Balance problems?

[Lazaris]

Hi guys,

I played 5 games this weekend, and I didn't see the bloodbound win once. I realize 5 games is not a lot, but I still find some game mechanics clunky with the starter set.

As a bloodbound, most of your warriors can get one-shot by the stormcast, but your objectives (capture points, kill guys) force you to play aggressively to score glory points.
Sending your 2 HP guys together will most likely have them killed without doing anything (having swords instead of hammers is soooo unreliable), and sending your big brutes at the beginning of the game is suicidal for the rest of the game.

On the other hand, as a Stormcast, your objectives are mostly about survival and map control (making sure that your enemy doesn't grab objectives or doesn't come in your half of the board). Not only you can literally sit back and wait for the bloodbound to come at you, but you are also rewarded if you do so: your warriors will get inspired as soon as they get attacked, and none of the bloodbound can really damage your warriors if you pack them.

At first I thought it was because I sucked and I didn't play tactically enough, and the stormcast were easier for beginners, but then I realized that not only the bloodbound are harder to play, but all of their objectives reward 1 glory point, while stormcasts' objectives reward 1-3 points. More risk, less reward... wtf.

Let me know what you think.

Edit: I forgot to mention the fact that you activate minis one by one, so having a more numerous warband provides very little bonuses. I really don't get it.

[Killax]

I'm sorry to say but this indeed really sounds like an example of "one player not getting it". However the Let's Chats are there to cover tactical issues aswell. Here I can only speak from my own experience and depending per opponent I've seen Garrek's Reavers actually win more games as Steelheart. What remained essential for these games is that the Reaver player didn't play into Steelheart's advantages, which is defensive 1 vs 1 combat. Whenever that occurs or cannot be avoided (at all) the best way for Reavers to come out of that scenario is to go for Objective play, something that is much easier to do with multiple mini's. To the point where I believe Sepulchral Guard will dominate Objectives when played well.

A couple of things to cover is that indeed 5 games are way too little to form any solid judgement. Keep in mind the following:
- Not all Reavers die in a single hit, Garrek doesn't, nor do Saek and Karsus against Angharad. Thaking out Angharad first is the easies path to Glory for Garrek's Reavers.
- Bloodreavers win by preforming 2 vs 1 attacks, their charges are worth the effort from the getgo. In addition any defensive card you can play for Saek or Karsus is a priority card to play at the right time. 
- Bloodreavers thake over the game versus Stormcast the moment you destroy any two of them and still have Garrek, Saek and Karsus left. Note that going for 2 vs 1 combats doesn't only assist you in offense but defence too.

Stormcast get great benifits out of picking the right board and ideally bottlenecking that board. If this happens spread Objectives as much as possible to ensure that charging out of an Objective position is very hard to do for them, basically use the edges of a bogged down board to your advantage, in the sence that they are either commiting to Objectives or cannot help out others from a 2 vs 1 situation.

Playing the game is essential though and understanding when to be aggressive and when not with Bloodreavers is the key to succes. Remember that you want to 2 vs 1 them and in the process of setting this up can still lead with Objective based movements first. In the end game where Bloodreavers have movement 5 edged Objectives also work into your advantage as we often have ways to reach that where other Warbands do not.

[Lazaris]

Thanks for your constructive answer. However I do see some problems in what you suggest:

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the best way for Reavers to come out of that scenario is to go for Objective play, something that is much easier to do with multiple mini's.

Getting objectives will only reward you 1 glory point, and if you are unlucky with your objective cards/objective placement by your opponent, it may require a LOT of movement (which sucks in a game where you can only move a character once per turn and you have three turns).

On the other hand, the stormcasts have objectives that reward them 3 glory points for keeping you out of their board or just staying alive (lol). They can literally barricade their half of the board, kill anyone that comes in and win by attrition.

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Playing the game is essential though and understanding when to be aggressive and when not with Bloodreavers is the key to succes.

That's actually the problem I'm poiting out. The reavers require a lot of planning, and will most likely not get many glory points. The Stormcast on the other hand can chill in their corner and rack up the points easily.

[Killax]

12 minutes ago, Lazaris said:

Getting objectives will only reward you 1 glory point, and if you are unlucky with your objective cards/objective placement by your opponent, it may require a LOT of movement (which sucks in a game where you can only move a character once per turn and you have three turns).

On the other hand, the stormcasts have objectives that reward them 3 glory points for keeping you out of their board or just staying alive (lol). They can literally barricade their half of the board, kill anyone that comes in and win by attrition.

