Shooting in combat and from combat in General's handbook

[Hounsou83]

Hello to everyone !

a great discussed rule here in Italy in my big gaming group is the missile  attacks in close combat and against units in close combat

what do you think ? Are there, in the general's handbook some clarifications about it?

i dont like to have my archers be able to use their bow while they arte in close combat, what do you think?

 

[Shane]

GW just released the official FAQs. Shooting in and out of combat is 110% officially approved. 

There is, of course, the houserule section in the General's Handbook. So if your group agree go for it. But do remember that units are costed based on the fact they can shoot in and out of combat. Limiting them would require a point cost reduction too.

As for narrative,  I have no issue with it. AoS is more greek mythology than the more traditional approach of WHB previously. It makes sense in my head that units would be doing larger-than-life acrobatics and feats.

And I like the rule. More variation and options to consider.

[Knight of Ruin]

On 29.6.2016 at 9:05 AM, pez5767 said:

I'd like to see some modification to this rule as well.  For me, it's not so much using the missile attack at a unit the shooter is engaged with as when the shooter shoots a different unit than the one he is engaged with.  The problem is, it breaks the narrative that garrzira describes above. To me it reads like,  "The Stormcast jumps over log to bash in the orruk's skull, then quickly looses his arrow into another [orruk who was standing 100yds away despite the fact that there were 10 more orruks within arms length also trying to bash in his skull]"

Or:

"The Stormcast jumps over log to bash in the orruk's skull, then quickly looses his arrow into another [orruk who was standing 100yds away about to reach the relic/general/long lost love of his life.]"

 

[Veterannoob]

On 6/29/2016 at 4:19 AM, Ansuz said:

Denying shooting in combat would seriously maim the Fyreslayers faction, since all our units and heroes are equiped with throwing axes.

Yes! Our nerf axes occasionaly kill things, yesterday even a ghoul courtier and varghulf!  Magma spew from my bulimic Magmabomb would be nice if I didn't face all one-model units.

[DamonRafael]

Has anyone tried allowing shooting units to only shoot at the units they are engaged with, rather than anywhere on the field that is in range? My group has discussed this option, but not actually tried it out.

We actually did try something similar (me and a couple of friend). To be more strict to the fluff we gave a -1 to hit when engaged and shooting in the combat, a -2 instead if engaged and shooting outside the combat. Now it worked pretty OK, or at least we found that we enjoyed that HR.

That said, we also agreed that adding this rule would mean lower by X the ranged troops as most of the army reach close combat really fast. Still wondering how to manage it

[pez5767]

Wow, that was quite a response.  Thank you to those who assumed those discussing the topic didn't understand the game rules for clarifying, pointing out the FAQ, and/or nit-picking responses.  

I now fully understand the rules regarding shooting, and that any opinions I might have based on my own narrative and the suspension of disbelief as they relate to the rules should probably be kept to myself, so that the serious discussion of how to use the rules correctly and optimize unit selections and performance within those rules can continue unhindered by silly personal opinion. (sarcasm intended)

Mostly, I'm bummed that rather than this turning into a discussion about ways for people to modify or "house rule" (not necessarily do away with) a rule they find distracting, it quickly turned into the all too common, "...but the rule book says..." and "...it's official..." type of discussion.

To that end of being more positive myself:

Has anyone tried allowing shooting units to only shoot at the units they are engaged with, rather than anywhere on the field that is in range? My group has discussed this option, but not actually tried it out.

[RuneBrush]

56 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

 Agree with this.  My group tried changing this with the first few games and found shooting to be very poor as a result.   We really started loving the game once we played the rules as they were written rather than trying to change bits and pieces to conform more closely to what we were used to.  Initiative roll was the same.

Also, I personally don't immerse myself down to the level where shooting into and out of combat becomes a problem.  It's less imagining the combat on a one to one level, where a guy fighting with a sword and shooting a bow breaks some suspension of disbelief, and more the unit as a whole can do this, this, and this...etc. 

Think this sums it up   Being able to shoot at a different unit also adds some tactical decision in - do you try and pincushion the unit that is in your face, minimising casualties the next combat phase, or do you try and weaken a different enemy unit that may be buffing something or about to stab your general - but potentially sacrificing your shooting unit?

