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BobbyB

The Future - And Past - of the AoS Aesthetic

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Beneath the Black Tumb, the tale of a Lord of Plagues and his farm.  It really is he hasn’t fought in years because they gave won and is settling down to building Nurgles Realm.  Released very shortly after the release of AoS  

There wasn’t anything mentioned about the farming systems in WFB it was just that it was set in quasi historical setting so we assumed they were the same as the ones from our history.  I still feel comparison and demands are unfair.

In the same series of stories, Call of Archaon, we also had humans holding out in Ghyran and being rescued by Stormcast. The same occurred in the Realmgate Wars series more than once. 

It doesn’t matter anyway the setting is so vast just make it up yourself that’s the point there’s very little in the Realms that isn’t possible and that’s great. It’s how it works for 40K and that’s pretty much the feel they were buying into. 

Edited by Ollie Grimwood
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I don't think GW are using old world style cities. They on the surface might be dark dirty cities, but they are still full of high fantasy. 

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6 hours ago, stratigo said:

a setting without farmers is boring. Most people are not content with just "Here is faction A in shiny gold armor fighting faction b daubed in red with a lot of skulls" forever. If you are, more power to you, but I like a setting that I can imagine actually exists, and one where there are no farmers, or bakers, or civilians of any sort to run the societies, gather the food, make the weapons, raise the children, et cetera I find soulless. There's no reason to care about a fight that has no stakes.

This point is false to begin with. Not only are there no named farmers in Age of Sigmar, there arn't in 40K, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones or Starwars for that matter. The opinion you hold on farmers is not only an odd one, it just shows you know little to nothing about the Age of Sigmar narrative and just assume it's about shiny gold/skull red fighting factions. This assumption really makes you look ill informed about the subject altogether. If your looking for historical fantasy, Age of Sigmar won't offer you that (right now).

If you don't want to look into it all, really up to you. There are many cities, thus civillians and extremely different societies. What makes Age of Sigmar different from Warhammer Fantasy is that it's more high fantasy instead of historical fantasy (note last 3 editions where that about WFB, before much less so). 

As a results the stakes are the extremes, they fight for their massive cities, excistance, soul and realm. You might want to look into what high fantasy means. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy You will then likely understand why Age of Sigmar works the way it does and how it's not even unique by the standards of not including farmers. Keep in mind that Age of Sigmar's universe is purposefully massive, thus so are it's subjects. The role of the game is to play with armies, thus the lore focusses on giant armies. Logical also because Games Workshop is selling an army game here, not a story. The latter is the job of the Black Liberary novels.

3 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

If everything is super powerful, nothing is.

We know not everything is super powerful. Look at Warscrolls if you want to know what is a true terror and what isn't.

A mob of Zombies will rarely scare a powerful Hero, a Mourngul is capable of destroying a whole Warband and still leave undamaged.

3 hours ago, MOMUS said:

Its world building. The skirmish, battle or campaign only matters if there is something to fight for. GW has taught us for years to name our characters and build a backstory and rightly so,

Stormcast can be seen as the space marine equivalent, the difference is space marines have the imperium to fight for and the imperium is pseudo represented on the board by guard. It lends a human face and perspective to the game that's full of super soilders and gribbly aliens.

At the end of the day it boils down to how much emotional investment you need as a player, if you only need bad vs good then that's fine, but GW has always tried to be smarter than that by offering many shades of grey. 

I think and I think what the OP is partly saying is that we used to love fighting for the old world but we don't want the old world back, we want something AoS to replace it and the game just doesn't have that yet.

How is the continuation of excisting not something worth to fight for? Do you understand that the impact of destroying the Old World is what formed Age of Sigmar in the first place? Do you understand that several races have fallen to Chaos, Destruction and Death and as a result the fight in some cases is a fight to excist? If anything you could reward AoS because it's not a simple fight about patches of land.

Please read into Stormcast Eternals lore, tey exactly fight for humanity like Space Marines do. They are aware of what they where, they are aware of what they are doing. They are also even doubting the ways they are doing it. All of this is also found in Space Marines.

