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New Points Target?


Solvanic

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2 hours ago, SuperHappyTime said:

Don't ruin Warhammer for new people again.

1000 Points should be a thing.

Make Age of Sigmar Great Again!

Agree and disagree.  

Communities should be responsible for incubating new players.  Bigger games are generally more fun.  Smaller games are more interesting due to limited choices - usually.  Most will gravitate to larger games.

In either scenario it's easier to get to big points now that there are start collecting boxes and centerpiece models are viable.  In 8th you almost never saw a dragon.  Now they're almost standard.

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10 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

Agree and disagree.  

Communities should be responsible for incubating new players.  Bigger games are generally more fun.  Smaller games are more interesting due to limited choices - usually.  Most will gravitate to larger games.

In either scenario it's easier to get to big points now that there are start collecting boxes and centerpiece models are viable.  In 8th you almost never saw a dragon.  Now they're almost standard.

1000 points is VERY small now I think, but people should make a list for it I'd say. I think the standard will be much larger though probably 2k+. Only then do some of the very good combinations become available. 

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The games I've been playing recently come out to about 1500 points.  They are a perfect size for me.  That translates to about 75 points in SCGT which is what we were using but with similar summoning rules to the new ones.

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4 hours ago, SuperHappyTime said:

Don't ruin Warhammer for new people again.

1000 Points should be a thing.

Make Age of Sigmar Great Again!

Yeah I agree that people should play a variety of sizes and encourage smaller games. The larger the army the more inhibitive to building a community. I'm not saying that tournaments shouldn't be run at 2k, but I never saw a game of 8th being played at less than that (usually more) and that's a massive barrier to entry for anyone.

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I think the points target will depend on what the group is trying to achieve.

I think for most groups, that are looking to encourage growth and bring in new players, 1000-1500 should be a good target.  The starter box has just about 1000pts of Stormcast Eternals in it, which means that is a wonderful level for a club or shop to build and organize around. Starting lower will encourage more people to join in the game and get involved, which should always be the goal.

I imagine tournament focused players will be settling in around 2000pts. or more; however, I hope these groups practice moderation initially, then play a while and see what things look like.  The traditional approach to tournament points has been to find the points total which allows the vast majority of combinations of optimal synergy builds.  This is all fine and good, but once a point level is set, rarely if ever does that points level drop.  Better to increase slowly than dive in too deep, too early.  

Finally, the sentiments that bigger games are more fun and better show the rules as they were designed to be played, are totally subjective, and frankly something I find really frustrating.  Both 40k and AoS play perfectly well from a squad level up to a mass battle.  The rules are designed to accommodate a huge array of game sizes (check the books), and frankly can be incredibly enjoyable or miserably frustrating regardless of the size of the game.  It is only when the community is guided by tournament organizers who set the "right" points level that this idea of what points level a game "should" be played at even comes up.

In the end, to each their own. I, for one, am excited by the many new faces I see showing up to play AoS, and I'll be doing my part to encourage movement towards growing the community, even if that means leaving a few of the old stalwarts behind.

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I'll build my armies around the 1000 points, just to have a list I can pick for random games. I will sill try to play free games, as I really like to put stuff I like on the table.

As said before, goal will be to have at least one army hitting the 2K, as most of the tournaments will probably be that size.

Actually 1000 points are not THAT small.

In my next 1000 points game I will set up:

1 Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut (140)

1 Bloodsecrator (120)

2x 3 Mighty Skullcrushers (320)

5 Blood warriors (100)

5 Wrathmongers (180)

5 Skullreapers (140)

which makes 23 models for 83 wounds, which is basically an average game for me :)

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I think we need to not lose sight that the points system in GHb is only one way to play the game, the GHb includes a number of other ways to play, plus the old systems we've been using (and enjoyed using) are actually still valid.  It's quite easy to focus on points, but my fear is we're going to start veering back towards the old days where you needed an army of a million models to play.  I also am highly entertained by the thought of playing peculiar points limits - 1324 points because you and your opponent fancied it :)

For any pitched battles I'm likely looking around the 1000 points as you can crack out a game in under 2 hours.  I personally prefer playing multiple smaller games in a day than one massive game (though that is personal preference).  The starter set contains about 700 points of Bloodbound in 29 models which is actually quite a nice size to play.  Bumping that up to the 1k isn't too much of a challenge (the opposite infact).

