Updating Ironjawz

[ledha]

21 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@ledha

I've been off on that one before. Personally I view it as a game issue not an IJ issue. There needs to be serious overhauls to the amount of MW output from the worst offenders and limits on save stacking.

My major suggestion on that front is that rend should occur after all other effects with 2+ being the original cap. So rend -1 means you can't have a save better than 3+, -2 caps at 4+ and -3 is 5+. That would go a long way to stopping the stupid 2+ rerolling 1s.

Then as a extention to that all MW on a 6+ are changed to -3 rend on a 6+ so wound rolls are still required.

Lastly any effect which is on an X+ should require the natural roll to be that not after modifiers. So things like bloodletters can't cheese their way up to MW on 3+ and the stormcast heal on save requires a natural roll of a 6 ignoring things like cover or staunch defender.

Those are issues for the health of the game rather than IJ issues tho. They go alongside removing army wide teleportation which isn't specifically costed on a units warscroll.

I agree with all of this, especially the bloodletter and castellant lantern part. It would prevent it to be too strong in case of cumulative bonuses, or useless as soon as a malus to hit/save come around the corner

[Malakree]

29 minutes ago, ledha said:

I agree with all of this, especially the bloodletter and castellant lantern part. It would prevent it to be too strong in case of cumulative bonuses, or useless as soon as a malus to hit/save come around the corner

Everybody I talk to agrees with it unless they are abusing 1+ rerollable saves or mass MW output.

For ironjawz we pay for our good across the board saves and solid weapons profiles.

Mass mortal wound output, ridiculous save stacking or random teleportation out of combat all just make our stuff over costed. I made a whole post about it somewhere.

Found it:

My first and second post are my thoughts on it.

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

@ledha

I've been off on that one before. Personally I view it as a game issue not an IJ issue. There needs to be serious overhauls to the amount of MW output from the worst offenders and limits on save stacking.

My major suggestion on that front is that rend should occur after all other effects with 2+ being the original cap. So rend -1 means you can't have a save better than 3+, -2 caps at 4+ and -3 is 5+. That would go a long way to stopping the stupid 2+ rerolling 1s.

Then as a extention to that all MW on a 6+ are changed to -3 rend on a 6+ so wound rolls are still required.

Lastly any effect which is on an X+ should require the natural roll to be that not after modifiers. So things like bloodletters can't cheese their way up to MW on 3+ and the stormcast heal on save requires a natural roll of a 6 ignoring things like cover or staunch defender.

Those are issues for the health of the game rather than IJ issues tho. They go alongside removing army wide teleportation which isn't specifically costed on a units warscroll.

These are the sorts of things that lead towards massive rules bloat & power creep to make sure that new releases are not garbage upon release so that players will buy them (a legitimate concern).

GW would be much better served if they were more aggressive in bringing the low end of the game up a bit and the high end down.  Armies should not have quite as abusive builds as some that exist and should be in a relatively close proximity in terms of strength.  I will continually buy new stuff - because I like new stuff.  But I want to purchase things because I think they are neat in some way (they look neat, or I like the fluff, or maybe the rules seem fun to me) rather than have to chase new releases simply to not get curb-stomped when I want to a play a game.  I hate when game devs don't do their job well and many players end up casualties of poor rules or rules creep simply because they chose an army using a criteria other than what is the current strongest thing in the meta.

[Zambo]

5 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Dangerous road to go down IMO, where do you draw the line about what was "originally intended"?

For what it's worth, I agree totally that it's a stupid rule and will be FAQ'd at some point (a little surprised it wasn't in the last one if I'm honest). But as it stands the rule is definitely that he does D3 mortal wounds to himself on a double.

If you choose to play that another way (for whatever reason), what other rules will you play differently because you don't like them?

EDIT - Hopefully that comes across as intended. Just read it back and it doesn't sound overly friendly. It's not meant to be like that though  

I also do not believe there are any new Ironjawz models in the works at present and the above comments likely relate to other upcoming Destruction releases, however I do think we will see something one day!