I think what is said here is that we have fans of historical fantasy, thats totally cool and that's not what Age of Sigmar is. This doesn't mean it's sub-genre within Fantasy is unique or bad. In fact, most popular fantasy designs work in this realm because it allows for the maximum ammount of design space. Nothing is strange, everything can be an extreme. E.g. Kharadron Overlords and Fyreslayers are both Duaradin who came from different realms and their civilisations are incredibly different. Yet they are both Duaradin and reward different characterful aspects. One fought Chaos to the point where they became one with ground elementals, the other outthought Chaos, created amazing technologies and become one with air elementals.

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24 minutes ago, Killax said:

This point is false to begin with. Not only are there no named farmers in Age of Sigmar, there arn't in 40K, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones or Starwars for that matter.
 

How is the continuation of excisting not something worth to fight for? Do you understand that the impact of destroying the Old World is what formed Age of Sigmar in the first place? Do you understand that several races have fallen to Chaos, Destruction and Death and as a result the fight in some cases is a fight to excist? If anything you could reward AoS because it's not a simple fight about patches of land.

Please read into Stormcast Eternals lore, tey exactly fight for humanity like Space Marines do. They are aware of what they where, they are aware of what they are doing. They are also even doubting the ways they are doing it. All of this is also found in Space Marines.

I think what is said here is that we have fans of historical fantasy, thats totally cool and that's not what Age of Sigmar is. This doesn't mean it's sub-genre within Fantasy is unique or bad. In fact, most popular fantasy designs work in this realm because it allows for the maximum ammount of design space. Nothing is strange, everything can be an extreme. E.g. Kharadron Overlords and Fyreslayers are both Duaradin who came from different realms and their civilisations are incredibly different. Yet they are both Duaradin and reward different characterful aspects. One fought Chaos to the point where they became one with ground elementals, the other outthought Chaos, created amazing technologies and become one with air elementals.

Luke  skywalker, uncle Owen and aunt beru were all farmers?

Your continued existance is something worth fighting for, it's just the lowest most primary motivator. Being able to feed yourself is at the bottom of maslows hierarchy of needs, anything above needs civilisation, which is interesting.

I have read stormcast lore, I don't doubt they know what they fight for but they are not the same as space marines. Marines arguably become more human the longer they survive.  Stormcast become less, they're personalities fade the more they die. This compounds another fluff/artistic difference between the two, marines can cheat and take off their helmets. Instantly becoming more relatable,  gold clad golems cannot and again the thing marines fight for is represented on the table top.

I love both the dwarf factions and associated cultures/stories, that's what I want but for the human faction. An AoS human civilisation not a Empire import.

 

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25 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

 

I love both the dwarf factions and associated cultures/stories, that's what I want but for the human faction. An AoS human civilisation not a Empire import.

 

We might all be going a little at cross purposes because I think this is what we’re all after. 

Edited by Ollie Grimwood
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Some of us do for sure, but others like Menkeroth state it's not important or needed.

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41 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

Luke  skywalker, uncle Owen and aunt beru were all farmers?

Your continued existance is something worth fighting for, it's just the lowest most primary motivator. Being able to feed yourself is at the bottom of maslows hierarchy of needs, anything above needs civilisation, which is interesting.

I have read stormcast lore, I don't doubt they know what they fight for but they are not the same as space marines. Marines arguably become more human the longer they survive.  Stormcast become less, they're personalities fade the more they die. This compounds another fluff/artistic difference between the two, marines can cheat and take off their helmets. Instantly becoming more relatable,  gold clad golems cannot and again the thing marines fight for is represented on the table top.

I love both the dwarf factions and associated cultures/stories, that's what I want but for the human faction. An AoS human civilisation not a Empire import.

 

Farmers, racers, sci-fi warriors fighting with sabres while ships can destroy all planets...

In Age of Sigmar's high fantasy the continued existance isn't the lowest most primary motivator. It is the key motivator the game revolves around. It's one aspect of the grimdark historical fantasy Warhammer they kept in there. The storm of chaos in essence has spread to many realms and so far the focus of the lore has been put on those realms. Chaos always was a high fantasy aspect of GW's domain and so far this has been the most covered in AoS' lore.

