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BobbyB

The Future - And Past - of the AoS Aesthetic

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17 minutes ago, stratigo said:

It is flatly distressing that people think world building is somehow inimical to a high fantasy setting...

 

bemoaning that they didn't start with a faction as strong as the kharadrons as opposed to the Stormcast.

 

This. I'd happily have karadrons on the cover of every new release for a year. Anything but more stormcast. Once you realise they look like matt damon puppets you can't un-see it. 

Karadrons are a great example of this new whacky world having a more modern/futurey feel without it sucking. They're awesome. 

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stormcast look like warrior monks? To me they look like an army of Paladins the opposite to chaos warriors and joe the farmer whenever he exists in warhammer novels is there to be disposed of to make the army look great it's like a staple of warhammer novels. You just said we need normal humans to understand and show context to a situation of how it is for a normal human to live in the realms I provided that. They do it numerous times when the stormcast find enclaves and villages of people in the novels where they go into detail of how they survive and in turn show how human stormcast are compared to space marines. Now they are going into detail on the cities which are nothing like old world cities I should add.

Your posts to me now just look like you don't like stormcast since all I see is a surface understanding. I mean that's okay but don't present it in a way that's how majority of people think. Considering how popular the audio drama series is and Warbeast(who won the Gemmel)

Edited by shinros

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9 minutes ago, Lousy Beatnik said:

Weird to see people feeling they need to defend liking age of Sigmar on an age of Sigmar forum.

As for the  food, farming, building homes and all that obsession, I just opened up the Pestilens novel.

Farmers growing fungus on the back of the living city worm, houses and libraries built into the hairs on its back, skaven going to live inside the flesh (there's even a rotting orruk fort inside the stomach) and Stormcast reminiscing about simpler times hunting for food. :)

Yup. That city is seen again in spear of shadows in the present time of the setting also that book is rather "old". It's all there people just have not been bothered to read it.

Edited by shinros

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24 minutes ago, Killax said:

The only thing I can make out of the first paragraph is that you dislike Stormcast but don't mind Kharadron Overlords and Ironjawz. So far the prime reason for me to not like one over the other is because objectively speaking the Stormcast Eternal Battletome covers the actual civilisations and societies that are in cities protected by the Stormcast. You seem very visually focused on the disliking of gleaming gold armor. Personally I understand that but this doesn't mean their narrative is not fleshed out as well. If anything Stormcast have the most narrative, the most cities, the most social norms and the most former joes.

It's flatly distressing that you make some claims without citing sources and continue to assume the Stormcast are void of narrative designs "you are looking for". Do you actually read Battletomes and Age of Sigmar books or did you skip on it? So far the above claim more or less shows you havn't looked into Stormcast at all. If you would look past the golden armour you'll find fleshed out factions within Stormcast. 

If you are looking for a game that builds narrative and finds challenges your really doing a disservice to yourself by playing a miniatures wargame, again an RPG sets itself much better for that. Age of Sigmar revolves around armies fighting (constantly) because this is what the game emulates. It's as close as creating a story for store and tournament events as it gets.

>dislike Stormcast but don't mind Kharadron Overlords and Ironjawz

Yep, this is a common view. Not just him. 

>Stormcast have the most narrative, the most cities, the most social norms and the most former joes.

This is the problem. Stormcast are everywhere, in every book released, running all the cities. Its like every dish I eat having to have some marmite in it. It tastes disgusting. 

8 minutes ago, Lousy Beatnik said:

Weird to see people feeling they need to defend liking age of Sigmar on an age of Sigmar forum.

As for the  food, farming, building homes and all that obsession, I just opened up the Pestilens novel.

Farmers growing fungus on the back of the living city worm, houses and libraries built into the hairs on its back, skaven going to live inside the flesh (there's even a rotting orruk fort inside the stomach) and Stormcast reminiscing about simpler times hunting for food. :)

Hmm so stormcast were in the pestilens book? shocker. 

