Unit Shape

[Turragor]

I've seen some reference to it and I've tried it a little but I haven't heard of any rousing success stories.

I'm thinking about unit shape - what you might call a formation if that wasn't something else within AoS.

The way movement and combat is structured in AoS is making my brain itch. The engagement range and pile in features kind of loosely mimic how historical melees might play out. I feel like real some world examples of famous formations should have a similar effect in AoS.

One I hear a lot and one I enjoy is the 1 inchers in front of the 2 or 3 inchers. No I'm not being rude, I'm thinking of weapon ranges. With Stormcast an example is a line of Liberators in front of protectors (foregoing the ranged save bonus ofc).

Has anyone tried anything interesting? Cavalry wedges? Wide infantry blocks? Deep infantry blocks? V shaped formations? Are people keeping these secret for tournaments? Like:

In this example what do you lose and what do you gain? Would you pile in and break formation? How would you remove casualties - front or back?

What about legally (so each unit within it can complete their move before the next unit moves) blending warscrolls like:

(3 or 4 in this picture, and not actually an example of a formation with a benefit)

Something always makes me think that AoS should have some sort of 'meta' or secret 'other world' under the surface where the shape of a unit's troops plays a part. I know that a lot of it will be contextual but that applies to the old formations in medieval type warfare too and formations were still used then.

Right now I tend to simply plop units down in rough and uneven ranks tbh but I'm not a very competitive or thoughtful player I like painting.

[Shane]

I think about it. And then it falls apart on the battlefield.

However, for Plague Monks I have used organised chaos. As part of the movement and charge I wrap the unit around its intended victim. Then, after charging, the pile-in does not prevent models from attacking or getting stuck behind another model. This is in essence a form of formation tactics. 

Visually, in my mind, the formation applies when you're charging. It's about placement of models before piling in.

[Tommy]

Let's not forget the psych-out: spell out your name when deploying and then chaa-arge!

[Thostos]

 When playing my masses of Moonclan Gobbo`s I always try to move into a Crescent shape on the frontage of my charge target,,then of course charge in.Works very well I must say:)

 

[daedalus81]

It depends - you have to make use of the rule forcing your opponent to move towards the closest enemy model.

Using a wedge of cheapo cav swing around the side of a big horde.  When you charge keep the wedge.  Don't worry about getting all your models in - one model within 1/2 inch is enough.  Then charge the horde to the front but as far away from  your cav unit as possible.  Again - just get within minimum distance (with all the models on this one).  

This basically pulls the horde in two directions and they can't break unit coherency.  If you can pull it off it will quickly reduce the attacks they can bring to bear.

[mmimzie]

Yep like pulling a rubber band nice and tight. Which is why i love AOS. So much tactics. No idea why folks think you need a rule book the size of War and Peace to have a tactically interesting game.

This said though if your charging you'll have to activate first, and if the horde player has other activations he can make. He might beable to force out activations from your wedge.

[Akempist]

I think there are all sorts of possibilities for different formations that can provide tactical advantages.  

This is one reason I like this game so much.  It's not about "if I have more models in my enemies flank based on a 45 degree angle from the unit corner, I get a +1 on my combat resolution score," it really has to do with the natural advantage of getting models in a unit's flank.  You get more attacks and can control the enemy formation!  This was a big hurdle for me and some of my gang when we switched from 8th.  It took us awhile to shed our sense of....I charged in the back and I should get some sort of game bonus to.... I charged in the back and now I get to control their formation and where the enemy models go and get more attacks.  The advantage you get is more, I don't know, "organic" somehow?

[Turragor]

I love these posts. See my whole philosophy behind the thread was that I really want to experiment with formations in game but I just don't play often enough at the moment to be any kind of realistic tester for interesting formation tactics.

So I thought if people shared and compared their experiences and maybe were inspired to try out strange unit layouts, then we'd start to see some really nice, maybe basic but effective unit shapes emerge.

I wouldn't be able to have enough of a sample size to prove that a formation does what I think it does (and it's not just luck) against a wide variety of opponents.

I'm sure we'll see organic (as noted above) examples of working formations for various unit types emerge. Perhaps even formations that work extra well against specific unit types (say with double pile ins, or longer pile in).

I've been thinking that a V shape for a unit with 3 inch melee range where you don't pile in could be strong. For example. I've not tested it though!

[daedalus81]

Quote

Yep like pulling a rubber band nice and tight.

Then it shall be dubbed 'The Rubber Band'.  The red bases being 'closest enemy model'.  It leaves an umbilical cord in the middle from which no casualties can be taken if they want to be able to pile-in at all in the future.  Also after this initial pile-in nearly everyone is as close as they can be to the 'closest model' and so there will be very little change in the 'front'.