What we see again and again is that GW is thinkering with Stormcast aswell. While they become less human if they die over and over again, their whole point and strenght is that they don't die that often. Not compaired to some of the infinite Chaos forces. It was a "dead" Bloodthirster who infromed Khorne about the Stormcast in the first place. As is the key with high fantasy, death is not the end. In many ways 40K also doesn't adopt the high fantasy sub-genre, logically Stormcasts arn't exact Space Marines.

I understand what you want, as before, there is room for historial fantasy within Age of Sigmar but due to it being still a relative new game and new lore it hasn't been completely fleshed out yet. However looking for immersion in a miniatures game is a bad plan anyway, I play Khorne, I don't need historical fantasy designs for that. If I wanted great immersion that fits a historical design I'd rather play an RPG anytime. Usually these do not relove around leading armies and thus you have room for farmers, bakers, butchers what you will. Age of Sigmar isn't chracterized like that because the game isn't about that. However there is room for it... What makes Warhammer Underworlds so interesting is that they do have the potential to revolve around that. That game revolves around a handful of characters stranded in a city, fighting not for the greater good of their army but personal goals. 

Edited by Killax
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Eh, once I got over the death of WHFB, I've come to really enjoy the over the top fantasy of AoS.

I agree with the people who think the game should highlight its differences and push the more outlandish ideas that changing the setting can allow. I love quasi-historical armies (I'm painting fantasy Romans at the moment, and would love some of the plastic landsknecht Warlord Games picked up/released to add to my Empire army) but I'd love to see some "normal" humans reflecting the crazy different races in the background.

And, as usual, I also think there's an element of people (not necessarily on this forum) just not having read any of the novels or Realmgate campaign/game books but sticking to their initial assumptions of the game. Dislike it, that's fine (and I din't think you need to buy expensive books to get a good idea of whether you'll like AoS or not), but give the dead-horse beating a rest*

* I may have been guilty of this two years ago :)

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I'm theming my goblin army in the old world, and will imagine all my battles in that setting. Best of both worlds: the awesome gameplay of aos but with a setting you can relate to and care about. 

Playing total war warhammer really helps with the setting as you really feel connected to the map and where all the factions live etc. 

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Quote

 

MOMUS:

I have read stormcast lore, I don't doubt they know what they fight for but they are not the same as space marines. Marines arguably become more human the longer they survive.  Stormcast become less, they're personalities fade the more they die. This compounds another fluff/artistic difference between the two, marines can cheat and take off their helmets. Instantly becoming more relatable,  gold clad golems cannot and again the thing marines fight for is represented on the table top.

 

Actually, Stormcast probably find their humanity the same way, as long as they survive to not be reforged.  Dying for them is quite similar to a Space Marine dying and being interred in a dreadnought, which has been shown many times in the fluff to be very dehumanizing, just obviously a much rarer occurance than Stormcast reforging.

Also about Space Marines removing helmets for relatability, take a look at the growing number of official models who have options for their helmets off for characterization (I think there's at least half a dozen now?) and also the number of us who are doing the same with our own conversions.  Works just the same, and the Space Marine line which began very much the same.  A random faceless Liberator=a random faceless Tactical Brother.  

As for cities, they exist to provide infrastructure (and have to for a good setting), its just that what would be a normal human city like Altdorf in the Old World, the counterpart in AoS would be more like Sharn the city of towers from the DnD Eberron setting.

 

Edited by Aegisgrimm

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8 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Apologies if this was said sarcastically, but humans provide a baseline to compare things that are "bigger", "faster" and "stronger" than what we inherently associate with humans.

If everything is super powerful, nothing is.

Their inclusion also provides a frame of reference from which we, as humans, can identify with more easily.

Of course not, even in the slightest. And in the high fantasy not at all, it functions drastically different, so no.

8 hours ago, MOMUS said:

A setting without farmers is boring. Most people are not content with just "Here is faction A in shiny gold armor fighting faction b daubed in red with a lot of skulls" forever. If you are, more power to you, but I like a setting that I can imagine actually exists, and one where there are no farmers, or bakers, or civilians of any sort to run the societies, gather the food, make the weapons, raise the children, et cetera I find soulless. There's no reason to care about a fight that has no stakes.

