Updating Ironjawz

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, someone2040 said:

Legions of Nagash is proving that an army can do pretty well with very minimal ranged support.

Legions of Nagash has ranged support in the form of high Mortal Wound output. 

What the "Ranged Support" category really means is the ability to snipe the opponents squishy lynchpin heroes without them being able to throw a line of pink horrors then laugh. Whether this is done in the hero phase or the shooting phase is semantics.

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

Legions of Nagash has ranged support in the form of high Mortal Wound output. 

What the "Ranged Support" category really means is the ability to snipe the opponents squishy lynchpin heroes without them being able to throw a line of pink horrors then laugh. Whether this is done in the hero phase or the shooting phase is semantics.

I wouldnt say high MW output. I would say a sprinkling of MW output. Tzeentch is high MW output

[Chris Tomlin]

14 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Glad to hear you're getting back in the saddle @Chris Tomlin! 

Can I ask what you and @Sangfroid are both looking at running, or is it a secret project?  Kieran are you focussing in on the Stormcast for a while?  Just interested to know 

Honestly what you both have done for Ironjawz has been amazing.  There was one episode of The Black Sun in particular that I remember where Kieran was a guest on the show and you were reviewing the year, and both preparing for Masters.  @Sangfroid you were talking about the old batallion you used to run in the early days with the Gargant, it kinda stuck in my mind because it was around Christmas 2016 and the Ironjawz big box had just come out with a Gargant in it (I was salty at the time that I couldn't use it in Matched Play ).

I was over in the UK visiting at the time and I have really clear memories of listening to some of it on the plane, then again when I was out running, so it must have been a long 'un!  I might go back and have another listen actually, I know it's daft but it really reminds me of that holiday (what a sad git!).

I don't think anyone could blame either of you for changing it up a bit, you've both been great flagbearers for Destruction for so long.  Also very good to hear that this is not the end!  Hopefully you'll still be posting on here even though you're branching out for a while.

PS The Black Sun also introduced me to Parkway Drive and Steel Panther, cheers for that! 

Hey man,

Thanks for your kind comments. I've definitely had a fantastic ride with the Ironjawz over the last 18 months or so and it's been especially cool to have done it alongside @Sangfroid. It's a shame we never got around to recording the GHB2017 Ironjawz episode but oh well.

My current project is Phoenix Temple from a hobby point of view. I'm doing this for a fun/softer Firestorm campaign with a few friends. I have a blog somewhere in the painting and modelling section you can check out. I'll be rounding out my 1k doubles Tzeentch army to 2k at somepoint and also would like to do some more with my Venetian Death army as I think the new LoN is pretty cool. Basically I have loads of half finished projects I'd really like to crack on with this year (including various Ironjawz conversions etc). Tournament wise I don't really know what I plan to use. I suspect I will find it hard to not use the Ironjawz again this year and will of course report on anything I do right here.  Definitely not the end  

Also glad you picked up some new bands to listen to from the podcast. Tbh I enjoy feedback like that as much as the AoS content given my passion for music! Let me know if you have any bands you think I might enjoy.

Once again, sorry for going off topic guys!

Chris

[Sangfroid]

Thanks @PlasticCraic Echoing @Chris Tomlin it’s been super fun with the IJ and now that it’s confirmed and we are finally having our grudge (postponed twice before) it’s given me a boost of excitement list building and preparing for next weekend. Whatever happens it’s goign to a proppa send off for da ladz of both armies. If i am honest with myself I want an army that I can compete with, I am a nice bloke to play and not at all a WAAC player but part of my enjoyment in gaming is the thrill of tactical mastery of your opponent.  My SCE are really a narrative army as I love the novels and the Astral Templars, I’m 1500 points in on a kharadron overlords army which I hope to have tabletop ready for south coast (this army is a hobby project I am attempting to up my game painting wise). 

