Updating Ironjawz

[PlasticCraic]

2 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

New faction focus for IJ. Kinda saw that coming but i hope there is more.

One of the many, many problems IJ has is thats all the units are overcosted. 

Maw-Krudsha coming down could be good and might be auto-include no matter the list...maybe even big green himself

Brutes need a points drop to about 160 to make up for easy it is to wipe them with bravery.

Ardboyz are possibly the worst battleline in the gsme for their current points when compared to similar priced and even cheaper battlelines so they better come down to the 100ish pts area. 

Megaboss and Warchanter are too slow to keep up with Ironfist brutes. 

The Weirdnob suffers from hurting himself and costs too much as well. He needs to come down to 100pts or his warscroll needs to be tweaked to allow two casts. Id say the new magic might help but as it stands he already has 4 spells to choose from with one attempt.

Yeah I'd agree with the WNS coming down, he is chronically over costed for a 1-spell caster.  The array of spells available to him is not the issue, it's the single cast.  (As well as a couple of other issues on his warscroll, such as the self-mutilation and ridiculous casting value).

100 points for 10 Ardboyz might be going a bit far but they definitely deserve to come down imo.  When you look at Tzaangors for the exactly same points, it makes me cry a little green tear.  One thing I've never liked is that the unit size ranges from 10 to 30, whereas Liberators range from 5 to 30.  That's just straight up unfair.  They get the list building flexibility of cheap Battleline filler scaling right up to full Deathstar, whereas we are hamstrung.  I'd like to see some consistency in the scaling of minimum and maximum unit sizes - but I'd welcome the opportunity to take units of 5 Ardboyz as much as a straight drop.

[Malakithe]

I think 100 is fair when compared to every other battleline in the game. St 100pts it would bring them more inline with stuff like the new elves, bonsplitterz, those nasty vulkite berserkers and even skellies when maxed out.

[PlasticCraic]

That being said, there is a whole world of possibilities in front of us.  I'm pretty excited to see what a Destruction spell lore and multiple Maw Krushas can do for our mortal wound output.

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

New faction focus for IJ. Kinda saw that coming but i hope there is more.

One of the many, many problems IJ has is thats all the units are overcosted. 

Maw-Krudsha coming down could be good and might be auto-include no matter the list...maybe even big green himself

Brutes need a points drop to about 160 to make up for easy it is to wipe them with bravery.

Ardboyz are possibly the worst battleline in the gsme for their current points when compared to similar priced and even cheaper battlelines so they better come down to the 100ish pts area. 

Megaboss and Warchanter are too slow to keep up with Ironfist brutes. 

The Weirdnob suffers from hurting himself and costs too much as well. He needs to come down to 100pts or his warscroll needs to be tweaked to allow two casts. Id say the new magic might help but as it stands he already has 4 spells to choose from with one attempt.

Ardboyz at 100 points would be the toughest unit in the game by an enormous margin.  20 wounds with a 4+ save and a 6++.... For 100 points.  I'm guessing 160/400 for them, but 140/360 isn't out of the realm of possibility even though they'd be terrifying at that cost.

Brutes at 160 I could see.  I think they would be strong at that cost but probably not OP.  

Weirdnob at his current points isn't bad if the majority of other units get reductions and he gains access to the new spells.

 

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Richelieu said:

Ardboyz at 100 points would be the toughest unit in the game by an enormous margin.  20 wounds with a 4+ save and a 6++.... For 100 points.  I'm guessing 160/400 for them, but 140/360 isn't out of the realm of possibility even though they'd be terrifying at that cost.

You clearly never seen Vulkite Berzerkers. At max strength they are cheaper, hit harder, and are faaaaar more tanky then Ardboyz. At minimum strength Ardboyz would be marginally on par with Liberators

[Richelieu]

9 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

You clearly never seen Vulkite Berzerkers. At max strength they are cheaper, hit harder, and are faaaaar more tanky then Ardboyz. At minimum strength Ardboyz would be marginally on par with Liberators

At 100 points Ardboyz would be cheaper than vulkites and have Double the amount of wounds.  They would have nearly double the offensive output of liberators and double the number of wounds at the expense of...rerolling saves of one.  No reasonable argument can be made for a unit of ten ardboyz costing 100 points.  You do understand they come in units of ten right?  

[Malakithe]

Minimum yes but im talking about max units. Taking minimum units of Ardboyz is useless since everything is battleline and sub max units of Ardboyz dont really do anything aside from being super expensive wounds that just stand around.

[Malakithe]

Perhaps though with the points drops plus whatever this command point system is and new magic IJ could move up a bit

[Sangfroid]

At 140 points 10 Ardboyz would become usable, the problem at the moment is for 180 you can just have 5 Brutes instead (who are better than 10 Ardboyz for most purposes) the same situation was had when 3 pigs were 180 now at 140 I almost always have 2 units in every list. Pop Ardboyz to 140 and suddenly it’s a choice again between them and pigs at the movement 3 pigs over 10 Ardboyz almost every time. 