No, not at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

2 hours ago, Lousy Beatnik said:

Dislike it, that's fine (and I din't think you need to buy expensive books to get a good idea of whether you'll like AoS or not), but give the dead-horse beating a rest*

True, although there are free wikies where people might read all of this, they just don't want or their little precious imaginary world will come to ruin :)

2 hours ago, Sheriff said:

I'm theming my goblin army in the old world, and will imagine all my battles in that setting. Best of both worlds: the awesome gameplay of aos but with a setting you can relate to and care about. 

 

Then you've chosen the wrong forum, it's not about WHFB. And, of course, WHFB's setting is not that you can care or relate, it is dull, one of the thousands of those and stagnant. You can not be related to a world where nothing happens, although it is completely about war without any farmers actually. 

 

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I still can't believe that people think stormcast are golems after 2 and a half years. They are flesh and blood. Stormcast are far more relatable compared to space marines (in my opinion)because they have clear human history over a young child grown into a super soldier. In a recent novel we have a female stormcast protecting the main human character because they remind her of her grandson. They also feel fear. The fear to die because they don't want to lose their memories. Yet they push on with their mission.

all the stormcast have lost something to chaos. Some are still trying to protect their descendants and reality itself add on the fact with each death they forget their history and their loved ones.

there are storm casts that used to be beggars, farm boys, Kings, princes, mothers and fathers. One hallowed knight was an ex nurgle Lord who is cockney and retains that as a stormcast.

celestial vindicators who are known to be the most hardcore and driven by vengeance against chaos come from very humble or low key backgrounds. One was a fat King who did nothing for his people until the last moment while another was a simple baker.

One main character from the hallowed knights who is a Lord celestant used to be a hospice worker for crying out loud and that plays into why he dislikes war.

chaos is ruining the lives of the people who live in the realms. They are even doing it now to the cities and distorting reality. The storm casts fight because they know what it means to lose someone or something to chaos they lived through it and were chosen by sigmar to fight and prevent that happening to anyone else.

I wonder have people actually read stormcast lore or skimmed it along with reading second hand information.

Edited by shinros
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2 hours ago, Sheriff said:

I'm theming my goblin army in the old world, and will imagine all my battles in that setting. Best of both worlds: the awesome gameplay of aos but with a setting you can relate to and care about. 

Playing total war warhammer really helps with the setting as you really feel connected to the map and where all the factions live etc. 

16 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

Then you've chosen the wrong forum, it's not about WHFB. And, of course, WHFB's setting is not that you can care or relate, it is dull, one of the thousands of those and stagnant. You can not be related to a world where nothing happens, although it is completely about war without any farmers actually. 

Wow. Why do people feel the need to enforce their own opinion on things onto others?

I will admit that Sheriff was on shaky ground when saying that WHFB was "a setting you can relate to and care about", as it perhaps implies that this cannot be the case for AoS.

However, like usual, Menkeroth displays an almost pathological hatred for all things WHFB by suggesting that somebody playing AoS using the old world in his own imagination should go and find another forum.

"You can not be related to a world where nothing happens..."

Thanks for telling me what I can and can't relate to.

Edited by Kyriakin
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22 minutes ago, shinros said:

I still can't believe that people think stormcast are golems after 2 and a half years. They are flesh and blood. Stormcast are far more relatable compared to space marines (in my opinion)because they have clear human history over a young child grown into a super soldier. In a recent novel we have a female stormcast protecting the main human character because they remind her of her grandson. They also feel fear. The fear to die because they don't want to lose their memories. Yet they push on with their mission.

all the stormcast have lost something to chaos. Some are still trying to protect their descendants and reality itself add on the fact with each death they forget their history and their loved ones.

there are storm casts that used to be beggars, farm boys, Kings, princes, mothers and fathers. One hallowed knight was an ex nurgle Lord who is cockney and retains that as a stormcast.

celestial vindicators who are known to be the most hardcore and driven by vengeance against chaos come from very humble or low key backgrounds. One was a fat King who did nothing for his people until the last moment while another was a simple baker.

One main character from the hallowed knights who is a Lord celestant used t be a hospice worker for crying out loud and that plays into why he dislikes war.

 

chaos is ruining the lives of the people who live in the realms. They are even doing it now to the cities and distorting reality. The storm casts fight because they know what it means to lose someone or something to chaos they lived through it and were chosen by sigmar to fight and prevent that happening to anyone else.