However Lord Sangfroid is in fact a Druchii Dreadlord & Reaver (formerly a Blood elf Rogue) who has been my alter ego for 14 odd years now and so I’ve been very excited by the Rumors about the Idoneth Deepkin and if the aesthetic is right then I think I may hop aboard this Ship when it sails, which would combine, narrative (SCE) gaming (Ironjawz) and hobby (Kharadron overlords) all into one. 

If I do not like the deepkin on any of those levels then I may go back to my old old roots (1985-1999) which was Death I love the new LoN book and could really see myself having a Legion of Sacrament or Blood. (Lord Sangfroid given the soulblight curse by Lady Feu maybe...)

back on track to updating ironjawz as this thread began I’ve covered above the initial changes I think could be implemented with essentiallly an FAQ now going deeper about the future and how I’d like to see the faction progress

1) I am happy to be deficient in shooting and all along over the last 2year in discussions on this forum, ironjawz having as their main weakness no shooting fits fine.  However currently we have a series of main weaknesses, shooting, movement (specifically redeployment)  mortal wound output and mortal wound defence.  I’d like to see ironjawz emerge as the faction that has highest armour (so 3+ on troops as above), high wound count (as above) as our defence against mortal wounds. This would make it a race agaisnt time for our opponents to take us down before we get across the board and engage (just like in the books a green tide...). As a trade off for this we shouldn’t have any redeployment or shenanigans in our movement, I.e we put our models all on the board at the start and then move them from that spot (even if this is free movements etc...) so again our opponents know where we are coming from and so can then react with force or chaff etc.... and we also should not have access outside of allies to shooting. 

moving to mortal wound output and what would make ironjawz a Competative choice I’d like to see this as short ranged charge/close combat additons. 

So goregrutnas do mortal wounds on the charge (4+ per model like the mournfang maybe?) 

Or a spell lore that enables this (hit rolls of a 6 do a mortal wound etc...) or Warchanter beats (like prayers but confer different buffs or debuffs)

or even an army wide Prophet type model (like a slann can pick Celestial boons) so if Gorks voice is loudest all units do d3 mortals when they charge if morks voice is loudest all models move d6” in the hero phase (basically replacing the Ironfist and Brutefist battalions) 

basically as out the box troops tough, armoured good solid attacks with rend but reward good play thru synergies in spells etc... this means our opponents can pick us apart by targeting our characters but the trade off is the green tide that’s advancing at them might be a better target meaning they have to choose. 

On bravrey I know it’s an annoyance but bravery is a significant part of the game our bravery options are fine right now with items and command traits and could be seen then with all these large changes as our minor weakness after no shooting etc...  we can’t expect invulnerable monoliths that cannot be stopped by any means :-) 

 

above in this post and my one from the other day is literally an faq or a quick redraft of scrolls, a spell lore, beats/prayers lore andnwould add flavour and enjoyment to ourselves and our opponents (I.e we wouldn’t be unstoppable). 

Add in some releases in particular a mounted Hero on gorepig, shaman on monster and Warchanter on gorepig and we would be rocking and rolling again 

[kenshin620]

2 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Add in some releases in particular a mounted Hero on gorepig, shaman on monster and Warchanter on gorepig and we would be rocking and rolling again 

Speaking of mounts, I am still surprised that so far AoS still doesn't have Squiggoths. Yes I know not everything greenskin has to be interchangeable between the games (for example a lack of trolls/troggoths in 40k) but you'd think a giant angry super squig capable of hauling huge war platforms would be perfect for the brutal ironjawz or even the basic greenskins.

For those who are somehow unaware of what a squiggoth is
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Plus be a perfect excuse to finally have a plastic squiggoth model (with 2 variants, one for 40k and one for AoS. Seriously GW the squiggoth has been one of the poster children of orks for more than a decade thanks to DoW yet is still firmly a FW thing!)

