Let's chat: Sepulchral Guard

[Sleboda]

We had our first 4-way games last night and while I still prefer 2-player, it was better than 3-player.

The dynamic is just better,  and the Hold options were more workable. All of us felt more involved.

I would recommend the removal of the Tactical Supremacy cards in a Guard Objective Deck, since they don't "scale" like the Holds do. 

[Killax]

Can only agree, suffered a couple of defeats against Reavers but otherwise the Objective based deck remains solid.

Am considering On your Feet for Sepulchral Guard too, to give them an edge in sustainability, for what, I dont know. 

Otherwise not huge on coinflip Ploys but On your Feet I do like for various reasons

[Skarloc]

I've assembled a Sepulchral Guard warband today.. From a miniature's perspective, I found those so tiny.. Whatever other miniature I compare them with (Tree-Revenant, Dryad, Blood Reaver, Acolyte, ..), those skeleton's are one head shorter..

Anyone feels the same?

 

[Killax]

57 minutes ago, Skarloc said:

I've assembled a Sepulchral Guard warband today.. From a miniature's perspective, I found those so tiny.. Whatever other miniature I compare them with (Tree-Revenant, Dryad, Blood Reaver, Acolyte, ..), those skeleton's are one head shorter..

Anyone feels the same?

 

Yeah they are in line with the current human sizes models and Undead Warriors. Suprisingly though their hands are actually bigger as the regular Undead Warrior hands. Which leads to some oddities if your willing to convert (like me).

Thing is that the newer ranges have been growing. The latest Garrek's Reavers are huge models, so are the Ironskull Boyz  

[Keith]

How big is your deck getting ?

I'm at 24 cards now ,I cant seem to cut it back to 20

Every time I go through my deck I to cut something I want to add more cards.

 

[Killax]

@Keith still floating between 20 and 22 but I quite like it. I havn't found a reason to go larger yet. Most of the time making more room for Upgrades that are only relevant in one specific phase (be it 1,2 or 3) isn't really required. In addition key Ploys are easier to find if you don't mud the pool too much. Though Duel of Wits most certainly leads to easy 22 card builds. Except when your opponent suddenly waits very long with playing Ploys  

[Wallack]

I'm actually thinking on making a 30 card deck and if the first hand is full of upgrades just discard it and dilute it down to a 15 ploys 10 upgrades (or 14 ploys 11 upgrades or whatever ratio) but don't play enough to experiment.

 

[Killax]

26 minutes ago, Wallack said:

I'm actually thinking on making a 30 card deck and if the first hand is full of upgrades just discard it and dilute it down to a 15 ploys 10 upgrades (or 14 ploys 11 upgrades or whatever ratio) but don't play enough to experiment.

The prime reason for me to not go that route is because you can know all the cards you will see throughout a game and this in itself is a great advantage. It's also why I believe Dual of Wits allows for 22 card Power decks but after that your still working with a minor disadvantage up until more draw Power card Ploys are released that have an easy trigger to resolve. For Sepulchral Guard there arn't any Ploys who draw additional cards. Garrek's Reavers do have one but it can only trigger if an enemy is taken out of action and that really is the most difficult thing to trigger.

Thus so far I havn't really found a reason to go well above and beyond 22 cards. This can offcourse change in the future. The worry isn't so much starting with a 5 Upgrade hand but much more not finding your key Ploys and key Upgrades. To give some examples of great Upgrades for Sepulchral Guard one can think of Lethal Lunge, Grim Cleave (especially in the Stormcast/Orruk match up) or Fatal Blow (especially in the mirror and Bloodreaver match up), Great Strenght, Soul Trap, Shadeglass Darts, Shardcaller (really before the Keys even because else your Keys are too random) or a whole slew of other cards.

In addition I'm also very interested in players who want to go for those 12+ ploys and 12+ upgrades because I personally have not found a reason to include certain cards at all. E.g. Great Speed is nice but niche, sometimes you simply don't need it because you have Shadeglass Darts or Lethal Lunge etc, Great Fortitude is nice but niche, in many cases for Dodge defences a non-kill thanks to Soultrap is often better because it means models with say 5 health now can't be thaken out by a combination of a 3 damage striker and 2 damage striker. In this scenario an opponent might attempt to kill a model with 3 health with a 3 damage model first (Saek vs Harvester for example) and if there is no second 3 damage striker the Soultrap is objectively better as the potential 4 health you would have otherwise because Soultrap does "ignore" damage where Great Fortitude does not. 