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As a newbie, I'm loving the fact that the starter box has got me well on the way to a 1000pt game, and I'm looking forward to diving straight in (as soon as everything's finished and painted!) and being able to start playing. I'm also looking forward to building an army up and playing larger games, and have my next six month's or so of purchases already mapped out with this intention. But I'm hoping there'll be a nice mix of games going on in the future too, purely because sometimes I won't have the time to play a 3000pt game very often but could definitely fit in at least one smaller game every week. Having to have a huge army ready to go straight away is what put me off getting back into the hobby for a long time, and it put me off other mass battle games either after starting to dip my toes in, so AoS has been massively refreshing for me and long may that continue :D 

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Building a few arguments for each side:

There's an awful lot of repeats for a few single factions (ex. Fyreslayers) if they were to be taken mono-faction at 2000 pts. 

On the other hand, 2000+ points should be easy to get to with some of the heavy hitters (Nagash, Archaeon)

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Just a little tidbit, me and my group did the points for all the start collecting boxes and they are all around 500  to 800 . This of course depends on how you build the models but is nice as they match up well to each side of the starter box. If a player bought 2 ($170 before discounts) they have a fully playable 1000 point army which is an awesome start for newer players and not a huge investment. You can then buy a monster or 2 and a couple more heroes or units and you are probably sitting at 2000 with a nice balanced army 

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We did 2,000 target today but wanted the one odd thing with Slayers and FEC stuff costing 80 (many armies do) so we ended on 2100. If I had to make premade lists for travel or spontaneous games or letting someone borrow a list to try I'd make 1,000, 2,000 , 2,200 and 2,500.

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4 hours ago, Stauderpower said:

Just a little tidbit, me and my group did the points for all the start collecting boxes and they are all around 500  to 800 . This of course depends on how you build the models but is nice as they match up well to each side of the starter box. If a player bought 2 ($170 before discounts) they have a fully playable 1000 point army which is an awesome start for newer players and not a huge investment. You can then buy a monster or 2 and a couple more heroes or units and you are probably sitting at 2000 with a nice balanced army 

Since the Starter Boxes come with formations, I'd assume you build them as per the formations.

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4 hours ago, Stauderpower said:

Just a little tidbit, me and my group did the points for all the start collecting boxes and they are all around 500  to 800 . This of course depends on how you build the models but is nice as they match up well to each side of the starter box. If a player bought 2 ($170 before discounts) they have a fully playable 1000 point army which is an awesome start for newer players and not a huge investment. You can then buy a monster or 2 and a couple more heroes or units and you are probably sitting at 2000 with a nice balanced army 

Since the Starter Boxes come with formations, I'd assume you build them as per the formations.

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Surely, even with points, the principles of open play carry over?

By that I mean - right now plenty of open players are trying to pick an army they like the look of then discussing with their opponent if there's balance and if not, which force is stronger. Then they edit or use the underdog/stronger force status to try to find a nice battleplan and set up a few handicap rules (say sudden death).

So say you make a 2,000 pt list you don't need to always find a person with 2,000 pts to play against right? You just know much more accurately and immediately that one side is stronger than the other. I'd wager that there are official battleplans for 2,000 v 1,500 or 2,000 v 1,000 on the way. That or someone will thrash out some nice scenarios.

Is the inclusion of points going to do what a lot of the 'points are bad' people claimed - force everyone to play 1 of 2 basic scenarios against the identical points size armies of your group-mates? Maybe even with lists that are never (or seldom) edited!

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13 minutes ago, Turragor said:

Is the inclusion of points going to do what a lot of the 'points are bad' people claimed - force everyone to play 1 of 2 basic scenarios against the identical points size armies of your group-mates? Maybe even with lists that ware never (or seldom) edited!

Yes and no. What you find with points is that people very quickly work out what gets the best bang for their buck and choose those units pretty much every time. So you can have the most fantastic looking models but if they are overpriced for what they can do, they will never ever get used.

From what I have seen, the points don't seem too bad for this, so it's all down to how the community uses the system. I think everything will be ok from what we've seen over the last year with the different comp systems

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1 hour ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Yes and no. What you find with points is that people very quickly work out what gets the best bang for their buck and choose those units pretty much every time. So you can have the most fantastic looking models but if they are overpriced for what they can do, they will never ever get used.

From what I have seen, the points don't seem too bad for this, so it's all down to how the community uses the system. I think everything will be ok from what we've seen over the last year with the different comp systems

I think these points are going to be used well at an organised tournament level. 

I also hope that people realise that the points are great for helping to roughly balance out open play games (with no restrictions) or accurately work out underdogs. IE I don't really want to see lots of equal strength games when the game isn't for a competition.

I kind of like the variety that has been springing up at a local, friendly level.

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34 minutes ago, Turragor said:

I think these points are going to be used well at an organised tournament level. 

Sorry what I meant was the units seem fairly evenly costed against each other. For example 5 Liberators is the same cost as 5 Blood Warriors and they have roughly the same stats and ability. So it means we are less likely to see armies from one alliance looking the same as each other. 

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