No offence taken I actually totally agree with you I only really play in a small group of guys who ruled on it without me asking!  outside of that I’d play it as written (vague as it is) ?

great to hear there’s something in the pipeline for destruction and hopefully IJ’s makes sense as they are a popular army n I’m sure any new miniature would sell like hot cakes

Plastic craic love your diagram please let this get into GHB18 or maybe u should apply for one of them jobs there advertising ?

[Lanoss]

Does anyone agree with me that all is probably needed to make Ironjawz competitive with the rest of these new battletomes (without bringing out an entire new book) is...

Army wide Ironclad (reduce rend by 1) excluding Weirdnobs

Warchanters receive a movement aura buff in addition

Weirdnobs get better at casting and maybe a buff spell 

 

 

thoughts?

[Malakree]

I think the things Ironjawz really need are

• Army-wide 5++ mortal wound save 
• Army-wide -1 rend increase.

Right now we are just to vulnerable to anything mortal wounds, we pay a lot of points towards our armour value and get shafted on bravery for it. Mortal wounds ignore the first and exploit the second in a vicious fashion.

Equally we don't actually DO mortal wounds, this means we fall over the moment the opponent starts getting solid rerollable saves (ie. everything in the game). Our ability to get around armour saves just isn't good enough in the modern AoS environment.  As an example of this, if one of our units attacks a buffed up Stardrake we make 36 attacks, inflict 1 wound and take 5 mortal wounds. 

There are four weapons in our entire army that this isn't true for MK fists, MB Riptooth-fist, Brute-boss Smasha. All of those we pay through the nose for and have a very limited supply of, it means that we just don't compete with the good armies.

If we wanted to be top table contenders then we would need the Army-wide Ironclad as well or make the 5++ a generic not mortal wound specific, so that we have a chance at not losing all our key pieces to Alphastrikes.

On a Separate Note
One thing I did think would be amazing for the game in general is for them to implement some of the changes they just made for 40k in sigmar. 

1. When making saves other than armour saves ("Ignore" Saves) you only get to make one no matter how many you have, which ever is best.
2. Any unit which Deploys (or redeploys) during the first battle-round must do so wholly within the controlling players deployment zone.
3. Rule of three for warscrolls - you can only take at most 3 of any warscroll which isn't battleline for your army.

Those on their own would go a massive way to cleaning up the game and stopping a whole bunch of the most obnoxious stuff atm. The first two especially would be so good for the vanilla type armies since they aren't abusing them while the third wouldn't even affect the majority of armies because of the "battleline if" which each of the allegiances has.

[Scythian]

On 3/13/2018 at 9:48 AM, Solaris said:

It honestly wouldn't be hard to fix Ironjawz, just seems like a massive missed opportunity on GW's part based on how many people play and enjoy them. I frequently see new players start Ironjawz because they are cool, only to become disillusioned when they realize how lacking their gameplay is. Here are a few minimalistic changes that I think would revolutionize Ironjawz:

1. Make a Megaboss/Warchanter on Gore-grunta dual kit.
2. Give Ironjawz a prayer lore (include a rule of one for prayers like for DoK). Make Warchanter's priests, and make Frenzy of Violence a prayer. Allow Warchanters to use two prayers per turn (their own and one from the lore). The prayer lore could include things like -1 extra rend for a unit, mortal wound proccs on hit or wound rolls, bonuses to charge rolls and similar. It'd essentially be a synergy tool box to make them a lot more fun to play.
3. Give them an allegiance ability to outflank or ambush, to alleviate their mobility issues.
4. Make the second weapon option of Gore-gruntas meaningful. Currently it is just straight up worse.
5. Give Gore-gruntas mortal wound impact hits instead of the Gore-grunta Charge ability. Make the impact hits scale with the charge distance, to mimic the buildup of momentum.
6. Increase the points cost of the Weirdnob Shaman and allow him to cast 2 spells per turn. Change Power of the Waaagh! to deal d3 mortal wounds to the nearest unit that is not himself.

