The Future - And Past - of the AoS Aesthetic

[BunkhouseBuster]

I have to admit, when AoS was first released, I was grouchy at GW producing yet another heavily armored super-soldier using pseudo-Latin naming as the poster boys for another game.  But in hindsight, that grumpiness was caused by how they handled the changeover from WHFB to AoS more than anything (it was just so sudden and without any real warning).  As I began to read more on the Stormcast and how they work I realize that they are similar to Space Marines, but different enough to be worthy of existing.  The first thing was learning that they lose their humanity upon each respawn, which is a cool idea and could lead to some great characterization; once I learned about that, I was hopeful and excited for what was to come.

To put another way, it's like hearing a cover of a hit song.  If the band is going to play the song the exact same way as the original, then what is the point?  Just play the original version instead!  But doing something different with it, then it gets a whole new spin and new way of being enjoyed.  Think about Aerosmith covering Come Together by the Beatles - not a lot of change in how the song really sounds.  But Johnny Cash doing a cover of Hurt by Nine Inch Nails and Rusty Cage by Soundgarden, or Steve 'n' Seagulls doing a bluegrass cover of Thunderstruck by ACDC, those are new spins on older pieces!

In the case Stormcast Eternals versus Space Marines, the song is "super soldier heroes in heavy armor", with a different band performing Space Marines and Stormcast.  One is a genetically enhanced human that is indoctrinated from a young age to be a fearless super-soldier that doesn't relent in battle, barely having enough time to reflect upon their own humanity and the Imperium's place in the galaxy.  Stormcast are former mortals who despise Chaos and are given a second chance at life through divine will, super-charged with magics and holy power to have another chance at fighting their hated foe, plus they have a motivation to not fall in battle, lest they lose their humanity (and possibly their memory of why they are even fighting?).  Similar, yes, but ultimately different enough to be it's own faction.

I mean, seriously, what's not awesome about a grandma being turned into a super-soldier of the forces of good, hell-bent on destroying Chaos and saving the realms, and her grandchildren, from evil?  That is so awesome as to make the entire setting worthwhile right there.  Did anybody ever watch The Beverly Hillbillies, and see the character of Granny in that?  That's my head-canon now

 

[chord]

2 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

Which is interesting and shame that is not yet expanded in this regard. Archaon's sword eats the souls of the fallen, Vandus's soul went to Azyr regardless, but Archaon still touched his soul and... and. It would be great if GW uses this idea to a greater degree.

I'm sure they will, but AOS has had no campaign releases since.....

And it could just be setting the stage for something real world years down the road.  Vandus is on his way to bigger and better things. (Lord Commander probably)

[Menkeroth]

1 hour ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

I have to admit, when AoS was first released, I was grouchy at GW producing yet another heavily armored super-soldier using pseudo-Latin naming as the poster boys for another game.  But in hindsight, that grumpiness was caused by how they handled the changeover from WHFB to AoS more than anything (it was just so sudden and without any real warning).  As I began to read more on the Stormcast and how they work I realize that they are similar to Space Marines, but different enough to be worthy of existing.  The first thing was learning that they lose their humanity upon each respawn, which is a cool idea and could lead to some great characterization; once I learned about that, I was hopeful and excited for what was to come.

 

seconding on that. GW could have done much worse but in the end really did well with old ideas. Not that bad after all

51 minutes ago, chord said:

I'm sure they will, but AOS has had no campaign releases since.....

 

Sadly, but I guess they will start another campaign later or maybe will go on with Firestorm-like narrative. Who knows.

52 minutes ago, chord said:

And it could just be setting the stage for something real world years down the road.  Vandus is on his way to bigger and better things. (Lord Commander probably)

Definitely, he has visions for a reason, I think, and was here from the start. Maybe he will become a kind of Archaon's mortal enemy, although they can not be compared by any means.

[shinros]

5 hours ago, CoreCommander said:

Which makes it even harder for us when one of the  important ones dies . RIP Thostos, you'll be missed - legend forever...

I am quite sure he is fine in Dorghar.

3 hours ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

I have to admit, when AoS was first released, I was grouchy at GW producing yet another heavily armored super-soldier using pseudo-Latin naming as the poster boys for another game.  But in hindsight, that grumpiness was caused by how they handled the changeover from WHFB to AoS more than anything (it was just so sudden and without any real warning).  As I began to read more on the Stormcast and how they work I realize that they are similar to Space Marines, but different enough to be worthy of existing.  The first thing was learning that they lose their humanity upon each respawn, which is a cool idea and could lead to some great characterization; once I learned about that, I was hopeful and excited for what was to come.

