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Sylvaneth Battletome - Are we heading in the wrong direction?


PJetski

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The Sylvaneth Battletome contains unique Battle Traits, Command Traits, and Artefacts for Sylvaneth Allegiance armies. Previous books have contained unique Battalions so this is just an extension of it.

However, I think that locking unique Battle Traits, Command Traits, and Artefacts (in addition to Battalions) behind a paywall has crossed a dangerous threshold. One of the big reasons I got back into Warhammer after 10 years was because it was so easy to get into and I was never forced to buy supplementary material.

You can say that these new additions are all optional... but are they truly optional? If you plan on playing Sylvaneth (or any other faction going forward, it would seem) then you are completely gimping yourself by not buying these expensive hard cover books.

What do you guys think?

 

Edit: The Battletome also contains 6 unique spells for Sylvaneth Wizards

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3 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

I'd assume the bits will be available piecemeal on the app like Battalions are.  So you're still buying stuff (they're a business), but maybe just $3-5 for a couple bits rather than $50 for the book.

This could certainly be true, but how many "optional" bits will players have to buy before they finally have all the options for their army?

That kind of business model turns people away from the game; nobody likes to be nickel-and-dimed.

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If the thought of forking out a couple bucks, say 1/5 of the cost of a box of models, for something that is useful but not mandatory, is enough to deter you from playing, then you're not going to play.  Simple as that.

Nobody likes to be nickel and dimed, but I'll take it over being Jackson and Franklined any day (ie. the dudes on the US $20 and $100).

(I am WAAAAY deep into AoS, have purchased exactly one (1) Battalion in the app, and exactly one (1) Battletome - I'll probably buy the General's Handbook, and then I'm likely done with non-model purchases for a while again.)

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I'd rather argue that we're heading in the right direction. The entry point of the game is still very, very cheap (compared to before): Buy a general you like, get a box of the coolest soldiers and you're ready to rock.

If the game strikes your fancy and you wish to expand your force, buying a battletome is going to be a very small expense. The new spells and options are realistically not going to matter a whole lot until you've got a semi-sizeable force (500+ points) at which point you've most likely invested enough time and money into your army that you'd like to buy the battletome regardless.

The barrier of entry remains low, but the new options open up possibilities to delve deeper into the game and your faction.

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I'm glad individual factions are getting made more unique. The more different each faction can feel, the better, in my opinion. They definitely needed to make the battletomes deeper, as just fluff and art (and rules that are fairly quickly getting outdated/not being comprehensive) wasn't getting many people to bite. More stuff to wrap my mind around is appreciated.

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For me, we are getting the best of two worlds with the new Battletomes: an extremely fun and streamlined sistem with flavorful factions and options for personalization. It's difficult to find both thing in the same game.

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$50 is not a bad price point for a nice hardcover book with lots of beautiful images, fluff, lore, rules, etc. and by all means if you are trying to really get into an army, why not?

I understand you say, hey I don't want all that, I just want my damn RULES please. When you want one part of a package, most companies will tell you no way - this is part of a package you buy the package or nothing at all. GW actually offers them as a separate transaction on the app, which is more of a gift than trying to "nickel and dime" you. GW is willing to allow you to forfeit the $50-80 book so you can just buy the rules for cheap. Plus we don't even know what they will give away for free - the GA are probably free (or, you can find them online anyway) and the Sylvaneth can claim GA: Order. The additional custom rules are likely based on the lore contained within the book, so if you just get a list of magic items you don't really know the significance behind them. Its specifically stated to model your hero's as if they have the item. So honestly it makes sense to keep all these rules behind a $50 book which you do not need in the least to play games with Sylvaneth. 

Its not as if there are a hundred books you want to get. For example I have my Skaven, around 5630 points worth. I still consider myself a Skaven player - I don't care about the GA:Chaos book and you certainly wont see my Skaven fighting alongside daemons or warriors. I'm not a big Clan Pestilins fan either so I skipped that book. But if they release a specific Clan Skyre book, I'll be all over it no matter the cost. Also you might not be interested in every release - I'm a big Wood Elf player with two treemen and some dryads, but I'm not going to be getting into Sylvaneth. Maybe later but I'm still on the fence about it and am more into my other armies.

I'm actually more annoyed by the time of war rules. These are great rules that everyone can use for any battle, really disappointing that they charge on the app for those, they only make games more fun and in turn get more people playing and enjoying games. I don't mind if they sell us rules out of a faction book but things that everyone can use should be free IMO. As a result most people are just ignoring all this fun stuff. 