So anyone can really experiment however they want to however in quite some cases with the small card pool I still wouldn't go too deep. Adding any random Upgrade and a Duel of Wits at least balances out with each other because Duel of Wits essentially is a +1 draw, meaning 22 cards with a Duel of Wits (early) still leads to the same pool, with the advantage of Duel of Wits being that you can increase your hand size for at least one round leading to more likely finding key Upgrades. Though the risk taken here is that a late Duel of Wits doesn't do as much for you as the effective flexability of Upgrades decreases by loss of relevant fighters. 

[Keith]

I had my ****** handed to me in my last 5 games vs aggressive decks , Orruks twice and then 3 times by Khorne.

A couple of the games were close , losing by 2 or less glory.

I have been playing the objective type game , but the enemy come at me so quick and rack up the kills , I cant seem to grab objectives , hold them off and kill them at the same time.

I think I can correct my play in a few areas , but I'm wondering if there is aggressive way to play Sepuchral Guard ?

 

[Killax]

16 minutes ago, Keith said:

I had my ****** handed to me in my last 5 games vs aggressive decks , Orruks twice and then 3 times by Khorne.

A couple of the games were close , losing by 2 or less glory.

I have been playing the objective type game , but the enemy come at me so quick and rack up the kills , I cant seem to grab objectives , hold them off and kill them at the same time.

I think I can correct my play in a few areas , but I'm wondering if there is aggressive way to play Sepuchral Guard ?

 

There is an aggressive way but it completely depends on your deck if you want to ensue that plan. 

I will say that Garrek's Reavers certainly is the most difficult match up, by large because Grisly Trophy can snow-ball Glory extremely quickly, too much if Garrek is furthermore protected by Soultrap and/or On Your Feet and/or other offensive upgrades. 

As above though, 24 cards in a Power deck does clutter tactical goals and because of that I really would have to know what your playing with in order to comment on going aggressive or not. In both match ups the Harvester is important too, there is nothing wrong with using it as your prime attacker in this match up. Return, swing etc.

[zabbraxas]

42 minutes ago, Keith said:

I'm wondering if there is aggressive way to play Sepuchral Guard ?

I got a lot (but like A LOT) of game with the guard and the objective deck got an big problem of consistancy, if your opponent know you play objectif (if you play best of 3 it will be the case after the first game) he can deny you pretty easily by putting the objectif on the other side of the battleground where your move 2 skeleton can never reach them and even worth by setting the board in a line.

Aggressive deck need a little more practice, the board placement and the deployment of your band are the key of efficiency. But when you get use to it you can face anything  (ok the "pacifist" stormcast deck hidden on the other side of the board is a problem) so i think aggressive is the way to go with the skeleton if you want to play competitive.

One more thing if you play multiplayer game the objective deck work verry well and was pretty fun to play.

If you want to give a shot the deck of the blood and glory tournament who was verry aggressive
 

Spoiler

 

Ploys
    068 bone sharpnel    
    069 Ceasless Attacks    
    070 clawing hands    
    073 Rentless Dead
    076 Terrifying Screams
    077 the necromancer command
    315 Daylight roberry    
    318 distratction
    320 Duel of Wits
    360 sidestep
    
Upgrades

    080 deathly charge
    081 fatal stike
    083 frightening speed
    084 grim cleave
    085 Lethal Lunge
    087 undying
    382 daemonic weapon
    391 great strengh
    402 legendary swiftness
    414 shadowglass sword

Objectives

    59 Battle without end
    62 march of the dead
    63 more able bodies
    65 Skills Unforgotten
    250 crushing force
    253 denial
    254 detemined defender
    259 flawless strategy
    282 Ploymaster
    291 Superiror tactician
    292 Sumperamacy
    305 victorious duel

 

And (advertisment time) me and killax talk a little more in deep of this deck in our shadespire podcast (avaible this  friday on the link below)

[Goblin-King]

Seems to me that an objective focused Sepulchral Guard is pretty "boned" if they don't start with 3 objectives.
Is the game winnable if they only start with two?

[Killax]

1 hour ago, Goblin-King said:

Seems to me that an objective focused Sepulchral Guard is pretty "boned" if they don't start with 3 objectives.
Is the game winnable if they only start with two?

Certainly, though Shardcaller becomes more important offcourse as you do want to stay in the game. In addition going aggressive is still fully possible with the ploy set up. As with all decks though since the clarification of Time Trap it's very likely that it should be in this deck also. Same really applies for the Mighty Swing despite the Harvester allready having such an attack. 

What's certainly true is that Shardfall and Shifting Shards has become a whole lot better now that it's clarified that you can place a token on top of a token and can push objectives into blocked territory. This certainly will affect the use of Shardfall for me, which I now deem as a auto inclusion aswell. Especially for a best of three game where you have a good insight of what your opponents deck is all about.



 

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, Goblin-King said:

Seems to me that an objective focused Sepulchral Guard is pretty "boned" if they don't start with 3 objectives.
Is the game winnable if they only start with two?