To put another way, it's like hearing a cover of a hit song.  If the band is going to play the song the exact same way as the original, then what is the point?  Just play the original version instead!  But doing something different with it, then it gets a whole new spin and new way of being enjoyed.  Think about Aerosmith covering Come Together by the Beatles - not a lot of change in how the song really sounds.  But Johnny Cash doing a cover of Hurt by Nine Inch Nails and Rusty Cage by Soundgarden, or Steve 'n' Seagulls doing a bluegrass cover of Thunderstruck by ACDC, those are new spins on older pieces!

In the case Stormcast Eternals versus Space Marines, the song is "super soldier heroes in heavy armor", with a different band performing Space Marines and Stormcast.  One is a genetically enhanced human that is indoctrinated from a young age to be a fearless super-soldier that doesn't relent in battle, barely having enough time to reflect upon their own humanity and the Imperium's place in the galaxy.  Stormcast are former mortals who despise Chaos and are given a second chance at life through divine will, super-charged with magics and holy power to have another chance at fighting their hated foe, plus they have a motivation to not fall in battle, lest they lose their humanity (and possibly their memory of why they are even fighting?).  Similar, yes, but ultimately different enough to be it's own faction.

I mean, seriously, what's not awesome about a grandma being turned into a super-soldier of the forces of good, hell-bent on destroying Chaos and saving the realms, and her grandchildren, from evil?  That is so awesome as to make the entire setting worthwhile right there.  Did anybody ever watch The Beverly Hillbillies, and see the character of Granny in that?  That's my head-canon now

 

Funny enough there is a female stormcast in spear of shadows that IS a grandmother. Her grandchild is kinda dead though. 

[VBS]

8 hours ago, Killax said:

Space Marines are not beings made of energy reforged by an actual god, Sigmar. In addition Stormcast are not made of younger boys. So if someone states that Stormcast and Space Marine are the same they are ill informed. What occurs here is that you've made multiple posts that just show you don't know what Stormcasts are about and still havn't found a reason to do so before complaining about them.

Stormcasts do not have the flaws of the Space Marines because in essence they arn't the same. A Space Marine is a human upgraded and designed to the maximum limits of mankind, still mortal. Stormcasts are a product of Sigmar, handpicked from grown up heroes, picked from battles all throughout the many realms, realms not set in a sci-fi setting but high/epic fantasy setting. Once created Stormcasts act, look and think uniform, they are a direct extention of a god, Sigmar, they are immortal because they are created by an immortal being.

Your efforts in trying to dismiss the actual narrative for Stormcasts only proof one point; you do not understand the difference between a warrior in a high/epic fantasy setting versus that of heroes in a sci-fi fantasy setting. 

Not that anyone that asked for my opinion, but the way I see it is that you are both referering to different points.

Obvioisly SCE are not going to be a copy of SM. It would be lazy, unoriginal and all that. So physiologically and background wise no one can deny the differences (like duh!). However, I do think that the "concept" as in the defining factor of their "creation" is the same for both SM and SCE. And I think that is what stratigo implied. So if one is immortal amd the other just a duper human is marely anecdotal, the point being that they both represent paragons of defense against chaos, evil, destruction, etc... with an identical "vibe". Its also quite undeniable that the basis of SCE were SM (posterboy army treatment as a product reference for a game). I dont mean this negatively for the SCE or anything, it's just that it seems very obvious besides all the "design differences" that you refer to (and rightly so).

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

On 23/10/2017 at 4:30 PM, Sheriff said:

Exactly, whereas the old world has tons of cool goblin stuff. I'm new to the whole warhammer thing, so can pick from either for the setting and play AOS for its cool battles. (played fantasy battles as a kid but hardly remember anything). 

Spear of shadows does have spiderfang grots, though.

[Killax]

9 hours ago, VBS said:

So if one is immortal amd the other just a duper human is marely anecdotal, the point being that they both represent paragons of defense against chaos, evil, destruction, etc... with an identical "vibe".

Its also quite undeniable that the basis of SCE were SM (posterboy army treatment as a product reference for a game). I dont mean this negatively for the SCE or anything, it's just that it seems very obvious besides all the "design differences" that you refer to (and rightly so).

The Space Marine arnt created to be that, where Stormcast are. Again Space Marines where created for Conquest, largely to battle xenos. Because they wernt created to battle Chaos they can be influenced by it. Grey Knights where created to battle Chaos, so if one wants to compair the two, be specific. There are no Chaos Grey Knights like there are no Chaos Stormcast. Assumption and misinformation is what lead the discussion here.

If youd pull the actual models of SCE close to the Space Marine line you'd see plentora of differences. I can do a side by side if you want to. Just because some Space Marines have faced helmets doesnt mean all do.