Keep the bravery issues as they are (Ironjawz already have tools to alleviate them) and the lack of ranged attacks. These are thematic, and give the force an identity. Allied shooting is more than enough. Instead give them tools to deal with the lack of mobility. Ambushing would be one such tool, and the ability to boost Gore-gruntas into legitimate damage threats through prayers would be another.

I really think these changes could completely overhaul the faction, and make it a lot more interesting, flexible and competitive. Of course there are other things that could be done, like releasing new units, but I limited myself to one hero kit to keep it as simple as possible.

Give Brutes immune to battleshock and always reroll misses. That would certainly help put them on the map again.

[Scythian]

On 3/13/2018 at 9:48 AM, Solaris said:

It honestly wouldn't be hard to fix Ironjawz, just seems like a massive missed opportunity on GW's part based on how many people play and enjoy them. I frequently see new players start Ironjawz because they are cool, only to become disillusioned when they realize how lacking their gameplay is. Here are a few minimalistic changes that I think would revolutionize Ironjawz:

1. Make a Megaboss/Warchanter on Gore-grunta dual kit.
2. Give Ironjawz a prayer lore (include a rule of one for prayers like for DoK). Make Warchanter's priests, and make Frenzy of Violence a prayer. Allow Warchanters to use two prayers per turn (their own and one from the lore). The prayer lore could include things like -1 extra rend for a unit, mortal wound proccs on hit or wound rolls, bonuses to charge rolls and similar. It'd essentially be a synergy tool box to make them a lot more fun to play.
3. Give them an allegiance ability to outflank or ambush, to alleviate their mobility issues.
4. Make the second weapon option of Gore-gruntas meaningful. Currently it is just straight up worse.
5. Give Gore-gruntas mortal wound impact hits instead of the Gore-grunta Charge ability. Make the impact hits scale with the charge distance, to mimic the buildup of momentum.
6. Increase the points cost of the Weirdnob Shaman and allow him to cast 2 spells per turn. Change Power of the Waaagh! to deal d3 mortal wounds to the nearest unit that is not himself.

Keep the bravery issues as they are (Ironjawz already have tools to alleviate them) and the lack of ranged attacks. These are thematic, and give the force an identity. Allied shooting is more than enough. Instead give them tools to deal with the lack of mobility. Ambushing would be one such tool, and the ability to boost Gore-gruntas into legitimate damage threats through prayers would be another.

I really think these changes could completely overhaul the faction, and make it a lot more interesting, flexible and competitive. Of course there are other things that could be done, like releasing new units, but I limited myself to one hero kit to keep it as simple as possible.

Give Brutes immune to battleshock and always reroll misses. That would certainly help put them on the map again.

[Malakree]

Or for a more thematic version.

Gorkamorka's Fist - Ironjawz are the embodiment of Gorkamorka’s destructive presence in the mortal realms. Just as the two headed god can break anything so can ironjawz tear through enemy armour. Increase the rend characteristic of any attacks made by a unit with the ironjawz keyword by -1.

Ironclad - Ironjawz wear armour they forged with their bare hands, infusing it with the unstoppable fury of their violent god. 

Reduce the rend characteristic of any attack made against an Ironjawz unit by -1 (to a minimum of -). In addition whenever a unit with this ability takes a mortal wound make an save roll on the models unmodified save characteristic. If successful the mortal wound is ignored.

 

That would make ironjawz highly competitive and quite unique. Would have to trade smashing and bashing for it, possibly the +1 to charge aswell.

Would be nice to actually be able to brawl again though.

[Skabnoze]

15 hours ago, Malakree said:

On a Separate Note
One thing I did think would be amazing for the game in general is for them to implement some of the changes they just made for 40k in sigmar. 