Plenty of people like this game but don't like stormcast. 

 

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9 minutes ago, stratigo said:

where did I get too bored with the Stormcast battletome that I stopped and went to the rules? Vanguard-Hunters. The Vanguard-Hunters part is where I tapped out. I consumed the vast majority of the battletome's setting.

You show me where in that entire battletome it builds a setting. What I got is that Stormcast are immortal. Their mounts are immortal. They were once great heroes. They lose their personality when they die. They're super mega ultra awesome at messing up the bad guys. There's a super sized city in Azyrheim.

Again, the most interesting thing about a stormcast is who they were before they died. They were once great heroes. Now they are a largely faceless mass. Their entire visual ascetic is at odds with their concept as, essentially, einherjar. They all adopt this largely uniform and unvaried ascetic. They have no personal heraldry, they incorporate no flair. You'd think great kings, knights, and heroes of all stripes would want to show off. They'd throw down their war cred. They'd wear something that declared "I am Horgath, kicker of ass, I slew three gargants in a single blow before I was felled, and for my heroic deeds I was raised to fight eternally". And... they don't. And if they did more of that we'd actually get to see the cultures and societies these heroes would come from. I want my stormcast to be bombastic and boastful. They're not warrior monks. The sigmarine crack isn't because they are large dudes in shiny armor. It's because they act like warrior monks sworn to asceticism in most of their mentions and, most importantly, they LOOK like ascetic warrior monks. 

The game is more as Stormcast, so if you don't like them feel free to not focus on them. It seems that youve made your conclusion about them without reading much more into it. This is your choice. This isn't where the book stops thicking the plot.

When you look into this Battletome and the recent Firestorm expansion you see that Stormcast are to some extend immortal, in the sence that their death turns into energy that can be used again. The same is true for Seraphon and Chaos Daemons, this concept is even logical and commonly used in high fantasy designs. They are indeed ultra awesome in messing up the bad guys, so are the bad guys in messing up the good guys.
What you like is the human aspect and the hero that can die. What you like is also there in Age of Sigmar and even in Stormcast. The moment a Stormcast gets destroyed he isn't instantly brought back to the place where he used to be. What is objectively and visually incorrect is that they do have personal heraldy and flair. They are to an extend akin to the Space Marine Warrior monks but they have many more doubts as Space Marines. In many way Stormcast are much more human as Space Marines are. 

4 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

This. I'd happily have karadrons on the cover of every new release for a year. Anything but more stormcast. Once you realise they look like matt damon puppets you can't un-see it. 

Karadrons are a great example of this new whacky world having a more modern/futurey feel without it sucking. They're awesome. 

It's an option, though hating on Stormcast for the sake of it is also becomming an old joke.

As before they recieve the same flak Warriors of Chaos recieved in the end of WFB. Something will be a posterboy and some people will hate on it, not willing to actually give a single valid reason other than their visual appearance.

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4 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

This is the problem. Stormcast are everywhere, in every book released, running all the cities. Its like every dish I eat having to have some marmite in it. It tastes disgusting. 

It's fantastic how you two parties don't read each others posts.

First problem presented: "Stormcast are not fleshed out well". Yet they are.
Second problem presented: "The issue is that Stormcast are fleshed out everywhere". 

As before, something has to be a main story. Space Marines are the Matt Damon of 40K. Chaos Warriors where the Matt Damon of WFB.
Feel free to write complaints to GW about it. 

 

Edited by Killax
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As I said in that big post earlier, I think the whole faceless nature of the Stormcast is what makes them interesting. It positions Sigmar as very clearly as a force for 'Order' not what might be considered morally 'Good'. His version of Order is skewed towards rigid regimentation, and use of his troops as nothing more than a resource.

