Tournament Builds and How to Counter Them

[shadowgra]

Plaguetouched warband

What it does- 

Is a battalion that allows Nurgle Mortals to have a -1 to hit in combat and have chances to do mortal wounds back in combat (only for multiples of 7 units). usually plays for objectives, using mobs of marauders to swamp the board, knights to be a fast tanky hammer, bk+ spume for teleporting, sayl for teleporting, chaos warriors for a mega-anvil... it is a flexible list with a ton of choices. almost every plaguetouched plays with harbinger of decay, that basically gives 5++ fnp to nurgle mortals. is a incredibly resilient list that can tank on an objective and survive any damage in order to earn points for the team.

How to counter-

If you have really good shooting you could try to take down the harbinger. he  gives an effective 50% increase in hp to every unit within 7". Tho i suggest you to do this only if you have the power to do so as he is incredibly tanky for a 160 points hero. don't bother targetting him with spells cause he ignore every spell on a 4+. 

what you should do: place your units on objective sooner than him. hardly plaguetouched have the damage to kill a resilient unit until is too late. DON'T THROW your hammers at the warriors/knights/marauders cause they will tank everything you send at them. or do it if you have a way to make them run at battleshock. if you can kill the mages then he has no control over the wheel and his powerful magic. use that to your advantage since he can no longer modify the steps. if he plays sayl kill him as soon as possible. he is far too strong with teleporting and even at turn 5 can make you lose games. with a -1 to hit almost everything in nurgle hits like pillows.

 

hope that it helped!

[JamesT]

23 hours ago, PJetski said:

I think that the Lord Ordinator list is not a serious contender. It's just another GA:Order shooting list - we've seen stronger versions of the same thing when Hurricanums and Kurnoth spam were all the rage. The entire list revolves around him and he's way too easy to kill since he can't take a Mirrorshield because you don't have Stormcast Allegiance. 

It is strictly worse at shooting and far easier to disrupt than a Thunderquake or an Aetherstrike and has none of the movement tricks and utility that those lists can bring to the table.

I would love it if somebody could prove me wrong...

I think a reason for the Ordinator list being better than the previous incarnations of shooty order lists is that it has two distinctives:

1) It ignores LoS. There's no hiding from those long range, -2, d6 damage shots. That's huge because it means that you can't try and play a waiting game and spring for objectives and can't really protect your units with terrain. It also means that, if they have LoS block on their side of the board, the only way to deal with it is to get close enough to charge/shoot around. 

2) It is a single infantry-sized model that makes the list work. Honestly, a Hurricanum can probably block LoS for him to hide behind. 

 

The list definitely works best with more cover, as it simply restricts your movement while he reigns down firepower on you. I don't think it will ever go 5-0 at a GT, but I can see it going 4-1 and/or taking out other serious contenders

[Mayple]

Any thoughts on how to counter a balewind croak that sets himself up defensively? I.E: 26-28 or so inches away from your shooting units. On average rolls, with access to rerolls to top it off, Kroak is hitting most of the board with his aoe spell, and can follow it up with pinpoint comets and arcane bolt to finish things off. Anything with 6 or less wounds (most heroes, support characters, siege engines, etc) will be at risk the first time this happens, and with good placement, Kroak is completely safe from retaliation for at least one turn, and can keep annihilating your army every turn. 

Stormcast, Skyfires, Kurnoth hunters and such are not answers I'm looking for, as I'm curious to the 'How to counter it' and not the 'What to counter it with'

[PJetski]

4 hours ago, Mayple said:

Any thoughts on how to counter a balewind croak that sets himself up defensively? I.E: 26-28 or so inches away from your shooting units. On average rolls, with access to rerolls to top it off, Kroak is hitting most of the board with his aoe spell, and can follow it up with pinpoint comets and arcane bolt to finish things off. Anything with 6 or less wounds (most heroes, support characters, siege engines, etc) will be at risk the first time this happens, and with good placement, Kroak is completely safe from retaliation for at least one turn, and can keep annihilating your army every turn. 

Stormcast, Skyfires, Kurnoth hunters and such are not answers I'm looking for, as I'm curious to the 'How to counter it' and not the 'What to counter it with'

You should be far more concerned about the 1 drop list that deploys Kroak off the table and deep strikes him into play...

[Mayple]

5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You should be far more concerned about the 1 drop list that deploys Kroak off the table and deep strikes him into play...