1. When making saves other than armour saves ("Ignore" Saves) you only get to make one no matter how many you have, which ever is best.
2. Any unit which Deploys (or redeploys) during the first battle-round must do so wholly within the controlling players deployment zone.
3. Rule of three for warscrolls - you can only take at most 3 of any warscroll which isn't battleline for your army.

I am cool with 1 or 2, but I am not sure sure about the rule-of-3.  I say that because on the whole I find that Age of Sigmar has better army creation restrictions already than 40k does.  And honestly, Warhammer Fantasy has always had better army structure rules than 40k ever since 40k diverged from point percentages to the Force Org Chart in 3rd edition.  The Force Org chart is simply bad.  The design team has been trying to balance around that awful thing for almost 20 years - it is the root of a lot of the issues that 40k has had throughout 3rd-8th edition and it is rather mind-blowing that 8th edition tripled-down on the Force Org chart and made the problem way worse with the different types of detachments.

Also, it is important to consider that 40k armies are much larger for the most part.  Age  of Sigmar broke apart the Warhammer Fantasy armies in to myriad sub-allegiances and the current design trend seems to be for multiple smaller armies rather than big colossal ones (Stormcast and some Chaos seem to be the exception).  This means just dropping the rule of 3 into Age of Sigmar might have strange consequences.

I would say that Leaders, Behemoths, and Artillery already have a restriction based around the game size and probably don't need to be bound by the rule of 3.  How many armies really take multiples greater than 2 of any leader?  The current trend in army design seems to be to scatter buff abilities across multiple characters - which promotes taking a variety rather than a ton of any single choice.  As the game moves forward and they revisit some of the older armies (like Ironjawz) I think this trend will continue (Ironjawz I feel would almost be guaranteed to gain an extra character or two). 

Artillery does not really seem to be a problem either.  I find it interesting that it appears that every army created specifically for Age of Sigmar and not brought back over from Warhammer Fantasy does not seem to have any artillery.  Unless I am mistaken, they have not added any new artillery since Age of Sigmar was created.  Behemoths are one of the coolest parts of this game and in general there don't seem to be too many issues with taking multiples of a specific one.

If we add another restriction to the amount of warscrolls duplicates I would say that it should apply to units that fall into the "other" category for matched play list building.  I would cap those units at either 2-3 at the standard game size.  Then you could allow that restriction to be ignored for units that are included in Warscroll Battalions.  This would give more reason to look into paying for those battalions than just the extra ability - since it would allow you to push list creation restrictions by paying an extra point and using a formation.  It would also add a bit more use to selecting certain allegiances since they often make more units battleline - which in turn would remove restrictions on them.

[broche]

It would like to have more variety in battlelines. For now all are the some: Gruntas, brutes and arboys all ironjawz battleline. I would prefer something like:

Ardboys - battleline

Brutes - Ironjawz battleline

Gruntas - not battleline

do this for Bonesplitterz as well, and that would open the Mix build a bit

[Skabnoze]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Or for a more thematic version.

Gorkamorka's Fist - Ironjawz are the embodiment of Gorkamorka’s destructive presence in the mortal realms. Just as the two headed god can break anything so can ironjawz tear through enemy armour. Increase the rend characteristic of any attacks made by a unit with the ironjawz keyword by -1.

Ironclad - Ironjawz wear armour they forged with their bare hands, infusing it with the unstoppable fury of their violent god. 

Reduce the rend characteristic of any attack made against an Ironjawz unit by -1 (to a minimum of -). In addition whenever a unit with this ability takes a mortal wound make an save roll on the models unmodified save characteristic. If successful the mortal wound is ignored.

I like the Gorkamorka's Fist ability.  It is interesting, unique, and I think it fits the Ironjawz theme very well. 