I wonder have people actually read stormcast lore or skimmed it along with reading second hand information.

Absolutely, Stormcast have really benefitted from the BL books  for me much the same way the HH books did for Space Marines.  Though Stormcast are far more interesting than Space Marines. 

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38 minutes ago, shinros said:

I wonder have people actually read stormcast lore or skimmed it along with reading second hand information.

I guess they have not, like those who still criticize fyreslayers, for instance.

37 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

@Menkeroth that's a misquote, I didn't say that @stratigo did.

I know, sorry for that, it was browser. Nevermid.

33 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

Thanks for telling me what I can and can't relate to.

Nichts zu danken. I like to tell this, especially to those who observes "hatred" and even "pathological one" in my posts. Come back any time you feel like it.

 

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 I think people should calm down slightly before the thread gets locked just saying.

Edited by shinros
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1 hour ago, shinros said:

 I think people should calm down slightly before the thread gets locked just saying.

Certainly. The thing is, it's up to anyone to like or dislike Age of Sigmar, but the fact remains that unlike Warhammer Fantasy it isn't as historical fantasy influenced. Age of Sigmar is more akin to He-man, Thunder Cats and other high fantasy series in the sence that it doesn't try to blend realism with fantasy. There are no realms thus far that totally match our real world.
To me the Old World was a reflection of a fantasy world akin to ours, the world map also gave factions world locations and as a result we came to expect factions looking like certain civilisations that where around in those areas. However even here a wide mix of fantasy elements was added. It's also no secret that Warhammer Fantasy borrowed a lot of concepts from the Lord of the Rings novels, for better and for worse. 

In the epic Age of Sigmar realms not all is easily identified with, in part because the lore isn't finished. What some seemfully can't wrap their head around is that it's done purposefully. The Old World suffered from repeated concepts, we've had several Storms of Chaos that constantly where set out to destroy the world. At first the joke was that Archaon failed, then fans became upset when he succeeded. However we twist it, the outcome was given because it was so woven through all WFB narrative that at one day the story was done, GW choose to do this at the same time the game started to crumble.
What is a hard pill to swallow is that narrative doesn't solely sell miniatures and if there is a trend for the higher fantasy settings (a trend blown into live largely with pc games like World of Warcraft) it's not odd to push "a failing product" into that direction. If WFB sales where akin to that like 40K, like they where in the 2000's I'm sure we'd still be looking at Warhammer Fantasy right now.

However we look at the fandom, high fantasy isn't 'worse' as historical fantasy, it's just a different style of creating things. The narrative for Age of Sigmar will continue and it's quite possible not all fans will like all narrative but the same was true for Warhammer Fantasy's narrative, some of it was good, a lot of it was stuff I didn't like either. Though if we objectively look at the more succesful range, Age of Sigmar is doing better as Warhammer Fantasy. From my perspective the game is also better because it allows for much more movement as the static blocks of WFB worked with. 

To each it's own is my point. Keep in mind though that Age of Sigmar's aesthetic is truely here to stay and it will likely continue in a high fantasy design, meaning it will create fantasy beings not based on historical beings at all. Hating on it's design on a forum that is a fanbase for it's design is kind of a moot excercise. I don't go to a BMW fan-forum only to state that I like American musscle-cars way better.

Edited by Killax
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4 hours ago, Killax said:

Certainly. The thing is, it's up to anyone to like or dislike Age of Sigmar, but the fact remains that unlike Warhammer Fantasy it isn't as historical fantasy influenced. Age of Sigmar is more akin to He-man, Thunder Cats and other high fantasy series in the sence that it doesn't try to blend realism with fantasy. There are no realms thus far that totally match ours.
To me the Old World was a reflection of a fantasy world akin to ours, the world map also gave factions world locations and as a result we came to expect factions looking like certain civilisations that where around in those areas. However even here a wide mix of fantasy elements was added. It's also no secret that Warhammer Fantasy borrowed a lot of concepts from the Lord of the Rings novels, for better and for worse. 