Losing their personality is not a desirable outcome, its indoctrination into a dubious war machine. Named Stormcast Heroes are those who have somehow managed to retain their personality through endless reforging - or by not dying - but they're no less allowed to wear personal heraldry than any other, because they've lost that right.

As I also said in my big mega post earlier, it also leaves them totally open for you to make your own lore, because your Stormhost can come in any colour and be from any part of the mortal realms. There are plenty of cases of Stormhosts working to retain their heritage - from beast slayers, to those persecuted by Chaos who swear vengeance. It's very "Ra Ra Kill The Baddies", but it doesn't have to be. Just like the with Space Marines, not all chapters are The Ultramarines. There are potentially endless Stormhosts for you to create your own background from - those who lived alongside the Sylvaneth and so have an affinity for Nature, those who have made deals with the Kharadron because they're from the guard of a mercantile city. The possibilities are as broad as the realms.

 

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1 hour ago, Killax said:

It's fantastic how you two parties don't read each others posts.

First problem presented: "Stormcast are not fleshed out well". Yet they are.
Second problem presented: "The issue is that Stormcast are fleshed out everywhere". 

As before, something has to be a main story. Space Marines are the Matt Damon of 40K. Chaos Warriors where the Matt Damon of WFB.
Feel free to write complaints to GW about it. 

 

Thank you. As a vampire count fan it was pretty much sorry undead you can't be the bad guy or useful in any story? Why cause warriors of chaos! They are the main bad guy! That's how the setting is written.(I did not hate warriors of chaos they have an interesting culture and how they worshipped the gods is neat) At least now they are moving away from that. Ironjawz smashed aside chaos and order in Ghur in a funny and orky fashion securing their all gate.. Stormcast lost several times to chaos and now next year undead are going to pop their head up. 

Edited by shinros
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Just now, Killax said:

It's fantastic how you two parties don't read each others post.

First problem presented: "Stormcast are not fleshed out well". Yet they are.

Second problem presented: "The issue is that Stormcast are fleshed out everywhere". 

As before, something has to be a main story. Space Marines are the Matt Damon of 40K. Feel free to write complaints to GW about it. 

 

Nope, my gripe is that the whole world's lore is stormcast. If i want to learn about some forest or a town or a realm or whatever, it comes with a mountainous side dish of stormcast stuff I don't give a squig about. "ahhh you want to read about the forest of doom? yes then you need to buy the stormcast novel #11 and read how it is no longer doomed thanks to this wonderful new faction of mat damon puppets." Its like how religous people decide their god is involved with everything on earth. Any good deeds done, and natural phenomenon was only done thanks to their lame god, oh and i must convert to their god and buy books about him. 

I just can't take stormcast seriously BECAUSE they look retarded. It damages the whole brand of the game to have them thrust into our throats in every book and every product. Just swap them for a more likable faction in the books etc and problem solved. 

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11 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Nope, my gripe is that the whole world's lore is stormcast. If i want to learn about some forest or a town or a realm or whatever, it comes with a mountainous side dish of stormcast stuff I don't give a squig about. "ahhh you want to read about the forest of doom? yes then you need to buy the stormcast novel #11 and read how it is no longer doomed thanks to this wonderful new faction of mat damon puppets." Its like how religous people decide their god is involved with everything on earth. Any good deeds done, and natural phenomenon was only done thanks to their lame god, oh and i must convert to their god and buy books about him. 

I just can't take stormcast seriously BECAUSE they look retarded. It damages the whole brand of the game to have them thrust into our throats in every book and every product. Just swap them for a more likable faction in the books etc and problem solved. 

So you just don't like them. That's okay because there are novels where stormcasts are not the main characters. GW had stories commissioned for people who may not be that into them but in the end there are many who are. If everyone hated stormcast the hunt of nagash would of not sold that well(Best AOS story IMO). If people hated them warbeast would not have won the gemmel and been so highly praised. 

 Still we are going to see a lot of them since they are the poster boys and girls it's just how it is.  Still I recommend city of secrets and spear of shadows. Also C.L new book coming out soon. 