After catching up to where the various Greenskins are in Age of Sigmar fluff and coming from playing Orcs & Goblins for a long time in Warhammer Fantasy - the niche that I see for Ironjawz is durability.  Sure, they are bigger and meaner than other Orcs.  But pure wanton savagery is not quite as much their schtick as it should be for Bonesplitterz.  They should of course be very good at killing things, but I view them very much like the Hulk from Marvel Comics.  They are giant green monsters covered in muscles that can take a massive beating and the more you hit them the more angry and stronger they get.  That is really the background that the battletome tried to present and it is a fairly unique and fitting thing for Orcs.

In contrast, the Savage Orcs have always represented pure savagery & berserk frenzied combat with no thought of personal safety.  The battletome for Bonesplitterz kept this trend and really described them as more of a force of nature - something like a combination of a stampede and an avalanche.  I think that GW should further push these two factions in that direction.  The Ironjawz should be the equivalent of damage sponged while the Bonesplitterz are a giant horde of berserk fury.  While not all of the rules for Bonesplitterz seem effective - I do like that they did have a bit of a theme of fighting multiple times in the combat phase and benefits for units of larger size.

Ironjawz have good damage output and are not overly lacking for Rend options.  They could possibly use a bit of mortal wound output, but I honestly think there is a bit too much mortal wound spam in the game.  Where I think the Ironjawz rules are lacking is damage reduction.  They have good armor, but thats it.  

I am not a big fan of the Ironclad rule you added above.  That rule makes them a bit too good against Mortal Wounds and seems more like a rule reaction to the amount of mortal wounds floating around the game - which just leads to bad design bloat.  Instead of that I would simply turn the special "Dead 'Ard" rule from the Ironskulls boys into an army-wide special rule (heroes get the better version that Gurzag has).  Then I would adjust the Ironskulls warscroll a bit to compensate for the loss of their special ability by either strengthening the rule for them (they get +1 to it) or making them a bit more offensive.

[Skabnoze]

Another neat theme that I would like to see explored for Ironjawz in the future is how they get stronger the more they battle and the stronger the enemy is.  I think that could play very well into the themes we previously discussed about how they are giant durable piles of muscle and armor.  The Megaboss already has an ability like this where he gets tougher and meaner when he kills an enemy hero.  Brutes have an ability against enemies that have high wounds, and Gruntas have nothing.  It would be neat to see some sort of ability for Brutes & Gruntas where they got a bit better as they either sustained casualties or won battles.  Sort of the inverse of how Bonesplitterz tend to gain abilities for having bigger units - which then gets reduced as they take casualties and their Waaagh energy is lessened.  Ironjawz take their strength from success as all Orcs do, but they also are noted for also gaining strength from greater adversity.  It would be neat to see some more rules that play into this. 

[Megaboss Badgash]

Hey guys, longtime reader but finally joining the forum. 

Been playing IJ since day one and been a Green skin player since 5th edition WHFB. 

Anyway, to the topic...

I think the easiest fix might be the simplest....could even be thrown into GH 2018 if GW were so kind...

Anyway, the easiest and cleanest way I can think of without needing new models or updating the warscrolls is to give Ironjawz their own spell lore, "Gorkamorka prayers" for Warchanters, and maybe even a few new artifacts. 

 Weirdnobs that choose a spell from Ironjawz lore can cast 2 spells per turn. 

Weirdnobs stay 120pts.

The lore can shore up some major deficiencies, for example...

Dead 'Ard 

Cast on 8+, 12" range,  all Ironjawz units in range are dead 'ard. They ignore mortal wounds on 5+ until next hero phase.

Tide of Destruction

Cast on a 6+. Pick D3 Ironjawz units within 18" of caster. If a chosen unit makes a successful charge a single enemy unit within 1" suffers d3 mortal wounds. 

Hand of Gorkamorka 

Cast on 8+, remove 1 Ironjawz unit with 12" of shaman and place them within 24" of original spot but 9" away from enemy units. 

Chukkin choppas 

Shaman imbues Ironjawz weapons with boomerang-like abilities...if thrown the weapon returns to the weilder.

Cast on a 7+. Ironjawz melee weapons can be used as a missile weapon in the next shooting phase except with 1 attack and 18" range but otherwise using stats per profile. 