[WoollyMammoth]

AoS allows actual tactical formations. The most basic is a simple Shield Wall or Phalanx formation. In terms of stormcast, you would boost your Liberators with save bonus (Cover, Mystic Shield, Warding Lantern) and form a wall around troops behind. The idea is that the Liberators are your strongest link and can absorb the most damage, and you are forcing your opponent to get through them which plays to your advantage. If you keep a wall of protectors 2.5 back, then they can pile in behind the liberators if anyone charges them. Protectors can attack over their heads, while your opponents 1" weapons have to continue to attack your fortified Liberators. Behind the wall you can have a lot of shooting to back up the combat.

If you are familiar with Art of War (Sun Tzu) and famous battle formations then it will absolutely help you. As more people start to pick up the hobby you will start to see some really brilliant formations and tactics. 

[Akempist]

That's a great example.

I did one showing the advantages of a wedge formation vs. square ranks.  The base sizes are scaled to 40mm and 25mm ... so something like Liberators vs. Skeleton Warriors.  A simple wedge can reduce the number of attacks by a fair amount when facing a large unit of small bases.  Reds are in weapon range.

[daedalus81]

I'm going to hazard a guess that those skeletons on the corners are more than 3.5" from the second row of libs.  Sorry for the sloppy drawing.  A base of 75mm puts the arm at 85mm...so, pretty close.  If the libs maxed their cohesion they might get away.

 

[Akempist]

 

2 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

I'm going to hazard a guess that those skeletons on the corners are more than 3.5" from the second row of libs.  Sorry for the sloppy drawing.

Yeah, you're probably right, so they'd still be able to close to within weapon range, but not as close as I displayed...which potentially makes the wedge even more effective than what's displayed.

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Akempist said:

 

Going to also add you can kinda get more in on these guys than you'd think even with the wedge formation. As long as your not touching a base you can get closer to another enemy. As such you may use all 3 of your inchs as long as you end the move closer than you were before. so in the top left picture you can't move one of the models that is already base to base. 

However, every toher model can still move 3 inches as long as they end up close to that front dude. Sooooo....... many of those guys could run way up and get base contact with the second or get close to the third row, and still be closer to the first guy than when they started thier move.  I took some pretty detailed pictures as my buds and i were talking out some AOS manevuring. I'll throw them up and explain, but for a quick recap. A horde would still get alot of thier attacks in, but also the block can prevent a lot of models from moving, where as a wedge allows more models to move.

Lastly;

2 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

  I love those power of flanking shot, but more over you can get this same effect with out actually charging.

[Akempist]

34 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Going to also add you can kinda get more in on these guys than you'd think even with the wedge formation. As long as your not touching a base you can get closer to another enemy. As such you may use all 3 of your inchs as long as you end the move closer than you were before. so in the top left picture you can't move one of the models that is already base to base. 

I think you can stretch it slightly further than the visual shows (revised with a little better measurements below), but I'm not certain you can get many more models in range to attack.   Having to get closer to the nearest enemy, which for most of the first rank of skeletons would be the lead liberator, squeezes the available space you have to pile in and still get closer to that specific model.  3" is a little less the the diameters of two liberator bases, so there's just either not the space or the distance to get all up in their grill there -- unless I'm missing something.  (Which is always possible!)

What's the bottom line here?  21 models attacking vs. 16-17 models; doesn't seem like much a difference.  But suppose these are skeleton warriors and in this case since 40 skeletons would have 3 attacks each...that would be 15-18 fewer dice that are being rolled.  4+, 4+ that's 25% wound chance so maybe 4-5 fewer save rolls being made, on liberators 4+, so maybe 2-3 fewer wounds?  Nothing to sniff at I suppose.

[daedalus81]

In a match-up where things are close every wound counts.

[Tommy]

Yep, it's a game of percentages. And slight advantages can get amplified by things like battleshock, so give yourself every chance!

[mmimzie]

Yeah did a game today testing out a close quarters scenario. Was only 500 points. I brought a gallon of zombies. They rolled double 6's for charge and enveloped his whole ogre army. I doubled their attacks with a vamp lord and did nasty stuff. 

Using the horde to kinda stick all his ogres in place let my vamp lord slowly add her finishing touches to each of the ogre units after the zombies softened them up. 

Just crazy how cool the pile in mechanics and let you really orchestrate some fantastic maneuvers in this game. 

 

You can use the extra distance your horde guys have that are far out, to make another models substanialy close then the intial closest models at the end of your move. If you play your cards right and not just smush everyone in you can get an effective surround in 2 pile ins.  However, not smushing everyone in right away leads to missing a whole row of attacks. So one must be pretty careful.