If he deep strikes, then he's open to being dispelled and can be shot at. It is the defensive Kroak I'm concerned about, not the offensive one (Although that does sound rather nasty, so good note) 

[JamesT]

11 hours ago, Mayple said:

Any thoughts on how to counter a balewind croak that sets himself up defensively? I.E: 26-28 or so inches away from your shooting units. On average rolls, with access to rerolls to top it off, Kroak is hitting most of the board with his aoe spell, and can follow it up with pinpoint comets and arcane bolt to finish things off. Anything with 6 or less wounds (most heroes, support characters, siege engines, etc) will be at risk the first time this happens, and with good placement, Kroak is completely safe from retaliation for at least one turn, and can keep annihilating your army every turn. 

Stormcast, Skyfires, Kurnoth hunters and such are not answers I'm looking for, as I'm curious to the 'How to counter it' and not the 'What to counter it with'

Good question, and that's a tough army. It was my toughest matchup all of last season for ITC. Here are some typical things I tried to do that aren't necessarily unique to tzeentch:

 

If he has the astrolith bearer, kill him. This guy gives him +1 to cast and an extra 8" to the spell range. So taking him out early can reduce the bubble effect by 8" for the rest of the game which is huge. 

His list is usually low on numbers (or at least, my local opponent ran him with the temple guard formation and between 20-30 skinks). So if you have access to mortal wounds, run them into his temple guard and try to wipe out his infantry and win on objectives. If you don't have mortal wounds or shooting, then his guys are just straight up better in melee in you, so that's a rough match. Best bet would be try to set up speed bump units that hold off the slow advance, send units in different directions, bubble wrap, and work that angle. With the Hero phase being his, shooting phase being his if you don't have shooting, and charge phase being his since temple guard never die and kill everything, your only option left is movement, so play the objectives and don't sacrifice units if you don't have to. You'll need the numbers...

 

I hope that helps! Without knowing your army or his exact composition it's a little harder, especially since some armies don't stand much of a chance against kroaknado

[Mayple]

27 minutes ago, JamesT said:

Good question, and that's a tough army. It was my toughest matchup all of last season for ITC. Here are some typical things I tried to do that aren't necessarily unique to tzeentch:

 

If he has the astrolith bearer, kill him. This guy gives him +1 to cast and an extra 8" to the spell range. So taking him out early can reduce the bubble effect by 8" for the rest of the game which is huge. 

His list is usually low on numbers (or at least, my local opponent ran him with the temple guard formation and between 20-30 skinks). So if you have access to mortal wounds, run them into his temple guard and try to wipe out his infantry and win on objectives. If you don't have mortal wounds or shooting, then his guys are just straight up better in melee in you, so that's a rough match. Best bet would be try to set up speed bump units that hold off the slow advance, send units in different directions, bubble wrap, and work that angle. With the Hero phase being his, shooting phase being his if you don't have shooting, and charge phase being his since temple guard never die and kill everything, your only option left is movement, so play the objectives and don't sacrifice units if you don't have to. You'll need the numbers...

 

I hope that helps! Without knowing your army or his exact composition it's a little harder, especially since some armies don't stand much of a chance against kroaknado

Good advice on focusing the Astrolith bearer I got so deer-eyed on Kroak that I completely forgot about that tiny little fellow next to him. 

In my particular matchup, I was well-equipped to deal with everything else in his army, but I was never in a position to utilize that, as he pulled them all back towards his table edge, and let Kroak do all the fighting. He used Kroak + Thunderhost(quake? the one where they're extra tanky and regenerate) + a few skinks and the astrolith bearer. I ran a Skryre gunline with chokelung+arkspark, using allied clanrats as chaff, and gutter runners as flankers. If it came to a melee, I was in an ideal position to put a +2 on my Shockfist Stormfiends, and would have torn just about anything to shreds, but as I said, he pulled backwards instead of forward.

The scenario was Scorched Earth. He gave me first turn (which was my fault, as I mucked up my own deployment count, I would have been able to deploy first and would have given him the first turn, which really wouldn't have changed much, as Kroak was sitting off in a corner, and I could have put a few shots at his beasts if I double turned him, but still lose to Kroak) - and I moved in anticipation of getting double-turned, so I moved defensively, with the exception of my doomwheel and gutter runners, who rolled towards and appeared on his left flank respectively, advanced my chaff just in front of my flank objectives and prepared for a Kroak deepstrike. He then failed his Kroak teleportation, forgot that he had a reroll, and moved everything else -backwards- Leaving skinks behind on the objectives while his beasts hugged the movement+shooting distance line between my artillery/mortars and himself, making it impossible for me to hit anything important unless I doubleturned him (which couldn't be done, as he had second turn) - One of his bastiladons took some potshots at some of my clanrats, to no big effect, since I expected him to hit that flank and had inspired them previously. 

Second turn, I got the first turn again, so didn't get doubled. As I realised he was moving everything away from me, I started pulling forward with everything I had, shooting what I could, which was two units of skinks. Killed most of those. Ran a doomwheel further up the left flank, his weakest flank, and together with the gutter runners they killed what little he had left there. By the end of my turn there were only about 3-4 skinks left, but the gutter runners got wiped. The doomwheel was in an ideal position to roll over and burn it on my following turn, from there, I only had to hold my own and victory was assured. 