Regardless, the cost of the hobby has gone way way up through the models. Just recently the cost of a hero has increased from about $12-25 to $30-50. Big models used to be $60, maybe $70 now they are shooting up to $130 for Alarielle?? The average box was about $25, now its double that. While on one end they are selling very nicely priced starter sets to get us hooked, every little step after that is huge. You might split the AoS box with a friend for $60, then it costs $60 more just to get 3 more prosecutors! 

The price of plastic crack just went way way up, forget about the supplementary stuff - you'll need the money for your next fix.

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Right from the start of AoS it has been pretty clear what GW have been offering:

Nice models. A setting that is deliberately free form. Basic, free rules to do something with those models. All the rules to play their models in this rule set available for free

You then make a choice: if you like the models and the setting, GW are happy to sell you stories, and more ways to play the game, and scenarios, and more background on specific armies, and new rules for playing particular armies, and so on.

If you like the models but don't want to pay for more of the setting or the rules or whatever, don't buy their optional add-ons.

So, right from the get go if you want to get into the game beyond the extremely basic level of some high level background and the fundamental rules to play there has been a 'paywall'. The Sylvaneth battletome does not change this basic model, it actually adds more options and value if you decide to pass over the 'paywall'.

*On a tangent I feel that paywall is rubbish as a paradigm to think about the creative - consumer relationship. If somebody creates something they should receive money for this creation. So, either the consumer of the creation pays for access or the consumer becomes a product to be sold (through advertising, data whatever)

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7 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Do we know if the general hand book rules wil lbe free. The rules being free is doing wonders for building age of sigmar. We have more people playing AoS in the shop than i've ever seen play fantasy.

Yes this is exactly what I am talking about - free rules are a HUGE reason why Age of Sigmar is building momentum. I would hate to see more and more rules start to get locked behind paywalls like the Generals Handbook and Battletomes

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2 hours ago, PJetski said:

Yes this is exactly what I am talking about - free rules are a HUGE reason why Age of Sigmar is building momentum. I would hate to see more and more rules start to get locked behind paywalls like the Generals Handbook and Battletomes

Well the core rules and war scrolls are still free so there is no paywall. As opposed to something like 40k where you NEED to buy the rulebook and codex to have even the slightest idea what is going on and what your armies stats are. The battletomes, campaign books, and generals handbook are supplements which are designed to provide complementary and completely optional additional content. You can still play age of Sigmar without any of them. 

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- Essay Alert -

I have a foot in both camps of this discussion. And I also have a connected pet hate to reveal at the end of my essay

We're kind of talking about a lot of things at once. I want to focus on three specific things or I'll ramble. The three things are - the way GW releases rules, the effect the release method has on the competitive side of the game, and keeping your book/rule/digital supplement content handy.

Faction Rules Release Methods

  • Long cyclical releases
  • Scattered rapid releases

40k (which I confess is now far too convoluted for me to even touch, even though I bought the rules when I restarted with the hobby last year) has a system where there's base rules then a codex then supplements with augmentations for the faction in question and then box sets and the like with even more special bonus rules, and so on. It's a blend of both methods.

The last time I played Warhammer was like 3rd or 4th edition and then it was a case of - buy the rules, then buy an army book and a bunch of models for that army. The book was compulsory together with the rules. The army books would be rebooted cyclically to keep the models and points cost etc competitive. It's only the first method.

So always, always, GW has packaged rules with an associated cost together with models with an associated cost. The method of delivery would change, and that's what we're talking about now.

AoS is wonderful with free warscrolls - it really, really is. At a basic level you get so much for free rules wise. I think we need to acknowledge how big a deal this is by adding another faction rules release method to the list:

  • Free basic rules updates

Rules as Applied to Competitive Play

In 40k all those paywall locked rules are valid in a tournament setting by default. So this opens the pay to win pandora's box for 40k. At the same time, the small updates would actively balance out weaker armies. Some 40k factions would beg for some rules to buy just to be viable in a tournament.

Furthermore, tourneys are organised in different ways and organisers can always say 'X is not allowed/Y is limited'. The latest rules released being the default legal set is only really applicable in official GW tournaments.

In Warhammer the latest rule and army book were the default. Again there were exceptions that varied based on organiser preferences. By and large though if you saved money by not having to buy a Skaven army book for 4 years, you were also being crushed by nearly every other faction updated between the release of your last army book and now.