For prayers I'm thinking a missile attack similar to foot of Gork that can't be dispelled. 

Fist of Mork

Prayer succeeds on a 3+. A large green fist descends from sky to clobber enemies into the ground and there's nowhere to hide. Pick an enemy unit anywhere on battlefield and inflict d3 mortal wounds. 

On a 5+ Mork does it again and then the spell ends.

 

Just some ideas but some pretty quick and easy ways to fix things without a complete overhaul or new models.

 

 

 

 

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

7 hours ago, Megaboss Badgash said:

Hey guys, longtime reader but finally joining the forum. 

Been playing IJ since day one and been a Green skin player since 5th edition WHFB. 

Anyway, to the topic...

I think the easiest fix might be the simplest....could even be thrown into GH 2018 if GW were so kind...

Anyway, the easiest and cleanest way I can think of without needing new models or updating the warscrolls is to give Ironjawz their own spell lore, "Gorkamorka prayers" for Warchanters, and maybe even a few new artifacts. 

 Weirdnobs that choose a spell from Ironjawz lore can cast 2 spells per turn. 

Weirdnobs stay 120pts.

The lore can shore up some major deficiencies, for example...

Dead 'Ard 

Cast on 8+, 12" range,  all Ironjawz units in range are dead 'ard. They ignore mortal wounds on 5+ until next hero phase.

Tide of Destruction

Cast on a 6+. Pick D3 Ironjawz units within 18" of caster. If a chosen unit makes a successful charge a single enemy unit within 1" suffers d3 mortal wounds. 

Hand of Gorkamorka 

Cast on 8+, remove 1 Ironjawz unit with 12" of shaman and place them within 24" of original spot but 9" away from enemy units. 

Chukkin choppas 

Shaman imbues Ironjawz weapons with boomerang-like abilities...if thrown the weapon returns to the weilder.

Cast on a 7+. Ironjawz melee weapons can be used as a missile weapon in the next shooting phase except with 1 attack and 18" range but otherwise using stats per profile. 

For prayers I'm thinking a missile attack similar to foot of Gork that can't be dispelled. 

Fist of Mork

Prayer succeeds on a 3+. A large green fist descends from sky to clobber enemies into the ground and there's nowhere to hide. Pick an enemy unit anywhere on battlefield and inflict d3 mortal wounds. 

On a 5+ Mork does it again and then the spell ends.

 

Just some ideas but some pretty quick and easy ways to fix things without a complete overhaul or new models.

 

 

 

 

I think most Ironjawz players here would agree with you @Megaboss Badgash. If the new magic supplement that's coming out this summer (or GH3) can give us a lore/prayer list, we'll be almost up-to-date. It gives our support characters more things to do and can help vary each general's play-style in a way. I really like Fist of Mork (or Gork) as well as Dead "ard

[Malakree]

15 minutes ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

I think most Ironjawz players here would agree with you @Megaboss Badgash. If the new magic supplement that's coming out this summer (or GH3) can give us a lore/prayer list, we'll be almost up-to-date. It gives our support characters more things to do and can help vary each general's play-style in a way. I really like Fist of Mork (or Gork) as well as Dead "ard

Was posting something here but I realised it was to ****** awesome and this wasn't the right place. Just guna hope over the the Ghur thread to finish my lorgasm.

[Ollie Grimwood]

Ardboys being min 5 instead of 10 (and being 90 pts) And with new models so they can be equipped fully one type of weapon option and that fit with the aesthetic  style of current recent Orruk/Orc models.

Also probably a drop in battalion costs as they rely on them in Matchedplay more than others factions 

[Melcavuk]

That fist of mork seems to be a flat better, no denial, unlimited range, no line of sight and easier to pull off version of Arcane bolt. Personally I'd favour toward different as opposed to flat better. 