[Sangfroid]

31 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Speaking of mounts, I am still surprised that so far AoS still doesn't have Squiggoths. Yes I know not everything greenskin has to be interchangeable between the games (for example a lack of trolls/troggoths in 40k) but you'd think a giant angry super squig capable of hauling huge war platforms would be perfect for the brutal ironjawz or even the basic greenskins.

For those who are somehow unaware of what a squiggoth is
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plus be a perfect excuse to finally have a plastic squiggoth model (with 2 variants, one for 40k and one for AoS. Seriously GW the squiggoth has been one of the poster children of orks for more than a decade thanks to DoW yet is still firmly a FW thing!)

It is magnificent and with only a little bit of alteration would fit the mortal realms!

[Solaris]

It honestly wouldn't be hard to fix Ironjawz, just seems like a massive missed opportunity on GW's part based on how many people play and enjoy them. I frequently see new players start Ironjawz because they are cool, only to become disillusioned when they realize how lacking their gameplay is. Here are a few minimalistic changes that I think would revolutionize Ironjawz:

1. Make a Megaboss/Warchanter on Gore-grunta dual kit.
2. Give Ironjawz a prayer lore (include a rule of one for prayers like for DoK). Make Warchanter's priests, and make Frenzy of Violence a prayer. Allow Warchanters to use two prayers per turn (their own and one from the lore). The prayer lore could include things like -1 extra rend for a unit, mortal wound proccs on hit or wound rolls, bonuses to charge rolls and similar. It'd essentially be a synergy tool box to make them a lot more fun to play.
3. Give them an allegiance ability to outflank or ambush, to alleviate their mobility issues.
4. Make the second weapon option of Gore-gruntas meaningful. Currently it is just straight up worse.
5. Give Gore-gruntas mortal wound impact hits instead of the Gore-grunta Charge ability. Make the impact hits scale with the charge distance, to mimic the buildup of momentum.
6. Increase the points cost of the Weirdnob Shaman and allow him to cast 2 spells per turn. Change Power of the Waaagh! to deal d3 mortal wounds to the nearest unit that is not himself.

Keep the bravery issues as they are (Ironjawz already have tools to alleviate them) and the lack of ranged attacks. These are thematic, and give the force an identity. Allied shooting is more than enough. Instead give them tools to deal with the lack of mobility. Ambushing would be one such tool, and the ability to boost Gore-gruntas into legitimate damage threats through prayers would be another.

I really think these changes could completely overhaul the faction, and make it a lot more interesting, flexible and competitive. Of course there are other things that could be done, like releasing new units, but I limited myself to one hero kit to keep it as simple as possible.

[Malakree]

I really want a weirdnob on Maw-Krusha. 

The prayer idea is really good, I just worry it makes warchanters even more mandatory. How about having FoV be a prayer as you suggested but rather than give WC 2 prayers give all IJ heroes an additional prayer slot as part of mighty destroyers. 

On a 1 nothing happens as gork isn't paying attention. On a 2/3 one unit within 6" of the hero can move D6" on a 4+ the prayer goes off. Gain +1 to the roll if the hero is within 3" of an enemy.  

The ggs inflicting MW on charge is a great idea. 1 per model that ends within 3" increasing to d3 if they roll 8+ or D6 if you roll a 12+ 

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

5 hours ago, Solaris said:

It honestly wouldn't be hard to fix Ironjawz, just seems like a massive missed opportunity on GW's part based on how many people play and enjoy them. I frequently see new players start Ironjawz because they are cool, only to become disillusioned when they realize how lacking their gameplay is. Here are a few minimalistic changes that I think would revolutionize Ironjawz:

1. Make a Megaboss/Warchanter on Gore-grunta dual kit.
2. Give Ironjawz a prayer lore (include a rule of one for prayers like for DoK). Make Warchanter's priests, and make Frenzy of Violence a prayer. Allow Warchanters to use two prayers per turn (their own and one from the lore). The prayer lore could include things like -1 extra rend for a unit, mortal wound proccs on hit or wound rolls, bonuses to charge rolls and similar. It'd essentially be a synergy tool box to make them a lot more fun to play.
3. Give them an allegiance ability to outflank or ambush, to alleviate their mobility issues.
4. Make the second weapon option of Gore-gruntas meaningful. Currently it is just straight up worse.
5. Give Gore-gruntas mortal wound impact hits instead of the Gore-grunta Charge ability. Make the impact hits scale with the charge distance, to mimic the buildup of momentum.
6. Increase the points cost of the Weirdnob Shaman and allow him to cast 2 spells per turn. Change Power of the Waaagh! to deal d3 mortal wounds to the nearest unit that is not himself.

Keep the bravery issues as they are (Ironjawz already have tools to alleviate them) and the lack of ranged attacks. These are thematic, and give the force an identity. Allied shooting is more than enough. Instead give them tools to deal with the lack of mobility. Ambushing would be one such tool, and the ability to boost Gore-gruntas into legitimate damage threats through prayers would be another.

I really think these changes could completely overhaul the faction, and make it a lot more interesting, flexible and competitive. Of course there are other things that could be done, like releasing new units, but I limited myself to one hero kit to keep it as simple as possible.

I like that idea forthe Gore Gruntas charge. I would keep it simple so as to keep GG's at 140 points. The rule could be 3-7 inches away is one mortal wound per model that finishes 1/2 inch from an enemy unit, while an 8-12 inch away is D3 per model. The spear should also change, perhaps just giving GG's an extra damage and rend on any charge to keep it simple

Definitely agree the Warchanters and Weirdnobs need their own lore and prayer list to choose from. One idea could be for one of them to have a spell/prayer that affects enemy shooting and spellcasting. Perhaps a general -1 to hit across the battlefield due to the Gaze of Mork distorting their vision, or maybe if a successful spell is cast by an enemy wizard, they immediately take D3 mortal wounds. I wouldn't mind 

It would also benefit Ironjawz if we received a new dual-kit of some kind. Give us more versatility in the range 

[kenshin620]

7 hours ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

 

It would also benefit Ironjawz if we received a new dual-kit of some kind. Give us more versatility in the range 

I can easily imagine something like a Pusgoyle Blightlords kit where its two Gore Grunta mounted characters that can be built as either a megaboss, warchanter, or weirdnob shaman (perhaps even a named character).  Though that might just be me.

[Skabnoze]

It seems like the issue is mainly that it took GW a little while to find their footing with the game as a whole and the general mold for an army release and a Battletome.  You can look at the various books and notice a pattern of evolution over time.  The new Daughters of Khaine book has a pretty good general format - whether or not you like the army.

I think that GW will probably just need to go back around and rework the older army books now that they seem to have a general format nailed down.  And when they do that would probably be a prime time to drop a new box kit or two, or to take some of the existing boxes and split them into multiple units based on equipment.  Ironjaws really do feel like they could use another character along with expansion of existing character abilities through spell lores, prayers, etc.

[Solaris]

3 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

It seems like the issue is mainly that it took GW a little while to find their footing with the game as a whole and the general mold for an army release and a Battletome.  You can look at the various books and notice a pattern of evolution over time.  The new Daughters of Khaine book has a pretty good general format - whether or not you like the army.

Oh yeah, there's certainly an evolution! Everything is just getting better and better in terms of quality, with the unfortunate side effect that older products are left behind and feel incomplete in comparison. All battletomes predating GH16 in particular would benefit from some quality-of-life updates.

14 hours ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

Definitely agree the Warchanters and Weirdnobs need their own lore and prayer list to choose from. One idea could be for one of them to have a spell/prayer that affects enemy shooting and spellcasting. Perhaps a general -1 to hit across the battlefield due to the Gaze of Mork distorting their vision, or maybe if a successful spell is cast by an enemy wizard, they immediately take D3 mortal wounds. I wouldn't mind 

I don't think a spell lore is necessary, Bonesplitterz already cover the magic-heavy greenskin aspect. Keep Ironjawz magic the way it is, but make the Weirdnob more potent so that he's worth bringing over a mystic shielding allied Grot Shaman for 80 points.