Then Kroak showed up on his side of the field, dead centre, and killed absolutely everything of importance with his two spells, and finished off the doomwheel with an arcane bolt. All the weapon teams got wiped between his aoe spell and comets, and both the warplightning cannons were down at half health. The only things that weren't hit was both warlock engineers, who were hugging the table edge, and the damaged clanrats and supporting acolytes on my right flank that was simply too far away. Everything else got hit hard.

He doubleturned, and I conceded, as it would take me two turns to roll into shooting range provided my artillery even lasted that long  The most annoying part about it was that he failed his first teleportation. Had he succeeded, I would have known that the game was over a lot sooner, and wouldn't have bothered with the meticulous planning and movement. When your opponent flips the table, it doesn't really matter how close you were to a checkmate


tl;dr: My entire army got soloed by Kroak.

[JamesT]

5 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Good advice on focusing the Astrolith bearer I got so deer-eyed on Kroak that I completely forgot about that tiny little fellow next to him. 

In my particular matchup, I was well-equipped to deal with everything else in his army, but I was never in a position to utilize that, as he pulled them all back towards his table edge, and let Kroak do all the fighting. He used Kroak + Thunderhost(quake? the one where they're extra tanky and regenerate) + a few skinks and the astrolith bearer. I ran a Skryre gunline with chokelung+arkspark, using allied clanrats as chaff, and gutter runners as flankers. If it came to a melee, I was in an ideal position to put a +2 on my Shockfist Stormfiends, and would have torn just about anything to shreds, but as I said, he pulled backwards instead of forward.

The scenario was Scorched Earth. He gave me first turn (which was my fault, as I mucked up my own deployment count, I would have been able to deploy first and would have given him the first turn, which really wouldn't have changed much, as Kroak was sitting off in a corner, and I could have put a few shots at his beasts if I double turned him, but still lose to Kroak) - and I moved in anticipation of getting double-turned, so I moved defensively, with the exception of my doomwheel and gutter runners, who rolled towards and appeared on his left flank respectively, advanced my chaff just in front of my flank objectives and prepared for a Kroak deepstrike. He then failed his Kroak teleportation, forgot that he had a reroll, and moved everything else -backwards- Leaving skinks behind on the objectives while his beasts hugged the movement+shooting distance line between my artillery/mortars and himself, making it impossible for me to hit anything important unless I doubleturned him (which couldn't be done, as he had second turn) - One of his bastiladons took some potshots at some of my clanrats, to no big effect, since I expected him to hit that flank and had inspired them previously. 

Second turn, I got the first turn again, so didn't get doubled. As I realised he was moving everything away from me, I started pulling forward with everything I had, shooting what I could, which was two units of skinks. Killed most of those. Ran a doomwheel further up the left flank, his weakest flank, and together with the gutter runners they killed what little he had left there. By the end of my turn there were only about 3-4 skinks left, but the gutter runners got wiped. The doomwheel was in an ideal position to roll over and burn it on my following turn, from there, I only had to hold my own and victory was assured. 

Then Kroak showed up on his side of the field, dead centre, and killed absolutely everything of importance with his two spells, and finished off the doomwheel with an arcane bolt. All the weapon teams got wiped between his aoe spell and comets, and both the warplightning cannons were down at half health. The only things that weren't hit was both warlock engineers, who were hugging the table edge, and the damaged clanrats and supporting acolytes on my right flank that was simply too far away. Everything else got hit hard.

He doubleturned, and I conceded, as it would take me two turns to roll into shooting range provided my artillery even lasted that long  The most annoying part about it was that he failed his first teleportation. Had he succeeded, I would have known that the game was over a lot sooner, and wouldn't have bothered with the meticulous planning and movement. When your opponent flips the table, it doesn't really matter how close you were to a checkmate


tl;dr: My entire army got soloed by Kroak.

Whelp, Kroak is perfectly suited to wreck weapon teams. The poisened wind globadiers and stuff can dent the astrolith bearer well, but it doesn't sound like you have the teleport battalion that would send the stormfiends up at him. The doomwheel and stuff are suboptimal choices for what they do, and you may be better off going for some warplock jezzails or something else to try and snipe serious threats and provide cover for your advance.