[AlphaKennyThing]

I like some of the ideas thrown around on here, especially the redesigned Mighty Destroyers suggested in the first post. I also really like the Ironclad rule suggested, but at the same time, it's only really 'Ardboyz that are particularly more armoured than anything else in the game. I think the highly volatile nature of Orruks, particularly Ironjawz, makes them a perfect candidate for an army  wide, battleround-based buff progression, much like Daughters of Khaine. To me, it would be very thematic, and would mean we wouldn't necessarily need to add ranged units to the army to 'fix it', so to speak. Ironjawz are a melee army, and they're all pretty massive,  designed to punch stuff in the face. It's what they live to do, and in my opinion, they should be the best in the game at it, or very close. The penalty for that should be the fact that they have no ranged abilities, and not a huge amount of Mortal Wound output. It should be grinding, brutal attrition that takes Ironjawz through to victory. 

As such, I had a quick think about what a non game-breaking but still competitive progressive buff system might look like, and came up with the following (note: it uses the Mighty Destroyers change suggested on page 1):

Quote

 

An Ironjawz mob is an unstoppable force that wants nothing more than to charge headlong into the enemy. The longer Ironjawz find themselves fighting, the more berserk they become, until they are physically unable to carry on or until all the enemy around them are slain. Each Battleround, consult the table below to see what effects are in force. The effects are not cumulative.

Battleround 1: Da Green Tide
Eager to close the gap with the enemy and get stuck in to the fight, Ironjawz warbands will move with surprising speed. For the first turn, Ironjawz units may make a Mighty Destroyers move even if they are not within 6" of an Ironjawz Hero.

Battleround 2: Thundering Charge
As momentum builds, an Ironjawz army will crash into the enemy ranks in a brutal frenzy of violence and destruction that immediately puts foes on the defensive. For the duration of the second Ironjawz turn, any Ironjawz units that successfully charged an enemy unit this turn may pile in and fight first in the subsequent combat phase. Once the attacks for these units have been resolved, carry out the remainder of the fight phase as normal.

Battleround 3: Battle Frenzy
The longer an Ironjawz Orruk is in the thick of the fighting, the more they revel in the carnage around them. Some are so lost in a frenzy of violence that they will stop at nothing to kill or maim everything in their path. Before any Ironjawz unit is selected to attack this Battleround, roll a D6. On a roll of a 4 or more, that unit may pile in and attack twice in the Fight Phase. 

Battleround 4: Goin' Down Swinging
Once an Ironjaw is lost to the frenzy of combat, they will not run from the heat of battle. Instead, their ill-disciplined method of warfare can often leave them separated from members of their mob, where they will be swiftly brought down by more disciplined foes. Few will go down without fighting until they are completely overwhelmed. For the duration of the fourth Battleround, Ironjawz models lost in the Battleshock Phase may pile in and attack before they are removed from play.

Battleround 5: Last Orruks Standing
After prolonged battle, only the strongest members of the Ironjawz warband will still be fighting. Any Ironjawz units within 3" of one or more enemy units at the start of the Battleround may add 1 to the attacks characteristic of each of their melee weapons. Additionally, all units in the Ironjawz army do not have to take Battleshock tests, regardless of whether they are in 3" of an enemy unit. The effect lasts until the end of the game.

 

Such an addition to the Ironjawz army would make them have a fairly predictable format in terms of playstyle, but at the same time, Orcs as we know them very much are predictable. They get up in your face and beat you to death. A player coming up against an Ironjawz army knows that they are going to have to set a very solid screen up around their heroes for the second battleround, because they're going to get absolutely trainwrecked if the Ironjawz player is able to get multiple units in to combat. Even more so if a Waaagh! is pulled off too. Battleround 3 is going to be when the army is at its 'peak', and is when you're going to want to get most of the job done. During Battleround 4 and the mad scramble for objectives when the general is undoubtedly dead has the sting taken out the battleshock phase. Brutes running now triggers more attacks, so that enemy Bravery debuff they just brought in range is suddenly turned into a double-edged sword. Battleround 5 gives the surviving members of the warband increased punch, which could just be enough to turn the tide of battle when it is needed most. Those that have survived this far are the toughest and baddest of the Ironjawz, and as such won't be running away any time soon.