That's actually the problem I'm poiting out. The reavers require a lot of planning, and will most likely not get many glory points. The Stormcast on the other hand can chill in their corner and rack up the points easily.

Getting multiple glory points is a possibility through Objectives the moment you obtain these multiple Bloodreavers are capable of single hitting Stormcasts aswell. This is the key to succes for the lategame in any Bloodreaver Warband. If you are unlucky with Objective cards, mulligan them, if you are "unlucky" with Objective placement you should hone that skill. A LOT of movement is exactly what Bloodreavers have  

If your opponent can keep you out of the board he's still spending activations on charges. If they "barricade" you should still be able to 2 vs 1 them aswell. 

There is no real issue to point out, as Stormcast also require a lot of planning and most likely will have more trouble playing onto Objectives because they are slower. The Bloodreavers on the other hand, when played well, should be capable to dominate in combat and set up for 2 vs 1 charges. If you even have one defensive card to keep your Bloodreavers around a Stormcast player has a lot of problems doing anything back.

The advantage you have with Bloodreavers is movement and numbers. If you cannot use this to your advantage you are more likely playing the Warband incorrectly. Board and objective placement are steps that need to be taken into considertion. If your Stormcast opponent can "barricade" and still play for Objectives too you've done something wrong in Objective placement.

Succes story Bloodreavers versus Stormcast is spreading them out and combating 2 vs 1.
Succes story Stormcast versus Bloodreavers is bogging them down and combating 1 vs 1.

[CJPT]

I think you're right that Bloodbound take longer to 'click' than Stormcast do, but they're very powerful - I have won more games than I've lost with them so far, exclusively playing against the Liberators. For one thing, it's not accurate to say that all of the Bloodbound objectives are only worth one point: the most valuable objective card in the core set, Khorne's Champion (6 glory points!) is theirs - and your opponent needs to be VERY careful to make sure it doesn't trigger.

To use card game terminology, Bloodbound are very much a 'tempo' based warband: they determine the pace of the game and have the ability to get out of control very early if your opponent doesn't do something to slow them down. Don't see objectives as 'only 1 point' - see them as 'one upgrade'. As Khorne, you have the ability to score 1-3 vital points very early without actually needing to do very much. If you get lucky with your initial hand of objective cards, you might be able to get 2 points simply by capping objective markers. If not, cards like It Begins and A Worthy Skull give you something to aim for that can earn you a stack of glory points all at once, even if each card is only worth 1. And those points can be immediately turned into upgrades for your surviving fighters, which makes you much scarier.

The thing about playing a tempo game, however, is it means you have to be planning ahead. Stormcast are much better at adapting to a situation gone south, I find, as all of their fighters are reliably good so a surprise death, while painful, can be recovered from. It's much harder for Bloodbound to come back if your opponent reveals a brilliant series of ploys that eliminates your best fighters. However, that's why Khorne's Champion is so useful - it means they can't ignore the guy you've got standing at the back either.

Hope that's helpful. There's loads of depth to this game, and I'd encourage you to keep digging as I think it's pretty finely balanced at the moment.

[Lazaris]

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if you are "unlucky" with Objective placement you should hone that skill.

Please correct me if I misunderstood the rules, but you're only placing half of the objectives at best. You can be extremely good but still cannot reach objectives that have been placed behind the Stormcast line.

As for "your advantage is numbers", I still don't believe in that.

In any case, you'll active only 12 times, and you activate one model at a time, same as the Stormcast. The two theoretical advantages you get by being more numerous are:

- It allows you to spread for objectives, but if you do, you get killed easily in 1v1.
- It allows you to charge Stormcasts in 2v1, but since you have to do it in at least 2 activations, that leaves enough time for the Stormcast to either: counterattack the first guy that charged them and kill him, or even get inspired and start doing area damage once the 2nd guy charges them.

[CJPT]

1 minute ago, Lazaris said:

As for "your advantage is numbers", I still don't believe in that.

The Move/Charge mechanics are key to understanding why numbers are such a big deal. If a Stormcast hero charges, they're useless for the rest of the turn without a ploy to let them fight again. If they move, they can't subsequently move or charge - so if you manage to hit them and push them away, they have to twiddle their thumbs unless they have a ranged weapon (which is only upgraded Severin, I think.)

This means that if a Stormcast player isn't careful, they can find themselves in a situation where they have activations to use and nothing to do with them except discard/draw cards. Let's say one Stormcast is dead and the other two charged this turn - there's literally nothing else they can do for the remaining two activations.