Look into Stormcast narrative and actual models, it will inform any player.

[BrownDog]

Not sure if anyone has posted this already but I enjoy Josh Reynolds' description of the difference between the Stormcast and the Space Marines. (Taken from his ASKfm)

"Well, for starters, Space Marines are chosen as children, tortured by SCIENCE!, and then drafted into an eternity of being monastic murder machines whose sole purpose is to hold up the crumbling foundations of an omnicidal dystopia in the name of a rotting carcass that eats psykers like chiclets. They're emotionally stunted orphans who were brainwashed and weaponized before being unleashed on a galaxy where EVERYTHING is trying to kill them. They never even had a chance to be people before someone turned them into a gun instead.

---

Stormcast, on the other hand, are dead heroes, chosen for their valour and faith, resurrected and sent to free the Mortal Realms from the abominations currently running the show, on behalf of a benevolent god-king. They're traumatized heroes who had lives, personalities and histories prior to being crammed into primary colored hulkbuster armor and filled full of lightning so that they could go save their descendants from the eldritch horrors of a nightmare dimension. They endure death after death, losing a bit more of their soul each time, in order to prevent anyone else from suffering the fate which befell them.

---

One group are so far removed from humanity as to be utterly alien. The other group are so human it causes them pain. One group feels little in the way of emotion, the other group feels emotion as strongly as they did before death. One group hates and fears the alien. The other group allies regularly with space-lizards, skeletors and green monster-men. One group is the personification of the grim future in which they live. The other is a thing born of hope.

The similarities are cosmetic: big guys in easily paintable armor sell better than little dudes with fiddly bits. But the context for those cosmetic similarities is quite different. Think of it this way...Space Marines are Batman and Stormcast are Captain America. Both are super-heroes, both wear costumes, both punch bad guys, both save people. But they ain't the same, are they?"

[Killax]

@BrownDog

 

[Captain Marius]

If anyone has seen Thor Ragnarok, the way he fights with the lightning has helped me to better visualise how the stormcasts would look at war... which is freakin awesome!! I think GW have cottoned on to a really good concept here - i think id now like to see a stormcast movie more than a marine one!

[Killax]

13 minutes ago, Captain Marius said:

If anyone has seen Thor Ragnarok, the way he fights with the lightning has helped me to better visualise how the stormcasts would look at war... which is freakin awesome!! I think GW have cottoned on to a really good concept here - i think id now like to see a stormcast movie more than a marine one!

Yeah it really helps to understand that several genres have several fans. Sci-fi, historical fantasy, high/epic fantasy all have pro's and con's.
If something is 'unbelievable' it doesn't always have to be a bad thing  

We see several games and creations inspiring several other games and creations. While some of them look the same it's the narrative context that sets things apart. Stormcast by Marvel hero comparison are more Thor like figures and the reason why this is the case is because Thor comes from mythology and high/epic fantasy as a genre always had mythology influences.

It's not a coincedence that gods fighting gods is so common in Age of Sigmar and so uncommon in the (dark) sci-fi fantasy that is Warhammer 40.000. In that same vein god battles where also uncommon in the (dark) historical fantasy setting of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.  

Understanding the difference in genres means understanding why immortal beings 'work' for certain stories of certain genres.

[Menkeroth]

Main heroes of the story have to be charismatic, visually impressive and, in case of GW, easily glued and painted. WHFB was lacking this so much it's one of the reasons it drastically failed. WH40k, on the other hand, did not, because they have SM which I love, by the way, even now, when I am fully in the AoS, but my first and most beloved always were my CSM and Dark Angels. And this is logical - beautiful models (even old ones), easily painted and converted. Xenos can be pretty too, but you subconsciously always will be attracted and most easily associated with big humans, clad in full plate armor rather, than everything else. Eldar / elves are too elegant and strange (most people will not ever know they are a mix of Middle Ages Chinese and Byzantians, for a start, with a bit of ancient Greeks and Celts),  orks are too simple and brutal, Tau are just Japanese from Evangelion and so on. This goes for SCE all the same, as WHFB had this not and it was a problem. So instead of a dull historicals which we have plenty, we have now the same big men in full plate armor.

[VBS]

9 hours ago, Killax said:

The Space Marine arnt created to be that, where Stormcast are. Again Space Marines where created for Conquest, largely to battle xenos. Because they wernt created to battle Chaos they can be influenced by it. Grey Knights where created to battle Chaos, so if one wants to compair the two, be specific. There are no Chaos Grey Knights like there are no Chaos Stormcast. Assumption and misinformation is what lead the discussion here.