With AoS we're getting quite a nice middle ground in my opinion. It's also a delicate balance and one that I may end up disliking in official tournaments.

I also think there are too many options now in terms of payments for content and not enough options for easily accessing the content you buy. It's confusing. I need to set a long winded example...

The example

The Extremis chamber is not truly an extra faction but the part of the faction that contains cavalry and their behemoth monster unit. And yes the book was smaller. It was cheaper. The gaming content locked in it isn't very exclusive and I am pretty sure I will never use the battalions in that book (the models required would take an age for me to paint!). The battleplans are very specific - so much so that it is absolutely no problem that they're in that book only.

And the rules for allll the models are available for free!

But here is the thing. Let's imagine a new release, similar to the extremis chamber.  Say a new Khorne tome focused solely on supplementary rules for only 2 new units (a big red cook swinging a pot of bloody shrimp and then a load of giant crabs with daggers for claws - or something). 

Let's imagine this new seafood-Khorne subfaction has some really nice rules - connected to the general's handbook ie competitive play - then we're more into the 40k camp where you feel compelled to have all options available in order to build an army for a tourney if you lean towards either power play or just take it seriously.

So in this case, to get everything you need to have every potential option in a tournament you would:

  1. Not need a core ruleset.
  2. Need an army. 
  3. Need the overarching faction book.
  4. Maybe need one of the Realm War books that has a crab specific battalion that's really good with your Khorne Seafood Army.
  5. Need the general's handbook. 
  6. Need a newly released subfaction book.

BUT you could also just buy small chunks from each of those and you'd save money and have what you needed for that tournament.

So you already bought the faction book but you crack open the app and buy a good bundle that has a bunch of times of war and battleplans and battalions (including the one you want) from the Realm War book. You also buy some artefacts that you'll use from the reduced price online version of the subfaction book. Then you physically buy the general's handbook (as most players probably will).

You're all set but OH WAIT how on earth are you going to easily access all this stuff at the tourney?

  • You've got your battalion rules on the app (which isn't hella smooth) on your phone;
  • You've got some of your unit rules in the faction book (no doubt bookmarked to be easy to flip to);
  • You've got the general's handbook with you;
  • You've got a tablet open on another version of the app containing the artefacts from the online Seafood Khorne subfaction book;
  • You've got maybe a few printouts of warscrolls that are in the app up to date but not in the faction book up to date (you don't want to keep hopping between the digital content on the apps on your phone or tablet and you drew the line at taking a friend's tablet with you)

THAT'S JUST NUTS

And that ladies and gentlemen, is why I have completely derailed my train of thought and now dub this storage and presentation of legitimately bought content problem as the biggest problem facing AoS.  There's no solution to this. The app is an idea towards it but is not built to solve this problem.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Do we know if the general hand book rules wil lbe free. The rules being free is doing wonders for building age of sigmar. We have more people playing AoS in the shop than i've ever seen play fantasy.

It's very unlikely.

But i would point out that the various traits etc. only apply to Matched Play games. If you are happy with the way AoS currently plays, then there is no need to buy the battletome because  you don't need those rules to keep playing the way you do now.

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9 hours ago, mhsellwood said:

Right from the start of AoS it has been pretty clear what GW have been offering:

Nice models. A setting that is deliberately free form. Basic, free rules to do something with those models. All the rules to play their models in this rule set available for free

You then make a choice: if you like the models and the setting, GW are happy to sell you stories, and more ways to play the game, and scenarios, and more background on specific armies, and new rules for playing particular armies, and so on.

If you like the models but don't want to pay for more of the setting or the rules or whatever, don't buy their optional add-ons.

So, right from the get go if you want to get into the game beyond the extremely basic level of some high level background and the fundamental rules to play there has been a 'paywall'. The Sylvaneth battletome does not change this basic model, it actually adds more options and value if you decide to pass over the 'paywall'.

*On a tangent I feel that paywall is rubbish as a paradigm to think about the creative - consumer relationship. If somebody creates something they should receive money for this creation. So, either the consumer of the creation pays for access or the consumer becomes a product to be sold (through advertising, data whatever)

I pretty much agree with all of this and this is why Age of Sigmar is so fantastic. You play the game how you want. You want to use points and formations and be all competitive? GW have provided a solution (eventually!) for this. You want to have a quick game with your mates and not too worried about what is on the table because you want to roll some dice and be silly? Again, GW have provided a solution.

The game is what you make from it and you can invest as much or as little time and effort and money as you want in to it.