Up until the new FAQ that messes up Sprint, I would have said it isn't very hard to claim any deeply buried objective.

Now it is much harder. 

Can still win,  but you have much less control over the outcome.

[Killax]

That and it's very likely Time Trap should be played in every deck also. As before I initially skipped on it because I was eagerly awaiting the FAQ, now we know what it does it means you have even more reason to play it, applies for all but specifically also Sepulchral Guard because:

1. You can return + charge with returned fighter (assuming that fighter didn't charge before)
2. You can return two fighters (flipping The Warden and inspired Sepulchral Guard do have Movement 3)
3. You can Move four fighters
4. You can do all the regular double Actions that other Warbands can do with Time Trap too

Now based on that I would like redevice the Ploys into the following 10, which is ever so slightly more aggressive but otherwise very much akin to what's great to run allready
69. Ceaseless Attacks
71. Danse Macabre
73. Restless Dead
76. Terrifying Screams
77. The Necromancer Commands
311. Confusion
318. Distraction
332. Illusory Fighter
355. Shardfall
368. Time Trap

Frankly speaking though there are a ton of great cards that can be included and really Mighty Swing could also be used here, the only reason why I am less convinced it is needed here is the Harvester. In addition it's still an amazingly offensive Ploy set and while it isn't very likely that you'll reach the opponent's Objectives by moving this applies for all Warbands, even Garrek's Reavers as making use of your Movement 4 means you want to be further back from your opponent too. Shardcaller is really where the fun starts. I still run Ancient Commander too. 

While Shardfall is stronger as before, most of the time Activation 1 Action 1 moving two Petitoners to Objectives still is the best route of Action.
Warhammer Underworlds really rewards the player with patience and thought. Let them come to you. Time Trap is even better if your allready in combat.

[Keith]

Yeah I always have time trap in my decks , but for the 2nd activation I always seem to go for a kill and roll really bad , or they roll a crit in defence

Then they have two goes to deal some damage.

 

[Biboune]

Hi,

I have played something like 5 games with the guards, mostly against orcs, and i always had only 2 objectives in my territory. Most of the time the result was equality or a victory.

I could chose the board, i took "the stairs" and bootleneck with the maximum of blocked hex in the way of the enemy.

As i had only 2 objectives in my territory, sometime it was not 1 and 2 or 3 or 4 helping to score some tactical supremacy; if i had not the shardercaller upgrade or the good key in my starting hand i strongly thought to mullingan.

March of the dead is a good objective; not dice to roll, 100% chances to score it round 1, you can run away from the enemy and take objectives...

Peerless General is quite good too; you still can resurrected a guy one or two time (as long that is the same one, the warden won't inspire) and manage to get him killed (ok that is not on you).

If you run away with the first one, you have good chances to score the second; only the reavers can hunt you all the way. And again, a very good starting ploy hand, or shardercaller or the/a key is important to score some hold objective/tactical supremacy.

If the enemy have denial, contained and conquest is his last hand... ok you are quite doomed. I have sprint in my deck for situations like this (and to grab a last objective in the enemy territory); situational, not always useful, but it can still  be discarded in few occasions and it is a card that can steal a victory almost by itself.

 

For the moment, the guard is the band i enjoyed to play the most (with the reavers, but they are more, more luck dependent), they can play hold objectives and fight with the same deck, 1 to 3 cleave, 3 fighters hitting on hammers etc.

 

[Killax]

@Biboune excellent write up! Yeah I think that for most boards the advantages and disadvantages per game so far havn't been extremely significant for me. Sometimes you get stuck thanks to a Shardfall but Shardfall still isn't an auto-include in all decks so the mobility isn't a massive factor. To me choking the board is though or playing on a long board. Though the cool think remains that Sepulchral Guard play their defensive game very well and most other Warbands do not have the same type of defensive play option, which is why I think some might have trouble with SG if they expect it to work akin to AoS, where just going into melee is always a good plan.

I like March of the Dead, Peerless General and More Able Bodies too, it really is all optional and depends on Shardcaller being in the deck aswell. Obviously more offensive cards support a more offensive playstyle. The fun thing about SG and Steelheart's Champion is that many of their basic attacks are allready really good and becomming Inspired isn't too difficult or comes with a disadvantage  

Denial and Containment arn't extremely difficult to stop in my opinion but it does require the inclusion of Time Trap and Illusory Fighter. Not so much in combination or anything but this way you can ensure you'll reach your opponent's side of the board. At that point stopping that fighter requires a Denial or fighter to be there to push you back (which is very difficult to do if an opponent is otherwise in your territory) as pushes can only be done further away and can't become "pulls".