BLPROCESSED-11-10-OverlordsIronDragon-mi

BLPROCESSED-City-of-Secrets-Cover.jpg

BLPROCESSED-Spear-of-ShadowsCover.jpg

Edited by shinros
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5 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Nope, my gripe is that the whole world's lore is stormcast. If i want to learn about some forest or a town or a realm or whatever, it comes with a mountainous side dish of stormcast stuff I don't give a squig about. "ahhh you want to read about the forest of doom? yes then you need to buy the stormcast novel #11 and read how it is no longer doomed thanks to this wonderful new faction of mat damon puppets." Its like how religous people decide their god is involved with everything on earth. Any good deeds done, and natural phenomenon was only done thanks to their lame god, oh and i must convert to their god and buy books about him. 

I just can't take stormcast seriously BECAUSE they look retarded. It damages the whole brand of the game to have them thrust into our throats in every book and every product. Just swap them for a more likable faction in the books etc and problem solved. 

With all respect to you but that's truely the strangest gripe. The game is called Age of Sigmar, Sigmar's Age, so logically the whole game will revolve more around Sigmar and his forces. In this case his forces happen to be Stormcast. Despite Warhammer Fantasy being called Warhammer Fantasy it truely would have been better to call it Chaos End Times from the 6th to 8th edition. It's what it revolved around anyway.

The reason as to why GW has chosen to go for this design is to lead from the End Times to Age of Sigmar. In the End Times every Chaos army destroyed other forces. Now in Age of Sigmar Stormcasts are what has given Order the power to smash back. 

While I understand that subjectively speaking the heads of Stormcast don't look very dramatic or emotional there really is no stopping you from putting a regular head on there either. Some find the Khorne bunny helmet look retarted. Some find the balloon Kharadron look retarded. The conclusion that this damages the brand is completely incorrect though. Facts are sales and they are doing very well.

Edited by Killax
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5 minutes ago, Killax said:

With all respect to you but that's truely the strangest gripe. The game is called Age of Sigmar, Sigmar's Age, so logically the whole game will revolve more around Sigmar and his forces. In this case his forces happen to be Stormcast. Despite Warhammer Fantasy being called Warhammer Fantasy it truely would have been better to call it Chaos End Times from the 6th to 8th edition. It's what it revolved around anyway.

The reason as to why GW has chosen to go for this design is to lead from the End Times to Age of Sigmar. In the End Times every Chaos army destroyed other forces. Now in Age of Sigmar Stormcasts are what has given Order the power to smash back. 

While I understand that subjectively speaking the heads of Stormcast don't look very dramatic or emotional there really is no stopping you from putting a regular head on there either. Some find the Khorne bunny helmet look retarted. Some find the balloon Kharadron look retarded. The conclusion that this damages the brand is completely incorrect though. Facts are sales and they are doing very well.

Agreed, the whole of 6th up to 8th was pretty much chaos is going to smack everyone's faces in. Hence why it bothered me that GW did things to keep races from interacting with each other. This one page shows me what GW wants to do with AOS. It's clear they want the setting to be more like 40k where it's more open this page shows me you can create tons more stories. 

AoSFreerCities_Details2hcs.jpg

The inhabitants section to me is the most interesting. Seeing seraphon and Sylvaneth. That is amazing. 

Edited by shinros
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You know, I've tried typing up some decent posts about what I like about the setting, how I got over the change... But really, reading pages of the same thing makes me realise that I just enjoy it. It doesn't matter why, it's just a dumb guilty pleasure. I watch some awful movies, old shows and rubbish music without thinking too much about it.

So yeah, AoS is an intentionally silly fantasy setting made up for a lighthearted wargame. That isn't a bad thing, and there are wargames that are the exact opposite (that I just might like as well). The lack of some apparently crucial elements, or a focus on big bad and big good characters isn't an accident, it's intentional.