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10 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I pretty much agree with all of this and this is why Age of Sigmar is so fantastic. You play the game how you want. You want to use points and formations and be all competitive? GW have provided a solution (eventually!) for this. You want to have a quick game with your mates and not too worried about what is on the table because you want to roll some dice and be silly? Again, GW have provided a solution.

The game is what you make from it and you can invest as much or as little time and effort and money as you want in to it.

Couldn't agree with this more. It's  a game. Make it your game. Play it how you like with who you like.

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1 hour ago, Turragor said:
  • You've got your battalion rules on the app (which isn't hella smooth) on your phone;
  • You've got some of your unit rules in the faction book (no doubt bookmarked to be easy to flip to);
  • You've got the general's handbook with you;
  • You've got a tablet open on another version of the app containing the artefacts from the online Seafood Khorne subfaction book;
  • You've got maybe a few printouts of warscrolls that are in the app up to date but not in the faction book up to date (you don't want to keep hopping between the digital content on the apps on your phone or tablet and you drew the line at taking a friend's tablet with you)

This is what is annoying me the most at the moment with all this, I have my stuff on the Ipad at the moment, but compared to a tabbed book it is slow (given the app isn't exactly instantanious in swapping between scrolls).

Slowness aside however I do wish they would make a pack for a particular faction that contained all the formations, rules, points without the fluff in a digital bundle. I mean I consider myself good with information, I did an Archaeology degree and I am Technical Author by trade, but when I go and look at what you can buy digitally I am sat there thinking to myself 'what the actual f%£*?', I would love to have all the information relevenant to my faction digitally in a single bundle, it auto updates, I wouldn't need to look for 20 different downloads through the app, and I would be able to filter it so I can see only the stuff relevent to my faction, Great, fantastic!

But alas, this is not the case, and I am getting hugely put off trying to focus on a particular army for competitive play because of this bitty nonsense is going on. It wouldn't be so bad if somewhere they would actually list somewhere what stuff is available for your faction and what each thing does.

On another train of thought, I do wonder whether they have thought about doing a subscription service for this content, Pay £3 a month and get access to ALL digital rules across the board. I mean we do this for TV, movies etc now, and it would feel far less daunting than paying over £100 up front for a couple of books so you can use your army.

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35 minutes ago, Nubgan said:

On another train of thought, I do wonder whether they have thought about doing a subscription service for this content, Pay £3 a month and get access to ALL digital rules across the board. I mean we do this for TV, movies etc now, and it would feel far less daunting than paying over £100 up front for a couple of books so you can use your army.

I think that if they did this they'd price it at an insane price point marketed as '50% off'. So you'd end up paying £100 a month or something because there's just so much content sold in book form. Like those insane black library 'digital bargains' you see.

What would also be needed would be a section in the app for collating all battle specific information in one place. Like the 'my battle' section but much improved because even though that holds warscrolls, battleplans, battalions and times of war, it always feels like stuff is missing.

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18 minutes ago, Turragor said:

I think that if they did this they'd price it at an insane price point marketed as '50% off'. So you'd end up paying £100 a month or something because there's just so much content sold in book form. Like those insane black library 'digital bargains' you see.

What would also be needed would be a section in the app for collating all battle specific information in one place. Like the 'my battle' section but much improved because even though that holds warscrolls, battleplans, battalions and times of war, it always feels like stuff is missing.

I am thinking a little bit more along the lines of something like EA's Origin Access service on the PC platform, the service allows you to download games to play at your leisure for like £3.99  a month. In the case of this situation, it would let you access/view/download the scrolls whilst you have the subscription, but if you cancel one month you loose access to the content, on an App like this it would be more than easy to implement, and I think they would find that people would actually use this content in a format like this.

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  • Quote

     

    • You've got your battalion rules on the app (which isn't hella smooth) on your phone;
    • You've got some of your unit rules in the faction book (no doubt bookmarked to be easy to flip to);
    • You've got the general's handbook with you;
    • You've got a tablet open on another version of the app containing the artefacts from the online Seafood Khorne subfaction book;
    • You've got maybe a few printouts of warscrolls that are in the app up to date but not in the faction book up to date (you don't want to keep hopping between the digital content on the apps on your phone or tablet and you drew the line at taking a friend's tablet with you)

     

    GHB is an intermediary like Ravening Hordes - points will eventually be on the app.  Artefacts are another issue, but you're going to have 2 or 3 at most usually so it won't be hard to scribble them down on your list.

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