I personally enjoy all Warbands but do really love the numbers and additional action the Sepulchral Guard come with. It makes them all the harder to predict. In addition Sepulchral Guard have the best exclusive ploys in the game right now offcoure. Who wouldn't want to return a capable fighter?  

[Necromancer Commands]

I'm going to share my deck that I build. Having relatively good results with it so far

Objectives (12/12)
- Hold Objective 1/2/3/4/5
- Tactical Supremacy 1-2
- Tactical Supremacy 3-4
- Supremacy
- Determined Defender
- Flawless Strategy
- Skills Unforgotten
- Ploymaster

Ploys (10/10)
- Restless Dead
- The Necormancer Commands
- Ceaseless Attacks
- Danse Macabre
- Terrifying Screams
- Confusion
- Illusory Fighter
- Time Trap
- Duel of Wits
- Shardfall

Upgrades (10/10)
- Leathal Lunge
- Deathly Charge
- Grim Cleave
- Great Strength
- Shadeglass Darts
- Frightening Speed
- Soultrap
- Shardcaller
- The Shadow Key
- The Dazzling Key

I am thinking about switching one of the ploy cards for Distraction, but still unsure which might be good to take out for or if it's really worth it since I already got Terrifying Screams in the deck.
Also not really sure about the Flawless Strategy objective. I am thinking about goint with "Battle without Ends" or "Peerless General" instead.

Your feedback is welcome

[Killax]

Looks great to me!

[Sleboda]

Anyone got a plan to beat Orrucks? Cuz my gf and I switched recently and now I crush my own undead with her orruks easily ... every single game. I didn't change her deck.  She is customizing the undead deck to beat orruks.  No difference.

Point. Click. Win.

[cainthebag]

@Necromancer Commands Your decklist is very good and I am using it now to build my Objective-based Sepulchral Guard deck.

May I suggest Shifting Shards? It could

1. Move an objective closer to our fighters and help with limited mobility
2. Move an objective onto a starting square that allows SG to resurrect fighters onto the objective.
3. Counter an opponent's use of Shifting Shards?

Would that be more useful than Shardfall?

[Red_Zeke]

Shifting shards can also make it so you don’t have to burn an action to step onto an objective adjacent to a starting hex. Although admittedly, move actions aren’t nearly as tough to come by in a SG deck.

[Goblin-King]

5 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Anyone got a plan to beat Orrucks? Cuz my gf and I switched recently and now I crush my own undead with her orruks easily ... every single game. I didn't change her deck.  She is customizing the undead deck to beat orruks.  No difference.

Point. Click. Win.

Have you tried switching back again? Maybe your gf is just bad at playing? No offence, but it's a possibility 
I used to beat my ex in MTG no matter which deck we both used.

@cainthebag
I find Shardfall to be an incredibly useful and diverse tool. Definitely a strong candidate for "Include in every deck".

[Killax]

14 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Anyone got a plan to beat Orrucks? Cuz my gf and I switched recently and now I crush my own undead with her orruks easily ... every single game. I didn't change her deck.  She is customizing the undead deck to beat orruks.  No difference.

Point. Click. Win.

Round 1: Try to keep as many Orruks out of combat, with a good set up and double Move Actions, Distraction and Terrifying Screams you should be able to at least reduce their numbers to two relevant fighters for ensuing combat phases. The more you can push round 1 the better. Destroy Gurzag if your opponent plays very aggressive with him. There are many reasons to do it and he's actually not too difficult to thake out without Unkillable or Soultrap. 
Round 2: Try and destroy Gurzag or Bonekutta. In this phase it's very important to realize that these two fighters are actually the only two relevant fighters to deal with as soon as possible. Both Hakka and Basha only deal 1 damage Uninspired so let them be as uninspired as possible. 
Round 3: The clean up, at this point ideally both Gurzag and Bonekutta are gone, if the situation allows for it a third Orruk could be dead to. Keep in mind to score your Keys and ideally push the last Orruk away/out of your territory. The latter isn't very easy to do but nontheless very possible thanks to Shadeglass Darts and/or Lethal Lunge.

In general though as above it's also very important to keep in mind that if your Objective deck (Sepulchral Guard) is build around Objectives it's important to realize these have to be covered at least before the last Activation in a round but against Orruks most certainly does not have the occur the first Activation each round (this mistake is commonly made). 

Orruks are currently the best Warband for the combats during a game, if any player goes into this and tries to outdo Orruks in it by widly swining at everybody your digging your own grave. Because they have no real other great goal but combat keeping them as long out of combat as possible should be your prime goal. This is hard to do from round 2 and on but most certainly possible round 1. I do this everytime with Garrek's reavers and have a 60/40 result against them. As before their are two main focus fighters here and that's Bonekutta (because of his swings) and Gurzag (simple damage output). Thake them both out on time and you should be set.