In the epic Age of Sigmar realms not all is easily identified with, in part because the lore isn't finished. What some seemfully can't wrap their head around is that it's done purposefully. The Old World suffered from repeated concepts, we've had several Storms of Chaos that constantly where set out to destroy the world. At first the joke was that Archaon failed, then fans became upset when he succeeded. However we twist it, the outcome was given because it was so woven through all WFB narrative that at one day the story was done, GW choose to do this at the same time the game started to crumble.
What is a hard pill to swallow is that narrative doesn't solely sell miniatures and if there is a trend for the higher fantasy settings (a trend blown into live largely with pc games like World of Warcraft) it's not odd to push "a failing product" into that direction. If WFB sales where akin to that like 40K, like they where in the 2000's I'm sure we'd still be looking at Warhammer Fantasy right now.

However we look at the fandom, high fantasy isn't 'worse' as historical fantasy, it's just a different style of creating things. The narrative for Age of Sigmar will continue and it's quite possible not all fans will like all narrative but the same was true for Warhammer Fantasy's narrative, some of it was good, a lot of it was stuff I didn't like either. Though if we objectively look at the more succesful range, Age of Sigmar is doing better as Warhammer Fantasy. From my perspective the game is also better because it allows for much more movement as the static blocks of WFB worked with. 

To each it's own is my point. Keep in mind though that Age of Sigmar's aesthetic is truely here to stay and it will likely continue in a high fantasy design, meaning it will create fantasy beings not based on historical beings at all.

Yup I keep saying this to my mates in my store. They changed the setting to make it similar to 40k where things are more open and less defined in a sense the imperium is still discovering planets in the galaxy. Yes we have well known planets like terra etc. We are now getting well known cities in the AOS setting. In 40k there are thousands of planets to fight over and GW can easily create a new one to drive a new narrative with ease.  Like AOS yes we have a map of ghyran but how GW has written the setting they can easily slap on a new piece of land when ever they want due to the open nature of the realms. 

 I agree that WHFB worked better as an RPG or video game setting not a wargame one in my opinion. I was a fan of vampire counts but their lore is pretty much them making mean faces at the empire never moving beyond sylvania. Why? Since they could not upset the setting or shake it up too much because it is defined like a historical setting as you said. 

The setting was written that Chaos is the bad guy that's going to end the world and if the empire fails they end it. If the empire pushes them back? It goes back to the status quo of chaos looming over their head. You would never see a lizardman fighting the empire. You would never see a large scale war against the empire via the dark elves and due to silly lore constraints you would never see humans on Ulthaun helping the high elves against the dark elves. 

All of these things they are reversing case example Seraphon now being able to live in cities with other races and with time become independent . It get's them involved in the setting you can weave TONS of stories about that. I do agree if WHFB did well it would still be here. 

Edited by shinros
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In the miniatures gaming industry it also becomes an example of what works well for specific settings. With this I also completely agree that Warhammer Fantasy lended itself much better for RPG and character building settings instead of full scale world wars, WFB had them though and it was beginning to feel odd. What I like about Age of Sigmar so much in comparison is that practically every battle can make sence, with perhaps the only one making less sence would be Order vs Order and Death vs Death as those two Grand Allegiances in particular seem to "orderly" to fight and kill amongst each other.
To that extend I also think it might be a missed chance to keep Tomb Kings around for Death, it would actually be interesting to have Settra act as a sort of resistance within Death, fighting to claim the right of dying (sort of thing). In that aspect Order has more breathing room, Fyreslayers for example seem quite obsessed with Ur-gold, to the point they have an excuse to fight anyone for it, even other Order armies.

What I do believe though is that both fans will eventually get what they want out of Age of Sigmar. Warhammer Underwolds is a great example for those who really like Skirmish games. With all respect to the creators or Age of Sigmar Skirmish, Shadespire just works out so much better as a game and realm on it's own. It also allows for massive character imput. 
If anything I also think that eventually it would be great for Age of Sigmar to turn the cycle and have a year or two focused on Order versus Death as one of the main lines. This way two different Allegiances will battle it out but both have deep roots into "humans" perhaps making such a war much more relatable for fans of historical fantasy. In the end this is more or less where Games of Thrones workes towards to also. Having former comrades battle each other is often more dramatic as having humans fighting demons or orks. 

