - well sylvanth may be immune but serphon might get hurt. Sylvaneth can travel through the trees, and leave the seraphon in the dust?

I would not be surprised if, when the allegiance details come out, mortal arcanites have a spell to summon pink horrors, or flamers, etc. Lets wait and see what is going to happen before we judge.

In the meantime, If you want your soulblight to summon skeletons, have at it. But you must have a DEATH allegiance and you can't claim blood knights as battleline units. That's just how it is (unless you make a local house rule). You can still have blood knights, and summon skeletons, but you are going to have to throw in 3 units of 10 zombies on the frontline to make due. 

Meanwhile:

A. do you have to build your full list prior to summoning anything, or can you just leave an empty pool of points to summon whatever you want?

B. Can you summon models which do not match the allegiance you have chosen?

C. If you can only have 2 behemoths, can you have two on the board and summon a third?

D. If you need, say 2 battline units - can you put them aside to summon or must they start the game on the board?

Warhammer Age of Sigmar Hey,
We'll have a Quick FAQ ready alongside the release on the 23rd that will cover these. Thanks for the clarity of your questions though, we'll make sure these get to the rules team.



 

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[Andreas]

30 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

There is a clear divide between chaos mortals and chaos daemons. In 8th, a chaos mortal could not summon a daemon and a daemon could not summon a mortal. Mortals were allegiance "Warriors of Chaos" and daemons were allegiance "Chaos Daemons" and they did not mix.

I'm not saying I have a problem with it, just stating the facts.

At this point, the only reason why you want an allegiance is to have an easier time with batteline. At launch, the the best course to go is a full alliance list and reap the benefits of the full alliance allegaince. 

If you talk about a vampire summoning skeletons, or a Chaos Mage summoning pink horrors, it seems silly, but look at other examples. If slann mage priest is travelling with a group of Sylvaneth, they are not aligned to Sylvaneth, but working together for the greater good of Order. The types of spells, say poisonous vines - well sylvanth may be immune but serphon might get hurt. Sylvaneth can travel through the trees, and leave the seraphon in the dust?

I would not be surprised if, when the allegiance details come out, mortal arcanites have a spell to summon pink horrors, or flamers, etc. Lets wait and see what is going to happen before we judge.

In the meantime, If you want your soulblight to summon skeletons, have at it. But you must have a DEATH allegiance and you can't claim blood knights as battleline units. That's just how it is (unless you make a local house rule). You can still have blood knights, and summon skeletons, but you are going to have to throw in 3 units of 10 zombies on the frontline to make due. 

Meanwhile:

A. do you have to build your full list prior to summoning anything, or can you just leave an empty pool of points to summon whatever you want?

B. Can you summon models which do not match the allegiance you have chosen?

C. If you can only have 2 behemoths, can you have two on the board and summon a third?

D. If you need, say 2 battline units - can you put them aside to summon or must they start the game on the board?

Warhammer Age of Sigmar Hey,
We'll have a Quick FAQ ready alongside the release on the 23rd that will cover these. Thanks for the clarity of your questions though, we'll make sure these get to the rules team.



 

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Warhammer 8th is a different game and I remember a different time and game when all chaos was just chaos. ?

I cant see you mixing a slann and some sylvaneth and get any other kind of allegiance than Order. I dont get your example of an exploit or I what did you mean with that example.

If my rotbringer army list is:

Morbidex and three units blight kings plus some points in reserv there is nothing in the leaked rules that states that my allegiance change when some nurgling appears. That would be a house rule not the other way around. (Can some one with the book please confirm this).

But house rules are fine here is an example of one:

If you want your soulblight to summon skeletons, have at it. But you must have a DEATH.