Couple this with some of the other suggestions, especially Ironclad, the changes to Frenzy of Violence and Waaagh! lasting until the next Hero Phase, and I think the army might be in a much better place without taking the p*ss.

[broche]

I was thinking: what if smashin and bashing allowed you to make a charge move and attack? that would help deal with cheap screen and get you to the juicy stuff

[Skabnoze]

On 5/9/2018 at 3:16 PM, broche said:

I was thinking: what if smashin and bashing allowed you to make a charge move and attack? that would help deal with cheap screen and get you to the juicy stuff

Fighting more than once per turn does not really seem like an Ironjawz thing though.  Mawcrushers can do it - but it thematically makes sense as they are just running round stomping on stuff.  Attacking more than once a turn thematically feels more like Frenzy in Age of Sigmar - which to me fits more for Bonesplitterz.

What if for Ironjawz they had a rule that allowed them to charge through units if they have enough movement (could possibly cause a couple mortal wounds with a formation or boss ability or something).  So that way you don't fight both the screen and the target unit - you just bowl straight through the screen and knock it out of the way.  That seems more thematic to Ironjaws to me.  Ironjawz feel like a brute force battering ram - or like a giant hay-maker straight to the face of the enemy.  While Bonesplitterz feel like a psychotic attack frenzy - or a flurry of light/medium punches.

[PlasticCraic]

We already have Smashin and Bashin - I think @broche means that you would get to charge before you trigger it.  So rather than proposing any more attacks or activations than we already have, it would actually be additional movement in the middle of them.  

It would be very interesting in terms of tactical options that it opens up, and in particular it would be a smart and thematic way around our lack of shooting (gives us a unique melee-based hero sniping option).  It could create interesting situations where you might overkill something with your Maw Krusha to get your Brutes springboarding into the backfield, and it gives people extra things to think about and consider when setting up screens.  And it's still suitably dicey.

I like it.

[broche]

yes exactly

it would be a nice boost and keeping the theme. But probably GHB18 is already written!

[Skabnoze]

18 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

We already have Smashin and Bashin - I think @broche means that you would get to charge before you trigger it.  So rather than proposing any more attacks or activations than we already have, it would actually be additional movement in the middle of them.  

It would be very interesting in terms of tactical options that it opens up, and in particular it would be a smart and thematic way around our lack of shooting (gives us a unique melee-based hero sniping option).  It could create interesting situations where you might overkill something with your Maw Krusha to get your Brutes springboarding into the backfield, and it gives people extra things to think about and consider when setting up screens.  And it's still suitably dicey.

I like it.

Fair enough.  I had forgotten that he was referring to the ability in the GHB-17 IJ allegiance when I made my comment.

That said, I do hope that they change up the IJ allegiance abilities when the next GHB comes out.  It is not a bad allegiance, but for some reason it really bothers me that it is basically an extension of the standard Destruction allegiance rather than something more unique.  

[Malakithe]

New faction focus for IJ. Kinda saw that coming but i hope there is more.

One of the many, many problems IJ has is thats all the units are overcosted. 

Maw-Krudsha coming down could be good and might be auto-include no matter the list...maybe even big green himself

Brutes need a points drop to about 160 to make up for easy it is to wipe them with bravery.

Ardboyz are possibly the worst battleline in the gsme for their current points when compared to similar priced and even cheaper battlelines so they better come down to the 100ish pts area. 

Megaboss and Warchanter are too slow to keep up with Ironfist brutes. 

The Weirdnob suffers from hurting himself and costs too much as well. He needs to come down to 100pts or his warscroll needs to be tweaked to allow two casts. Id say the new magic might help but as it stands he already has 4 spells to choose from with one attempt.