A Bloodbound player, however, can use all four activations on charges in a single turn. Or fight with one character and have the others reposition or claim objectives. And if the Stormcast push one character away, chances are you have more that can pile in. It's a huge tempo advantage.

[Lazaris]

15 minutes ago, CJPT said:

the most valuable objective card in the core set, Khorne's Champion (6 glory points!) is theirs - and your opponent needs to be VERY careful to make sure it doesn't trigger.

Doesn't that require killing ALL Stormcasts while also losing 4 of your 5 guys? I think defending against that is much easier than trying to achieve it (and defending against that synergizes with other Stormcast objectives, such as keeping all characters alive).

[CJPT]

1 minute ago, Lazaris said:

Doesn't that require killing ALL Stormcasts while also losing 4 of your 5 guys? I think defending against that is much easier than trying to achieve it (and defending against that synergizes with other Stormcast objectives, such as keeping all characters alive).

It does, but all of the Bloodbound characters are good when inspired and upgraded, and most of them have a chance of 1-shotting a Stormcast at that point.

[TheOtherJosh]

4 minutes ago, Lazaris said:

Doesn't that require killing ALL Stormcasts while also losing 4 of your 5 guys? I think defending against that is much easier than trying to achieve it (and defending against that synergizes with other Stormcast objectives, such as keeping all characters alive).

Don’t forget that as Bloodbound there is at least one ploy where you can kill your own.

[Killax]

44 minutes ago, Lazaris said:

Please correct me if I misunderstood the rules, but you're only placing half of the objectives at best. You can be extremely good but still cannot reach objectives that have been placed behind the Stormcast line.

As for "your advantage is numbers", I still don't believe in that.

In any case, you'll active only 12 times, and you activate one model at a time, same as the Stormcast. The two theoretical advantages you get by being more numerous are:

- It allows you to spread for objectives, but if you do, you get killed easily in 1v1.
- It allows you to charge Stormcasts in 2v1, but since you have to do it in at least 2 activations, that leaves enough time for the Stormcast to either: counterattack the first guy that charged them and kill him, or even get inspired and start doing area damage once the 2nd guy charges them.

You can actually reach objectives that have been placed behind "the Stormcast line". The true question is if you need to, based on the information you've obainted before that. There is a really long topic one could write about this and board placement, as before I could go into this but would strongly suggest playing more.

The advantage is numbers, the advantage only applies when you use it wisely. To give these objective numbers a value, think of it like this:
- Stormcast can only use 3 activations to Move or Charge. Charges are double activations in essence and absolutely worth it if you can assist another warrior, as the assistance applies for offense and defence in particular areas. Bloodreavers should use this fact to their advantage at all times. A succesful or 'draw' attack allows you to still push your opponent away. This means Stormcast will have to move and their numbered Movements and Charges becomes a liability.
- Bloodreavers can use 4 activations to Move or Charge. This means that however you turn these numbers you've got more movement, not only 1-2 additional square, a whole 4-5 with a different model. Claiming Objectives is actually better done with Bloodreavers (Targor) as you can do it with Stormcast. Based on the option to Move 4 models you can claim objectives better.
- Bloodreavers by comparison have more wounds as the Stormcast Warband. It's 12 wounds on 3 bodies versus 14 spread over 5. In other words, Bloodreavers have the option to thake the iniative but also bait in opponents by using either Targor or Arnulf as 'easy bait'. If this allows you to force your opponent to charge, thus spending the whole activation of a particular model and 2 vs 1 that model your jumping ahead in the game quickly. 

So while you state 'Activate' only 12 times it's much more important to evaluate Activations and the use for them altogether. If you evaluate your numbers correctly you'll see that Stormcast can only move or charge 9 times and Bloodreavers can move or charge 12 times. Then you have more 'objective reach' due to movement and the option to 'bait'. Use the above three facts to your advantage, this advantage is shorthand for "numbers" because they are numberical advantages Stormcast cannot obtain. 

25 minutes ago, CJPT said:

It does, but all of the Bloodbound characters are good when inspired and upgraded, and most of them have a chance of 1-shotting a Stormcast at that point.

That and so do the Upgrades. Playing Reavers correctly the first turn is as important as a Stormcast player understanding that he should play defensively and choose battles wisely. 