If youd pull the actual models of SCE close to the Space Marine line you'd see plentora of differences. I can do a side by side if you want to. Just because some Space Marines have faced helmets doesnt mean all do.

Look into Stormcast narrative and actual models, it will inform any player.

Actually, I am not discussing this as sentences 2 to 4 of my post indicate. So I dont think you really understood what I meant (or I simply did not explain well enough). 

[Killax]

3 hours ago, VBS said:

Actually, I am not discussing this as sentences 2 to 4 of my post indicate. So I dont think you really understood what I meant (or I simply did not explain well enough). 

You suggest that Space Marine are created to fight evil, like the Stormcast. I present you the fact that this is not true for the both of them. Space Marines where created for human conquest, they can turn evil. Stormcast on the other hand are created to form, defend and keep Order, conquering realms is not their main objective. Again, Space Marines arnt created for defence. 

The reason as to why the two are poster boys is because what they have in common is that they are the ultimate human heroes, to the point where you almost cant call them human anymore. Their creation, purpose and goals actually differ as much as the sci-fi and high fantasy genres do. 

[VBS]

53 minutes ago, Killax said:

You suggest that Space Marine are created to fight evil, like the Stormcast. I present you the fact that this is not true for the both of them. Space Marines where created for human conquest, they can turn evil. Stormcast on the other hand are created to form, defend and keep Order, conquering realms is not their main objective. Again, Space Marines arnt created for defence. 

The reason as to why the two are poster boys is because what they have in common is that they are the ultimate human heroes, to the point where you almost cant call them human anymore. Their creation, purpose and goals actually differ as much as the sci-fi and high fantasy genres do. 

Nope. You see, I suggested something different. I do not focus on the anatomy, background, story purpose of conquer or fight the baddies or whatever irrelevant detail to draw a comparison as I understand that it is so obvious that there is no need to pinpoint out facts. What I suggested was that the idea behind both of them is used in a same way by GW. The "imagery" they project in their respective universes is very close. The purpose was then to create a "super human" (or whatever) type of character that could easily be identified as the "ultimate" concept behind a sci-fi or fantasy setting, a rallying point that sets it apart from other similar universes/games and could easily be the sacred milking-cow of the company. THAT is my point. And since whfb did not have this concept, the conception of SCE follows the same trend that shaped the current SM (because back in the day, SM were just a bunch of bloodlusted barbarians.... really not what they are today as the ultimate weapon of the Mankind against the baddies). And I see no issue in accepting that GW relied heavily on the SM concept to create SCE, but NOT because of their anatomy, creation, background, being the good guys that save the day or whatver you want to list....but because they fullfil the same target as reference in their own respective settings. So comparing both on this basis is just natural.

Hope it is clearer now and there will be no need to start listing fluff for the hundreth time as if it were relevant or something.

[GammaMage]

Fluff is extremely relevant to the earlier contention that Stormcast have no personality and are emotionless automatons. From a purely aesthetical point of view, yes, Stormcast and Space Marines are very similar.

However, fluff should not be dismissed completely out of hand. I like the design of the Stormcast more now that I have read the novels. They haven't changed at all in design, but they are now a symbol of hope in my view. But I know not everyone cares about fluff to the degree that it changes their feelings about design.

[Killax]

Not only is the narrative always important, all I see with comment's like @VBS is that they prefer their own made up stories as that of the real written narrative. As the Space Marines arn't 'the ultimate weapon against baddies', because if they where, they wouldn't also be the baddies themselves now would they? Chaos Space Marines have excisted for a long time and are such baddies that in 40K they are their own "Grand Allegiance".

To make things even more clear and remove ourselfs from falsehoods and clearly misinformed statements, Warhammer Fantasy Battles did have a super-human hero who saved Warhammer Fantasy Battles, the man in question is the same as the title bearer for Age of Sigmar and indeed is Sigmar himself. Straight from the pages of the Warhammer Fantasy Rulesbook:


If we are to look back at the past it isn't Age of Sigmar which is influenced by Warhammer 40.000 it's Warhammer 40.000 influenced by Warhammer Fantasy Battles. That same influence of Warhammer Fantasy Battles is what made (Age of) Sigmar in the first place.
All that changed in the bigger context here is that Sigmar now has his own army and force and never was a playable model in Warhammer Fantasy Battles, even though it could have been a very interesting option to bring Sigmar back to battle Archaon. They even tried this with Valten. Warhammer Fantasy went from historical fantasy to what is now called Age of Sigmar with high/epic fantasy. The vast ammount of armies remained, the vast ammount of playable characters remained and the more we look into Generals Handbooks the more we see rules added that are directly from Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

The prime reason as to why I believe Sigmar was not brought back to Warhammer Fantasy Battles is two fold:
1. WFB did not sell well enough to continue to beat on a dead historical fantasy horse.
2. Sigmar's orginal design was very similar to that of Chaos Marauders and since 5th edition the creators of Warhammer Fantasy Battles largely did away with good Barbarian's and gave away that look to Chaos Warriors (Marauders). 