Brutes will stay at 180 bravery aside they are costed correctly and we do now have tools to deal with this so can’t moan too much (#gamerscanalwaysmoanitsthelaw)

i really want to see an elite unit of foot troops a 4-6 wound bigger brute that fulfill a more tanky roll and or increase bravery (ive mentioned this idea ages ago in other threads) ignore rend or 3+ with a 5+ save after save. Something we can push forward and hold the line. Using deepkin eels and an example a dual kit with huge siege shields as one option (ignore rend or ward save) and then offensive option (double handed boss choppas -2 rend or maybe do mortal wounds on the charge, or more damage on the charge etc...) having them provide a bravery buff to nearby orruks would be ace or maybe a reroll wounds bubble (can’t let the big uns ave all da fun.... or something suitably ironjawz)  

@Chris Tomlin coined a name that would be perfect for these I’m sure he would let it be useds (for a free box!) MEGABRUTES

[Iradekhorne]

8 hours ago, Malakithe said:

You clearly never seen Vulkite Berzerkers. At max strength they are cheaper, hit harder, and are faaaaar more tanky then Ardboyz. At minimum strength Ardboyz would be marginally on par with Liberators

emm what?

vulkite berzerkers have special save of 4 if they are 30, but if they are 20 they loss -1 to this save, and when they are less than 20  tmhis special save is 6+. The berzerkers have arround 46 wounds pool, vs 60 of ardboyz.

his attacks with rend are on 4+ and on 4+, the ardboyz are 4+  3+ and ardboyz have much more melé buffs.

The only diference are the steel throwing hachets. But in melé, arboyz are better in all aspects.

[Malakithe]

26 minutes ago, Iradekhorne said:

emm what?

vulkite berzerkers have special save of 4 if they are 30, but if they are 20 they loss -1 to this save, and when they are less than 20  tmhis special save is 6+. The berzerkers have arround 46 wounds pool, vs 60 of ardboyz.

his attacks with rend are on 4+ and on 4+, the ardboyz are 4+  3+ and ardboyz have much more melé buffs.

The only diference are the steel throwing hachets. But in melé, arboyz are better in all aspects.

lol no..no they arent. Not by a long shot. Even if a max unit of Ardboyz gets support from a warchanter and mystic shield they would still get completely murdered by a max unit of vulkite berzerkers

[Chris Tomlin]

Ardboys at 100? Come on @Malakithe, that's just silly isn't it?! No one will take us seriously if we're shouting things like that!  

I think something like 140-160/380-400 would be a very interesting price point on the massive regiment. Right now though there is just little reason to take Ardboys over Brutes in my opinion. @Sangfroid covered my feelings on the matter, including the Gore-grunta reference, perfectly.

As a bit of a pet peeve, I do wish they wouldn't consistently push this "Ironjawz are deceptively fast" agenda on the community site and WHTV (I heard it mentioned loads whilst watching @Sangfroid's game). It's a complete misnomer since the GH2017 as  the Ironfist and Rampaging Destroyers were both hit hard, which killed a lot of our impressive movement shenanigans. The fact that Mighty Destroyers can easily be countered by edging one model within 12" of your units really doesn't help matters.

Anyway, I'm gonna reserve judgement overall until we've seen the new rules and GHB. It's hard to put too much stock into the snippets of info given in the faction focuses without context. That said, points decreases are cool, but they don't fix the fundamental issues with Ironjawz.

I am feeling (perhaps foolishly) optimistic that things are going to get better for us...maybe not straight away with the release of AoS 2.0 and the new GHB, but sometime in the not so distant future.

Either way, I'm excited for the changes to come and look forward to trying out some new stuff with the Ironjawz.

Chris

[Soul oWar]

Command ability rework seems nice and alleviate the double trip^le waagh, it gonna happens once and ouch that turn will hurt

[broche]

Arboys at 180 vs brutes isn't that clear cut to me: Ardboys have better life per points, more model, less sensitive to bravery and more model counts +2 to charge, but Brutes hits significantly harder.

However I admit the Gruntas at 140 (similar life per wound and unsensitive to bravery and better mobility) so only drawback is really model count. 

I think 140 for Arboys would be quite low. Thrall are  what 140 for 10 life at 5+? (they hit a bit harder but they're still paper). 140 would just 20 pts more than Savage orcs (20 life but at 6+ and much worse attack)

I think 160 would really be the sweet spot. Also hope they become generic battleline!

[Iradekhorne]

4 hours ago, Malakithe said:

lol no..no they arent. Not by a long shot. Even if a max unit of Ardboyz gets support from a warchanter and mystic shield they would still get completely murdered by a max unit of vulkite berzerkers

xDDDD

Yes, whatever you say.

The end is near!!! save your ardboyz guys!!! The sacred secret was revealed!

[Lysandestolpe]

8 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

The fact that Mighty Destroyers can easily be countered by edging one model within 12" of your units really doesn't help matters.