Leading to a short and correct balance, punish mistakes and reconize them, otherwise with Bloodreavers maximize the Movement 4 and claim objectives early in the battle. This in turn forces Stormcast to spread out and easier lead to 2 vs 1 situations.

Before this all occurs to it's also important to understand that to optimize Bloodreavers the boards are placed with the maximum ammount of hexagons touching each other. It effectively creates the biggest "effective area of play" which in turn rewards Movement 4-5 better. The moment the outermost edges are in effect it common to see a game revolve around the middle of the board. At that moment Movement 4-5 is not optimized.

As before though, this has less to do with balance and much more with understanding the pro's and con's of Warbands.

[Attackmack]

One thing that bothers me is that when rolling off before placing boards, the winner of the roll-off doesnt get to choose who places the first board. This is important because the winner that places the second board (and dictates the layout) will only place 2 of the 5 objectives.

As bloodbound i think i prefer placing 3 objectives.

[Killax]

8 minutes ago, Attackmack said:

One thing that bothers me is that when rolling off before placing boards, the winner of the roll-off doesnt get to choose who places the first board. This is important because the winner that places the second board (and dictates the layout) will only place 2 of the 5 objectives.

As bloodbound i think i prefer placing 3 objectives.

Yeah thats the balance.

Everybody wants 3 Objectives.

Bloodreavers want to have the most relevant board space too (e.g. not bottlenecked).

[Attackmack]

29 minutes ago, Killax said:

Yeah thats the balance.

Everybody wants 3 Objectives.

Bloodreavers want to have the most relevant board space too (e.g. not bottlenecked).

Yeah I think the balance between placing objectives and deciding board layout is perfect, but the winner of the roll should be allowed the choice of placing the first or second board.

 

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, Attackmack said:

Yeah I think the balance between placing objectives and deciding board layout is perfect, but the winner of the roll should be allowed the choice of placing the first or second board.

Sometimes pre-game choices like that are removed on purpose for speeding up the start of the game.
In my opinion the task has to be done either way and doesn't need another 3 minutes of thought on wether or not you want to do it yourself  

[Attackmack]

Just now, Killax said:

Sometimes pre-game choices like that are removed on purpose for speeding up the start of the game.
In my opinion the task has to be done either way and doesn't need another 3 minutes of thought on wether or not you want to do it yourself  

Yeah well if that choice takes 3minutes you probably need to rethink your strategy  

Seriously though, I get your point and kind of agree. But in the other situations we roll-off (deployment, round start) the winner of the roll gets the choice. This just seem inconsistent. Either offer the choice in all situations or dont offer it at all.

Im would say its an oversight but considering how extremely tight and well written the rulebook seem to be I kind of doubt it.

[Keldaur]

The reason is because it does nothing for the game and it only works to give a false sense of control on a competitive setting. In a competitive setting you are expected to know how to play the matchups. If you want to create a bottleneck and your opponent wants to stop it, it's a 50% way, no matter if you can choose or you cannot. If your opponent wants to create a bottleneck and you want objective, it's still a 50% you both get what you want, or you both get the oppossite. And so on and so on. 

In this sense, it's useless to let the player choose except if you want to give your players a false sense of control. 

[Rhellion]

I've been successful with Khorne so far playing no objectives in my deck. In fact I have been playing the destroy objective card.

[Rhellion]

2 hours ago, Attackmack said:

One thing that bothers me is that when rolling off before placing boards, the winner of the roll-off doesnt get to choose who places the first board. This is important because the winner that places the second board (and dictates the layout) will only place 2 of the 5 objectives.

As bloodbound i think i prefer placing 3 objectives.

So "losing" the roll is winning the roll for you. No different than if winning the roll gave you the choice. Since you would choose to place first.

[Elodin]

5 hours ago, Lazaris said:

Please correct me if I misunderstood the rules, but you're only placing half of the objectives at best. You can be extremely good but still cannot reach objectives that have been placed behind the Stormcast line.

As for "your advantage is numbers", I still don't believe in that.

In any case, you'll active only 12 times, and you activate one model at a time, same as the Stormcast. The two theoretical advantages you get by being more numerous are:

- It allows you to spread for objectives, but if you do, you get killed easily in 1v1.
- It allows you to charge Stormcasts in 2v1, but since you have to do it in at least 2 activations, that leaves enough time for the Stormcast to either: counterattack the first guy that charged them and kill him, or even get inspired and start doing area damage once the 2nd guy charges them.

 

Not to be rude, but I feel like you’re going to be set in your ways no matter what unless someone gives you a flowchart to win.