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1 hour ago, Lousy Beatnik said:

You know, I've tried typing up some decent posts about what I like about the setting, how I got over the change... But really, reading pages of the same thing makes me realise that I just enjoy it. It doesn't matter why, it's just a dumb guilty pleasure. I watch some awful movies, old shows and rubbish music without thinking too much about it.

So yeah, AoS is an intentionally silly fantasy setting made up for a lighthearted wargame. That isn't a bad thing, and there are wargames that are the exact opposite (that I just might like as well). The lack of some apparently crucial elements, or a focus on big bad and big good characters isn't an accident, it's intentional.

Exactly. This isn't an issue of a lack of detail, but more that the details don't appeal to everyone. Specifically, those who tend to lean towards the more historical and/or real world type of fantasy.

I mean, I read about people hunting flying sharks somewhere in one of these threads, lol.

My personal concern is that the aesthetic grounding currently comes from the legacy/dangler factions, such as the Free Peoples, Darkling Covens and Soulblight. If they were all removed tomorrow, we'd be left with some very distinct, technically excellent, but, let's face it, very cartoonish factions. That said, a more rustic paint job can help a lot in this regard (e.g.. avoiding the yellow on the Ironjawz, etc.).

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I still think that most people only dislike the Stormcast cause they haven't actually read any of the novels about the Hallowed Knights. It's easy to hate on facless suits of armour. But when you see all the stuff that Gardus, Grymn, Morbus and the rest of them are willing to go through to help the sylvaneth (who don't even like them for a major part of the story) then it's hard to keep disliking them. I didn't like Stormcast too until I read the books.

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Just now, GammaMage said:

I still think that most people only dislike the Stormcast cause they haven't actually read any of the novels about the Hallowed Knights. It's easy to hate on facless suits of armour. But when you see all the stuff that Gardus, Grymn, Morbus and the rest of them are willing to go through to help the sylvaneth (who don't even like them for a major part of the story) then it's hard to keep disliking them. I didn't like Stormcast too until I read the books.

Same here. I hated the stormcast at first but the audio drama changed my mind and I dived right in, even seen some people trying to remake Gardus since he is so well liked. 

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15 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

I mean, I read about people hunting flying sharks somewhere in one of these threads, lol.

 

Kharadrons, to be precise. Since they live in the skies they have lots of enemies there that are sky specific. Sky sharks, flying krakens (yay!), flying goblin pirates and the like. You will never get bored with them :)

17 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

My personal concern is that the aesthetic grounding currently comes from the legacy/dangler factions, such as the Free Peoples, Darkling Covens and Soulblight. If they were all removed tomorrow, we'd be left with some very distinct, technically excellent, but, let's face it, very cartoonish factions.

Not necessarily. I'd say quite cartoonish is Khorne, but he always was. To some extent the Fyreslayers, although they are better than Khorne in this regard. Sylvaneth or Beastclaw raiders are better still, and so on. But in any case, high fantasy always tends to exaggerate things, so it's quite normal.

18 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

e.g.. avoiding the yellow on the Ironjawz, etc.).

speaking of this. Do you know why? Yellow is an excellent choice for posterboys, because it's bright and eye catching but neutral as well, unlike blue or red, for instance. GW knows very well how to catch our eyes.

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Small diversion re: that Ironjawz but I am always seeing people say that GW's official paint jobs are bad, as if it's easy to come up with a  colour scheme and style that fulfils the twin pronged fronts of selling the product to people who are brand new to the hobby via  scheme that can be replicated fairly simply, and pleasing long term fans.

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Good thing about these games and settings is you can just make your own stuff up. The world is just a canvass and a bunch of guidelines and inspiration. 