There still is a great deal of Age of Sigmar design to be unfolded. Things just don't go as rapid but I personally am a fan of this as I believe thaking the time for something usually leads to a better end result. What I saw with the initial smaller Battletomes is that they where rushed. The hardcover Battletomes that are available for some Factions are just totally worth the money for narrative and matched fans. 

I say it to most I know, I started out very skeptical about Age of Sigmar. I did not like the initial Bloodbound booklet at all. However I truned the moment I saw the more recent and fleshed out Battletomes. They added exactly what I wish they did since the inception. Making several tribes within an army a true army by presenting mixed lore and art, making it visually easier to see them as one giant army out to destroy all in the name of the Bloodgod.

Edited by Killax
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24 minutes ago, Killax said:

In the miniatures gaming industry it also becomes an example of what works well for specific settings. With this I also completely agree that Warhammer Fantasy lended itself much better for RPG and character building settings instead of full scale world wars, WFB had them though and it was beginning to feel odd. What I like about Age of Sigmar so much in comparison is that practically every battle can make sence, with perhaps the only one making less sence would be Order vs Order and Death vs Death as those two Grand Allegiances in particular seem to "orderly" to fight and kill amongst each other.
To that extend I also think it might be a missed chance to keep Tomb Kings around for Death, it would actually be interesting to have Settra act as a sort of resistance within Death, fighting to claim the right of dying (sort of thing). In that aspect Order has more breathing room, Fyreslayers for example seem quite obsessed with Ur-gold, to the point they have an excuse to fight anyone for it, even other Order armies.

What I do believe though is that both fans will eventually get what they want out of Age of Sigmar. Warhammer Underwolds is a great example for those who really like Skirmish games. With all respect to the creators or Age of Sigmar Skirmish, Shadespire just works out so much better as a game and realm on it's own. It also allows for massive character imput. 
If anything I also think that eventually it would be great for Age of Sigmar to turn the cycle and have a year or two focused on Order versus Death as one of the main lines. This way two different Allegiances will battle it out but both have deep roots into "humans" perhaps making such a war much more relatable for fans of historical fantasy. In the end this is more or less where Games of Thrones workes towards to also. Having former comrades battle each other is often more dramatic as having humans fighting demons or orks. 

There still is a great deal of Age of Sigmar design to be unfolded. Things just don't go as rapid but I personally am a fan of this as I believe thaking the time for something usually leads to a better end result. What I saw with the initial smaller Battletomes is that they where rushed. The hardcover Battletomes that are available for some Factions are just totally worth the money for narrative and matched fans. 

I say it to most I know, I started out very skeptical about Age of Sigmar. I did not like the initial Bloodbound booklet at all. However I truned the moment I saw the more recent and fleshed out Battletomes. They added exactly what I wish they did since the inception. Making several tribes within an army a true army by presenting mixed lore and art, making it visually easier to see them as one giant army out to destroy all in the name of the Bloodgod.

Order VS order has occurred in the setting due to the industrialisation coming into ghyran. Those who worshipped the everqueen did not exactly like that. Death VS Death happens ALL the time until someone higher on the pyramid like the deathlords or Nagash tells everyone to get moving for whatever. Also Drycha art she is order but if you mess with the forest or cross her glade? Welp. 

Also daughters of khaine kidnap poor people to sacrifice they just pop up to fight chaos whenever. Same with darkling covens.This one image shows that order vs order can occur plus the previous examples I gave. One thing I am happy with is that order does not equal good. 

 

diana-martinez-drycha-hamadreth.jpg?1498

Edited by shinros
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I'm pretty sure that the Seraphon Battletome said they sometimes appear and attack other order forces for no apparent reason. To anyome who isn't a slann, that is. The epic long-term plans of the Slann mean that sometimes a victory in the wrong place could end up in a worse defeat.

The sylvaneth attacked the Hallowed Knights, only Allarialle telling them to stop prevented a full-scale battle.

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Gotta say, I don't see liking AoS means you have to dislike WHFB and vice versa. I spend as much time on 80s oldhammer and 90s middlehammer as I do here.

I went back and read the original three Dragonlance novels not so long ago. I managed to enjoy them without constantly having to compare it to WHFB or question which is a better setting. (Or even... What the farmers do). Same with Elric.

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Thats the idea, different genres for everybody. I also like that 40k is evolving too, great to have new and cooler tank designs for example.

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