[Chris Tomlin]

I was speaking to @Cowboy Boots Matt about the problems facing Ironjawz currently and suggested how cool it would be if Ironclad become an army wide allegiance ability. Might sounds a little OP at first (given it's our only feasible Command Trait), but I really think it would fit the theme of the army and tbh doesn't even help against one of the biggest offenders in the game; mortal wound spam.

[Scythian]

While I agree the bravery of brutes is beyond God-awful, they are still among the deadliest combat units in the game. With them practically never missing and rerolling against 4 wounds or more, you cannot dispute they are combat monsters. The problem with brutes  is that most of their support units suck so bad that they usually get surrounded and whittled down. Ironjawz are a tough sell. With brutes being so horrible when it comes to bravery and their points RIDICULOUSLY overblown, the army just can’t do what it needs to do. Now I know that the Cabbage Patch players will howl and groan at the notion of their army being third tier,  but they haven’t been knocking out tier one tournament armies as far as I’ve seen. 

[Vasshpit]

I'd love an upgrade sprue for the brutes kit with some new combat options like shields, ranged support, helmets. Hell even the way it's done there could be a cloak and hood style replacement for the upper torso to make some kind of ambush scouts units. 

Or just some new kits all on there own.

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, Vasshpit said:

Hell even the way it's done there could be a cloak and hood style replacement for the upper torso to make some kind of ambush scouts units.

Not sure if a 7 foot tall orruk on a large base can at all be stealthy. Plus stealth really hasn't played too much for fantasy orcs (only 40k orks have sneaky boyz, and even then those are considered to be very unorky and weird. Though Snikrot sure does have a kickarse model).

 

While it might start to step on the toes of Beastclaw raiders, surely there must be IJ who specialize in taking down huge beasts. I mean who else is supplying them with these huge animal bone parts! I could see something like them being a more skirmishing unit, with man sized javelins and entangling nets (sorry moonclan).

[Vasshpit]

6 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Not sure if a 7 foot tall orruk on a large base can at all be stealthy. Plus stealth really hasn't played too much for fantasy orcs (only 40k orks have sneaky boyz, and even then those are considered to be very unorky and weird. Though Snikrot sure does have a kickarse model

In one of the books Gordrakk himself sends out scouts... Just saying. 

[Solaris]

9 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

While it might start to step on the toes of Beastclaw raiders, surely there must be IJ who specialize in taking down huge beasts. I mean who else is supplying them with these huge animal bone parts! I could see something like them being a more skirmishing unit, with man sized javelins and entangling nets (sorry moonclan).

That's never going to happen, hunting huge beasts is firmly a Bonesplitterz thing. Heck, their entire faction is based on running around chasing beasts!

[PlasticCraic]

Ambushing is easy to fit in thematically, it's just "Loadsa Boyz" feeling the pull of the Waaagh and swarming in from the surrounding area to join battle.  So they come on any table edge.

That's if you actually need a thematic reason for it - Nurgle are now zooming around the board at the speed of light, and DOK have prayers despite their god officially not existing (praying to Morathi's cauldron? OK, whatever).  So it seems new releases can be Mary Sue armies, regardless of theme and playstyle. 

"You can have this, but it costs you that" seems to be out the window.  So let's go nuts and have mortal wounds at infinite range, 60 point 2-prayer casters, movement shenanigans, mortal wound saves, healing and Ikons of Gork for board control 

[someone2040]

12 hours ago, Solaris said:

I don't think a spell lore is necessary, Bonesplitterz already cover the magic-heavy greenskin aspect. Keep Ironjawz magic the way it is, but make the Weirdnob more potent so that he's worth bringing over a mystic shielding allied Grot Shaman for 80 points.