I choose to play my goblins in a timewarp realm like the caverns of time in WoW, whereby I go through the gate and the other side is the old world, and its a one-way gate that only non-stormcast can go through (because magic n that). We live in the mountains near Kraka Drak in summer time, and go down to the forest in winter time. We keep ourselves to ourselves mostly, enjoying cultural activities such as doomdiver olympics, but do like to burn down human towns and pillage dwarf places when supplies run low. Kislev bears can't keep up with our spider riders and are easy prey, and the stunties here are no match for our squigs and arachnaroks. We keep mobile and are never predictable enough to ambush. 

Happy to move this existence to another realm if migration is feasible, or a better setting becomes apparent. I quite like the look of the mountains around anvilgard but apparently they're full of monsters so don't fancy that. Plus if a floating continent full of enemies floats by then we're screwed, so seems like a recipe for anxiety.

I've taken the advice in this thread and downloaded all the AOS books. Will skim them for goblin stuff. 

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I have read a lot of the AoS novels, don't remember coming across and grots/goblins. Lots of Ironjaws though.

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2 minutes ago, DynamicCalories said:

Small diversion re: that Ironjawz but I am always seeing people say that GW's official paint jobs are bad, as if it's easy to come up with a  colour scheme and style that fulfils the twin pronged fronts of selling the product to people who are brand new to the hobby via  scheme that can be replicated fairly simply, and pleasing long term fans.

Exactly. Their painting is not bad, it's just simple and effective, but they always offer in the same book other schemes, more complex quite often. GW is experts in this.

 

2 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

I've taken the advice in this thread and downloaded all the AOS books. Will skim them for goblin stuff. 

 

Just now, GammaMage said:

I have read a lot of the AoS novels, don't remember coming across and grots/goblins. Lots of Ironjaws though.

You won't find goblins in the novels, yes. But, as I've mentioned lots of times, here as well, goblins have lots of attention in the following books: "Everchosen" battletome, "Godbeasts" campaign book, GA Destruction. Maybe I've forgotten something, but this is what has them for sure and quite a lot. 

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1 minute ago, GammaMage said:

I have read a lot of the AoS novels, don't remember coming across and grots/goblins. Lots of Ironjaws though.

Exactly, whereas the old world has tons of cool goblin stuff. I'm new to the whole warhammer thing, so can pick from either for the setting and play AOS for its cool battles. (played fantasy battles as a kid but hardly remember anything). 

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1 minute ago, Menkeroth said:

Exactly. Their painting is not bad, it's just simple and effective, but they always offer in the same book other schemes, more complex quite often. GW is experts in this.

 

 

You won't find goblins in the novels, yes. But, as I've mentioned lots of times, here as well, goblins have lots of attention in the following books: "Everchosen" battletome, "Godbeasts" campaign book, GA Destruction. Maybe I've forgotten something, but this is what has them for sure and quite a lot. 

Cool, will skim those first. Downloaded all the books. 

Edited by Sheriff

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15 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

Kharadrons, to be precise. Since they live in the skies they have lots of enemies there that are sky specific. Sky sharks, flying krakens (yay!), flying goblin pirates and the like. You will never get bored with them :)

Not necessarily. I'd say quite cartoonish is Khorne, but he always was. To some extent the Fyreslayers, although they are better than Khorne in this regard. Sylvaneth or Beastclaw raiders are better still, and so on. But in any case, high fantasy always tends to exaggerate things, so it's quite normal.

speaking of this. Do you know why? Yellow is an excellent choice for posterboys, because it's bright and eye catching but neutral as well, unlike blue or red, for instance. GW knows very well how to catch our eyes.

As with the gold of whatever the main Stormcast chapter is called, the yellow makes Ironjawz immediately recognisable as such.

However, it might be a bit too cartoonish for some tastes, and led to an initial negative response from some quarters (i.e. "they look to 40K", etc).

They hold up really well with a more understated and/or rustic scheme too, because they are, frankly, the best orcs ever produced:

Megaboss10a.jpg

Edited by Kyriakin
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