What is important to realize again is the genre context in which the game was made. Narrative matters here because it decides the futre and past of aos aesthetic. Players are free to dislike the Stormcast aestehtically but saying they are Space Marines or Space Marines are Stormcast is just utter nonsence.
Pure aesthetical speaking Stormcast look like Sanguinary Guard, which is a specialist unit within a sub-faction of Space Marines called Blood Angels. Other than that very few players are so confused they pick up a Stormcast box instead of their wished for Space Marines because they "look so alike". Not even Google confuses the two...

However this topic unfolds, the outcome to me has always been the same, those who hate on Stormcast know nothing about them and hate on them because they identify it with the demise of Warhammer Fantasy Battles. The thought that a model like is responsible for that isn't even further backed up by any thought process or proof, it completely relies on assumptions.

[VBS]

"Prefer their own made up stories"? Narrative based post again? For the third time, Im not adressing this point and certainly dont disagree with most things posted in that aspect. But you seem to lack reading comprehension skills, so I wont go further on. Have a nice weekend.

 

[GammaMage]

To be fair, fullplate-wearing golden hammer-wielding warriors are common in fantasy. We call them paladins. Can we really say Stormcast are more based on Space Marines than on paladins? The Prosecutors even look like angels.

[stratigo]

It is bizzarre that killed thinks that one group of super human created to conquer the galaxy verse another group of super humans created to conquer the mortal realms are super different. See look, they were both created to conquer stuff! I can be reductive too

 

gw has, by and large, slotted stormcast into the space marine hole. Sorry, that is what it is. They should let Reynolds at them more often, he gets it. But gw has organized the storm ast into mostly segregated military chambers who are viewed on as semi mythological by mortals. They hit all the same beats in theme and in their stories. The difference between brainwashed super soldiers and reincarnated heroes is never played up. The stormcast act like warrior monks, which is what space marines are. They are, for the moment, warrior monk super soldiers. You’re never going to get away from the super soldier aspect, but you could easily make it so the stormcast don’t segregate into their own military chambers and live aloof from the people around them, coming forth only save mortals

So no, stormcast aren’t literally space marines, since you know, they aren’t actually space marines  they are merely thematically and aesthetically space marines. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing even, but space marines are often used in very very boring ways, they just have the benefit of decades of development. In ten years stormcast likely will be fine, but for now for me they are suffering under the pallor of being bolter ****** race, and pretty much every story about them is based around big beefy fighting written with, uh, just competence

 

[Tailessine]

The thing that bugs me most about stormcast is that they are meant to embody the magic realm of Heavens/Azyr; which correlates to weather, celestial phenomena etc- you can see this with items such as starsoul maces, their planetary insignia, use of lightning etc, and yet GW are increasingly pushing them as 'Heavenly' meaning religious or angelic. Even the new units are 'angelos' or 'redeemer.' i think this is too similar to the background of space marines, and is unecessary when they have so much else to work with. 

[Tailessine]

Fair enough- its hardly an important issue, its just that it would have been interesting to have flagship armies from each major line that were not so similar

[GammaMage]

I'm wondering why they did a box set for Daughters of Khaine, and then left them out of the Anvilheim allegiance, which has every other former Dark Elf splinter faction. Coming back to aesthetics, the Daughters look pretty distinctive, and are very dynamic compared to the mostly static regiments of the others. Do they have future plans for Daughters because their aesthetic lends itself better to the loose formations of AoS?

[Menkeroth]

It's very likely in the future, so I'd expect the development of their fluff at least. I hope in general GW will develop the Order's main strength - different factions that are united by the hatred of Chaos as the common enemy.

[TheNotebookGM]

Hopefully DoK being left out of the GHB2017 means we are close to a DoK release/expansion/battltome. 

I think what factions/species are developed in the next year will be a memorandum on where GW sees AoS as going overall. Seeing a faction like Brayherds getting allegiance abilities in GHB2017 (which GW has tacitly indicated is a death knell for any hope of expansion in the foreseeable future) was interesting because I feel like that faction is one that occupies a pretty GW-unique IP territory that I would have thought they'd want to develop further as they move farther away from the classical fantasy archetypes and more towards high/epic fantasy motifs.