By your logic, getting the opponents objectives is difficult, but then you say splitting up to hold multiple objectives means the slower Stormcasts will be able to easily kill you. 

The fact that you have multiple models means you can, for example, use two activations to take two Reavers to one objective, use two activations to move two Reavers to another, and (if you have a movement card like Sidestep) slide the final one over to a third. Also considering they have fairly easy Glory points to get early on (make three charges, one person from each warband died) you can start putting out the upgrades and that’s when they shine. 

Bloodbound are more difficult than Steelheart’s, but to say that 5 bad games = imbalanced warbands is just silly. 

[Mikester1487]

6 hours ago, CJPT said:

The Move/Charge mechanics are key to understanding why numbers are such a big deal. If a Stormcast hero charges, they're useless for the rest of the turn without a ploy to let them fight again. If they move, they can't subsequently move or charge - so if you manage to hit them and push them away, they have to twiddle their thumbs unless they have a ranged weapon (which is only upgraded Severin, I think.)

This means that if a Stormcast player isn't careful, they can find themselves in a situation where they have activations to use and nothing to do with them except discard/draw cards. Let's say one Stormcast is dead and the other two charged this turn - there's literally nothing else they can do for the remaining two activations.

A Bloodbound player, however, can use all four activations on charges in a single turn. Or fight with one character and have the others reposition or claim objectives. And if the Stormcast push one character away, chances are you have more that can pile in. It's a huge tempo advantage.

This perfectly describes my game with stormcast.  Charged steelheart in, whiffed the damage rolls and he was dead in the first phase.

I've only had the one game in so far and I'm sure there's many other lessons to learn but I think both of the in box armies are balanced pretty well.

[angrycontra]

Kinda funny that in the 3 games I've played, SCE got almost always wiped out. To me SCE feel almost like they're relying too much on lucky dice rolls to block those attacks. Still 2 games ended in draw and bloodbound won one. As said above, advantage of having extra models is that you can charge more freely. Plus bb have some neat easy to do objectives like get everyone across to enemy board or just get bunch of guys killed (own or opponent's).

[Lazaris]

45 minutes ago, Elodin said:

 

Not to be rude, but I feel like you’re going to be set in your ways no matter what unless someone gives you a flowchart to win.

By your logic, getting the opponents objectives is difficult, but then you say splitting up to hold multiple objectives means the slower Stormcasts will be able to easily kill you. 

The fact that you have multiple models means you can, for example, use two activations to take two Reavers to one objective, use two activations to move two Reavers to another, and (if you have a movement card like Sidestep) slide the final one over to a third. Also considering they have fairly easy Glory points to get early on (make three charges, one person from each warband died) you can start putting out the upgrades and that’s when they shine. 

Bloodbound are more difficult than Steelheart’s, but to say that 5 bad games = imbalanced warbands is just silly. 

I'm actually quite happy about some of the answers I got. I'm just a bit puzzled by the fact that reavers require so much planning while a braindead stormcast has so many tools available to cancel those plans on the spot.

Edit: I realise I may sound stubborn and I apologize for this. It's just that I played both warbands and in both cases the reavers were nowhere close to a victory... quite the opposite actually. I'll play more and follow your advice to see if it gets better!

[TheOtherJosh]

So, Having played with SCE in my first Battle ... while SCE are more likely to hit, at the point of 3 dead units on the board ... all of the Bloodbound have just inspired.

 Obyron didn’t inspire the entire game for me ... (though steel heart and brightshield did early on.)

While SCE hits easier (using hammers not swords) ... loosing an individual felt substantially more painful. And poor draws from the objective deck also were painful. (All of the capture objectives were on the other side of the map in my opponents territory.)

While I did manage to complete an objective after death of my entire force, so did my opponent (by killing off his second to last man.)

[Fredster001]

Lots of tactical advice can be helpful, however I would just advise playing more games. I agree with the points made about needing to play a lot more. The beauty of this system is that you'll be able to pack 5-6 games in an evening, so your learning curve will be much more quicker. Not winning with the Reavers - try different tactics, that didn't work, try something else, and your still in hour 1!

I have played 6 games so far and am 3/3 with the Reavers, a lot of what was said above either aided me for the win or worked against me when the SC player got it right and I got it wrong so it's good advice. 

Given the multiple layers; board placement, objective placement, card hand, figure stats, figure placement, each of which have further combos, by my amateurish calculations, you'll need about 50 games to make a judgement on balance.