[Mikosan]

1 hour ago, warhammernerd said:

wihtout being able to do this ballistic shooting is tantamount to pointless given the speed units can engage in melee. 

 

 Agree with this.  My group tried changing this with the first few games and found shooting to be very poor as a result.   We really started loving the game once we played the rules as they were written rather than trying to change bits and pieces to conform more closely to what we were used to.  Initiative roll was the same.

Also, I personally don't immerse myself down to the level where shooting into and out of combat becomes a problem.  It's less imagining the combat on a one to one level, where a guy fighting with a sword and shooting a bow breaks some suspension of disbelief, and more the unit as a whole can do this, this, and this...etc. 

[warhammernerd]

Check the FAQs brah. Yes you can. It's in d'rules.

wihtout being able to do this ballistic shooting is tantamount to pointless given the speed units can engage in melee. 

Besides which, ain't you seen LOTR, Legolas made this look eeezeee.

[Turragor]

4 hours ago, pez5767 said:

I'd like to see some modification to this rule as well.  For me, it's not so much using the missile attack at a unit the shooter is engaged with as when the shooter shoots a different unit than the one he is engaged with.  The problem is, it breaks the narrative that garrzira describes above. To me it reads like,  "The Stormcast jumps over log to bash in the orruk's skull, then quickly looses his arrow into another [orruk who was standing 100yds away despite the fact that there were 10 more orruks within arms length also trying to bash in his skull]"

Well if we're going to be picky with shooting we have to be properly picky. So for instance, if arms length is combat and combat is base contact up to 1 inch (the range of most sword like weapons, roughly an arm) then a yard is roughly 3 inches on the tabletop (I really measured my arm!). So 100 yards is 300 inches and ain't nobody got that kinda range.  It's more like 30 yards max.

Having said that, I think your example that I needlessly nitpicked makes a good point in that there is no difference between in and out of combat weapon use. Shooting is as strong when from optimal range and unhindered as it is when surrounded by any number of enemies.

Even so, the sample narrative you mention and Shane's idea that AoS is larger than life (and what iteration of Warhammer has been grittily realistic?) are much more reasonable to me than any attempt at a realistic breakdown because we're symbollising 'orruk, aelf and magical' stuff rather than looking for anything realistic.

From a pure gameplay perspective, and with the inclusion of points, the units are costed for what they're doing (again as Shane said) on the table and shooting as a whole in the game is balanced around the way it works now. I guess the proof of this is that I can't think of a shooting unit or an elite shooting unit that is a match for the best melee units in the game.

[Naishy]

I think attempts to alter the rules on shooting come from comparisons to 8th edition.  The rules have been streamlined to reduce the intrinsic complexity.  

It is at the end of the day up to you and your gaming group but as DamonRafael and Ansuz point out changing the rules has a ripple impact upon warscrolls and factions.

For those that need some visual realization I would suggest going no further than last weeks Battle of the ****** in Game of Thrones

[Túrbóbelja]

I totally agree with you that the narrative seems odd. But I think this rule is written for AoS many artillery units. For example a Skaven plagueclaw engaged in close combat should be able to continue to fire across the battlefield.

[Ansuz]

Denying shooting in combat would seriously maim the Fyreslayers faction, since all our units and heroes are equiped with throwing axes.

[DamonRafael]

Narratively speaking I agree with you, but rules and WS are calibrated allowing shoot in close combat. Denying it means making a lot of shooting units almost useless

[spincterONtoast]

I like to think that a unit can fire into combat they are engaged in. Imagine Mr empire man with his musket kicking someone back and firinget at point blank, I think you should get a positive modifier to be honest.

[pez5767]

I'd like to see some modification to this rule as well.  For me, it's not so much using the missile attack at a unit the shooter is engaged with as when the shooter shoots a different unit than the one he is engaged with.  The problem is, it breaks the narrative that garrzira describes above. To me it reads like,  "The Stormcast jumps over log to bash in the orruk's skull, then quickly looses his arrow into another [orruk who was standing 100yds away despite the fact that there were 10 more orruks within arms length also trying to bash in his skull]"

[garrzira]

although i look forward to the handbooks take in this, I have actually changed my thinking, I used to agree with you they shouldn't be able to shoot while in melee, bit then I started thinking of it as"stormcast jumps over log to bash in the orruks skull, then quickly looses his arrow into another" instead of the rank and file I was used to