Omg, yes. This was such a buzzkill. I mean one of the most crucial parts of the game to get anything to shoot up 6" is round 1. But thats one unit that goes ahead of the rest of the army. The other important part is like.. round 2-3 when most things are, as you say, within 12" of an enemy unit. I honestly just stopped caring about the rule after a while. It just never did anything, but it can mean life or death if you stumble a 5" move with your brutes and have to count on rolling 6+ on the charge roll. It has happened to me. 
More Importantly, the now crippling movement shenanigans that has emerged in later battle tomes will hit Ironjawz much harder than many other factions as what we have, or perhaps had, was movement to count on. 
 

I am so very very excited to see an update to our beloved green tide. And that thing I hope they remove. ^^

 

11 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

I really want to see an elite unit of foot troops a 4-6 wound bigger brute that fulfill a more tanky roll and or increase bravery (ive mentioned this idea ages ago in other threads) ignore rend or 3+ with a 5+ save after save. Something we can push forward and hold the line. Using deepkin eels and an example a dual kit with huge siege shields as one option (ignore rend or ward save) and then offensive option (double handed boss choppas -2 rend or maybe do mortal wounds on the charge, or more damage on the charge etc...) having them provide a bravery buff to nearby orruks would be ace or maybe a reroll wounds bubble (can’t let the big uns ave all da fun.... or something suitably ironjawz)  

@Chris Tomlin coined a name that would be perfect for these I’m sure he would let it be useds (for a free box!) MEGABRUTES

I agree, but at this point almost anything new would make me cheer. My army consists of evert unit they offer except Gordrakk, because that's how few they are, and I can fit all of them in 2k.. cmon. Give us a Megaboss on Gore Grunta, or war chanter on boar. Something cool that can turn Gruntfist.. I mean "gorefist" into a competitive punch. 

I am super stoked about that idea. A size between a gargant and a brute, perhaps. Something that look slightly more unintelligent but packs some serious meats. The 5+ save against wounds and Mortal wounds would be totally valid not only against one type of army. At say 6 wounds with 4+ save, rerolling 1s, they'd be like pumped up death stormcast ironajw brutes. The idea sure makes me excited... Im picturing brutes with sheilds the size of the shields on those Warhammer 40k ogryns. The ratio shield to model, not actual size that is. ^^

[Skabnoze]

Shields!?  Those are for weedy little gits.  Real Ironjawz block attacks with their face.

[Richelieu]

6 hours ago, Iradekhorne said:

xDDDD

Yes, whatever you say.

The end is near!!! save your ardboyz guys!!! The sacred secret was revealed!

Yeah... Math says that those two units would actually just be in combat for the entire game, but I gave up trying to present evidence as it's just not going anywhere.

On another note, with the points reductions on Gordrakk and maw krusha could we be seeing the dawn of the triple cabbage list?!   I hope so.

[Skabnoze]

7 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Yeah... Math says that those two units would actually just be in combat for the entire game, but I gave up trying to present evidence as it's just not going anywhere.

On another note, with the points reductions on Gordrakk and maw krusha could we be seeing the dawn of the triple cabbage list?!   I hope so.

Looks like we will need to settle this in the time-honored tradition of a head-butting contest!

[Richelieu]

2 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Looks like we will need to settle this in the time-honored tradition of a head-butting contest!

I roll a 1 to hit, but we are surrounded by warchanters so I get +7 to the roll.  Critical success! I break my own skull.

[Malakree]

30 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Shields!?  Those are for weedy little gits.  Real Ironjawz block attacks with their face.

Imagine an Orruk the size of a megaboss but with overlapping plates over their entire body, a hand forged full plate ensemble. Instead of the standard "Ironjaw" the jaw plates go over the entire of their head and overlap forming a setup like the one maximus uses in gladiator. The plates on both forearms are much larger, equal or greater than the shields Ardboyz use with serrated edges and wicked points. 

A Brute Boss gone nuts with the plates, some using the claws others having hackers literally welded to his arm-guards. Units of 3(+), on Megaboss size bases.

Totes not overtuned!

[Skabnoze]

Pffft... wearing all of that armor means you are afraid of getting hurt.

Iron Juggernauts?  More like Iron sissy-gits...

[Vasshpit]

I probably am not going to get much street cred for this but I hope we don't just get AoS meganobs and am hoping for more than just fantasy 40k... just my opinion. 

Something  I really enjoyed to hear from the factions article is this, 

"Where most Orruks are unintelligent and unruly, the Ironjawz are far more disciplined, organised into a strict hierarchy based on strength and fighting with surprising tactical kunnin’."

Gives me hope that we get more than just "hulk smash" from the faction down the road.

[Skabnoze]

To be devils advocate, that bit of Ironjawz description is pretty much the exact same thing listed about Black Orcs since the 5th edition army book.

[Vasshpit]

@Skabnoze fair enough. I've only been smashin face a couple of years now.