I think you'll find that spell/prayer lores are just part of the quality of life improvements everyone gets as being a new battletome.

Ironjawz for sure would get a spell lore. Even if it was only a 3 spell lore rather than a 6, but I think most probably they would get 6 spells in their lore. Most likely the Weirdnob would lose one of his spells to the lore itself, and then they'd just pinch a bunch of old Big Waaagh spells from Orcs and Goblins (and leave Greenskinz crying in the dust again).

 

Also, it's interesting you raise the 80 point mystic shield caddy. Ultimately if you're not strapped for hero slots or ally points and all you want to do is cast Mystic Shield, of course you'll take the cheapest option. But part of what a Spell Lore does, is it gives bonuses to taking the in-allegiance spellcasters as they get extra flexibility in the spells they know (and each lore to date seems to have some kinda spell that's almost like a must-take).

So I would probably say that a spell lore would actually make it less appetizing to take 80 point Grot Shamans and solve that issue in part.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, someone2040 said:

Ironjawz for sure would get a spell lore. Even if it was only a 3 spell lore rather than a 6, but I think most probably they would get 6 spells in their lore. Most likely the Weirdnob would lose one of his spells to the lore itself, and then they'd just pinch a bunch of old Big Waaagh spells from Orcs and Goblins (and leave Greenskinz crying in the dust again).

Personally I think they should introduce a Big and Little Waagh! spell pool which is available to all Orruks or Grots regardless of your allegiance. So allied Grot shamans still get to pick a spell from the little Waaagh! pool even in Ironjawz. That would be so much better than having unique ones for each allegiance.

[broche]

12 hours ago, Scythian said:

While I agree the bravery of brutes is beyond God-awful, they are still among the deadliest combat units in the game. With them practically never missing and rerolling against 4 wounds or more, you cannot dispute they are combat monsters. 

Yeah, problem is that now you have Daughter of Kaine that for 270 pts get 30 fury that can does like 100+ damage.  And even if you can put a screen and set up a good counter attack, wait: they can have a 5+ REROLLABLE ward save. Brutes seem pretty pale compare to that

I still don't get how they can come out with a groteske design error like this. (Sorry for the ranting, not that constructive but i needed to share that!)

[BunkhouseBuster]

11 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Not sure if a 7 foot tall orruk on a large base can at all be stealthy.

But Stormcast, who are larger than normal humans and clad in full plate armor, can have Vanguard-Hunters? 

11 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

While it might start to step on the toes of Beastclaw raiders, surely there must be IJ who specialize in taking down huge beasts. I mean who else is supplying them with these huge animal bone parts! I could see something like them being a more skirmishing unit, with man sized javelins and entangling nets (sorry moonclan).

My thinking as well!  Except instead of being monster-hunters,s make it a squad of guys that are there to make the enemy hard to hit or not be as effective a unit.  I was actually thinking of a ranged unit of Ironjawz skirmishers, with a a twist on the Brute sculpt with options for big and honkin' Javelins or Bolas, and either shields or Choppas for their secondary item.  Javelins for raw damage, with the Bolas being used to entangle enemy models/units in some way.

[Zambo]

Hi guys

I’m a long time O+G lover and been lurking around on this site for a while now, and this topic has really sparked an interest. 

I’m in the process of painting a 2000pt ironjawz army (currently 1/2 way through maw crusha)  and really love the look of the new models 

On topic I watched the IJ vs Death game on twitch last night n my god our lads got the mother of all kickings from a grave gaurd based combat army. It was a bit disheartening to see as combat is where we are supposed to excel!! 

Really hoping for something soon before IJ are religated to “fun games” category

 

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

There was a question asked at the GW Seminar Wednesday evening about Ironjawz. The GW rep said from what he's seen in the studio, you're going to be happy. So it appears our boyz are in the works for an update, but it's likely we won't see this until the end of the year, or sometime in 2019