 

Yeah, my first game against Kroak I lost. And that was with me putting the Changeling in his deployment zone, going first, stealing his spell(ROFL), and killing 2-3 temple guard from 4 units and then wounding all his heroes. His face was priceless. But then he snipped 4 of my heroes with the bubble, killed like 40 or so daemons, and got control of the center of the board

[Mayple]

1 minute ago, JamesT said:

Whelp, Kroak is perfectly suited to wreck weapon teams. The poisened wind globadiers and stuff can dent the astrolith bearer well, but it doesn't sound like you have the teleport battalion that would send the stormfiends up at him. The doomwheel and stuff are suboptimal choices for what they do, and you may be better off going for some warplock jezzails or something else to try and snipe serious threats and provide cover for your advance.

 

Yeah, my first game against Kroak I lost. And that was with me putting the Changeling in his deployment zone, going first, stealing his spell(ROFL), and killing 2-3 temple guard from 4 units and then wounding all his heroes. His face was priceless. But then he snipped 4 of my heroes with the bubble, killed like 40 or so daemons, and got control of the center of the board

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of Gautfyre Skorch, due to how easy it is to counter-deploy it, but it does hit the list of things that would have gotten the job done here. The doomwheel, while not ideal, is mainly an inclusion in case of the scenario where objectives can only be captured by heroes/behemoths. Being a behemoth, it can get the job done without risking your otherwise squishy squishy warlocks that would much rather camp back with their respective enginecovens, and while the Arch-warlock is better equipped, I felt it was wise to have a backup plan. Outside of that scenario, it serves as a high mobility flanking tool with some bonus pew pew. Mostly there for mobility purposes, and the damage is nice when it gets to drop some. The gutter runners have seen better days, and I'm sure those points can be spent better elsewhere. In this particular matchup, they were one of the few units that saw any combat at all, so they at least had that going for them

This was my third game against a Balewind Kroak, but the first where he teleported defensively instead of offensively. The other times, I've accepted my losses, dispelled what I can, and then promptly shot him off the map. 

He recently returned from a tournament where he tried to teleport offensively against Khorne, and had his Balewind auto-dispelled, leaving Kroak for dead in charging distance of a bunch of -very- angry Khornates, which I'm sure is the source of this newfound tactical wisdom. 

Great use of the Changeling! I've been considering adding one to my general chaos Skaven army just to have the ability to mess with the opponent like that. Heavily converted and Skaven-fied, of course, but it does have the fluffiest of rules

[JamesT]

8 hours ago, Mayple said:

Great use of the Changeling! I've been considering adding one to my general chaos Skaven army just to have the ability to mess with the opponent like that. Heavily converted and Skaven-fied, of course, but it does have the fluffiest of rules

1

Well one of the main things the changeling has going for him in that scenario is that you can use Destiny Dice to auto-dispel his nova power. If you're taking him as allies you can't  

If you're just going to use Tzeentch for allies, the changeling wouldn't quite get the mileage out of the 140pts

[Sheriff]

tldr:

• Tzeentch - shoot the big bird
• Murderhost - chaff wall, shoot the battalion hero
• Vanguard wing - shoot the prosecutors
• Kharadrons - turtle, hide heroes, counter once shot
• Fyreslayers - shoot the heros
• Lizards - no easy solution... focus specific units til dead, be super smart
• Kunnin Ruk - shoot the heroes
• Sylvaneth - shoot the biggest trees, counter-attack charging trees
• Stormcast raptors - shoot the raptors, kill the raptors with mortal wounds
• Nurgle - shoot the little heroes
• Death - shoot the heroes

 

[hughwyeth]

19 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

tldr:

• Tzeentch - shoot the big bird
• Murderhost - chaff wall, shoot the battalion hero
• Vanguard wing - shoot the prosecutors
• Kharadrons - turtle, hide heroes, counter once shot
• Fyreslayers - shoot the heros
• Lizards - no easy solution... focus specific units til dead, be super smart
• Kunnin Ruk - shoot the heroes
• Sylvaneth - shoot the biggest trees, counter-attack charging trees
• Shoot the raptors, kill the raptors with mortal wounds
• Nurgle - shoot the little heroes
• Death - shoot the heroes

 

So a TL;DR for AoS is "kill the heroes".

[JamesT]

Sorry this hasn't been updated in awhile guys. Finals are happening, and right after that I am going on a four week vacation in Europe! So I won't be on here much  

 

When I get back I fully intend to add to this builds from DoK, Nurgle, Idoneth, Wanderers, another Tzeentch build or two, and round it off with the arkonaut KO build. Cya guys in a little over a month!

[JamesT]

Ok, I just got back from Europe yesterday! Managed to squeeze a visit to warhammer world in :)

 

With 2.0 hitting at the end of the month, I'll be waiting to update this until that's here. I'll get DoK and Deepkin started since they are likely to remain the least changed because they were written with the new edition in mind. Can't wait for the new edition!

[GrandAdmiralAutumn]

This is a great resource, can we try updating it for 2nd edition?