Jump to content

Beastclaw Raiders Load-out Question


Konic

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forums and AoS in general. I have a simple question, yet i'm not sure how to go about figuring this out as there seems to be very mixed views on this topic.

I've decided to collect a force of Beastclaw Raiders as i like the lore and most of all the models. I've decided to build my Mournfang packs to consist of 2 model units.  Both models in the unit are to be equipped with Gargant Hackers while one model, the leader "Skalg" will have an Ironlock Pistol.

I want both the models in the unit to be Horn Blowers and both of the models to also be Banner Bearers as per the war-scroll allows.  Now the question here is that I don't wish to physically model my units of Mournfangs with the banners or the horns, as the Gargant Hackers are held with both hands and there isn't much space to place a banner and a horn on the model anywhere else. Would it be acceptable to say that both models in the unit are carrying these two items along with their weapon?

What are the thoughts of others out there who play AoS?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AoS tournaments seem to be run as WYSIWYG and if you are going to be screwy in your FLGS you're going to irritate people. With regards to the standards your best bet would be something like 
 

mournfang cavalry

Specifically modelling the banner behind them and up the centre of their backs. For the horns you probably want to try attaching them either to the shoulders of the beast or around the front of the saddle.

Sadly to get what you want there will be some modelling involved on your part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First welcome to Age of Sigmar and beastclaw raiders! 

For unit types, you cannot be both a Skalg (the leader) and a Horn Blower, as they are distinct model types. A banner, however, is an item that anyone can hold.

AoS is very much a hobbyist's game, and tends to take situations like this as fun modeling challenge rather than rules hand waving. That being said the FAQ chimes in on the other side of things than your example - the special items should be modeled, but the weapon type is assumed to be the same as the rest of his unit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies.

When it comes to annoying people or trying to cheese my way to get more buffs, this isn't my intentions. As i prefer to keep the units to small groups of two, mainly for battleshock tests, I'm trying to get the unit to have all the useful buffs as per the rules allow.

In terms of tournament rules i'm not too interested as I don't plan on entering any competitive play. Modeling horns onto the units wouldnt be too much of an issue, however the banners may be, partly due to the fact that I dont really like the physical looks for the banners, and for me the way the models look is a big factor in my hobby.

As for the leader not being able to take a banner or be a horn blower, I disagree unless GW have an FAQ on this issue. The warscroll clearly states "Models" may take banners or horns. 

What are your thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few other important things to point out regarding this issue i believe is that, we should really focus on what weapons the units are equipped with rather than the optional extra's. If the warscrolls are read carefully and attention is paid to the wording, I believe most people would agree that modelling the units with the actual weapons rather than the extra's would be easier for both players. I say this with more of a casual play set in mind as tournament rules can change according to different rules that are set. 

To compare this with lets say, Space marines in power armor or Space marines in terminator armor carrying different kinds of grenades, you don't always see them actually on the model itself, however the option to use this war gear is there as its stated in the units rules. The warscrolls in AoS i think clearly distinguish what weapon/war gear choices are an A or B option and then options which let you take something if you wish, while also making clear if a MODEL or MODELS in the unit are able to take them.  

I would like to stress what i'm talking about here is in more of a casual, friendly environment rather than a money prize tournament setting. However i think even in tournaments, letting the opponent know what your groups are equipped with BEFORE the game starts is more than acceptable as long as you have your official list written down, which would have been given to the tournament organizers and supervisors before any battles even start, so you cant say "oh my units actually all have horns" when actually that's not on your list from the start. 

That's just some of my thoughts on the topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Konic said:

As for the leader not being able to take a banner or be a horn blower, I disagree unless GW have an FAQ on this issue. The warscroll clearly states "Models" may take banners or horns. 

What are your thoughts?

The mournfang leader can take a banner, but cannot take a horn. The rules are clear on that, the reasoning I've mentioned in my post above. 

The special items rules wise are more important to show than weapon, according to the FAQ, but if your group wants to do it your own way I can't stop you. You said you were new to the game, so we're just here to tell you what people tend to expect as far as playing by the rules is concerned. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could I ask where I can find the rules which explain why the leader cannot take the horn. As mentioned the warscroll for the Mournfang Pack seems very clear, to me at least, that "MODELS in the unit" can be horn blowers and banner bearers. I may be missing an FAQ or a rule somewhere i may have also over looked. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The leader of this unit is a Skalg."

"Models in this unit may be Horn Blowers."

"Models in this unit may carry Raiding Banners adorned with the skull of a great beast."

So you can see the difference here. Capitalized names of model types are exclusive. With raiding banner, it's an item not a model name, so anyone can hold one in addition to whatever else they are. 

Luckily this means a 2 man unit can have all three options: a Skalg with pistol and a Horn Blower, with either of them having banners. And both having the same weapon loadout of your choice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please excuse me as I don't intended to sound like a troll or like i'm trying to annoy you but where does it say that unit leaders, such as the Skalg, cannot take extra options such as the banner and the horn? If this was the case it would say so in the core rules or the units warscroll? In the warscroll it does say "The leader of this unit is a Skalg" However nothing is noted about the unit leader NOT being able to take a horn and a banner and this also goes for any other model in the unit. The only thing the Skalg gains is the Ironlock Pistol, with nothing else gained or lost in the progress, with no other restrictions mentioned either under the Skalg profile or under the Horn Blowers or Banner Bearer explanations.

The only thing i can see from the warscroll which would NOT be possible to do is to mix the melee weapons, its one or the other and you can only have one Skalg  per unit, and if you do take a Skalg you gain an Ironlock Pistol. Other than this, i see no restrictions at all? 

Again, i ask to seek information and not to cheese things or to troll anyone, and please don't take offence if i question you rather than just taking your word for it because you just said so :D

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Konic said:

Please excuse me as I don't intended to sound like a troll or like i'm trying to annoy you but where does it say that unit leaders, such as the Skalg, cannot take extra options such as the banner and the horn?  

 

Look I've told you three times that the Skalg can take a banner. I know you aren't trying to troll me, but get into the habit of not skimming what people say. There are lots of FAQs and my lunchbreak is over, going over those should be helpful. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Look I've told you three times that the Skalg can take a banner. I know you aren't trying to troll me, but get into the habit of not skimming what people say. There are lots of FAQs and my lunchbreak is over, going over those should be helpful. 

Is there a FAQ on that specific question?  I always thought that this was kind of a defensible characteristic (that Horn Blowers and Skalg are identities and the raiding banner is just something you carry) but still always kind of felt shaky to me so I was never willing to try and model a unit that way.. but maybe that's just going back to like my experiance playing old war-hammer fantasy where you definitely couldn't get more that one banner or musician or champion in a unit.  

So, anyway, Konic, /if/ we are buying into that, then you can still have a two model unit have both options, one model would be the Skalg, and could carry the raiding banner, the other would be a Horn Blower, and it could also be carrying the raiding banner too if desired.  But a Skalg cannot BE a Hornblower because it is already a Skalg; it's like an identity thing, whereas the Raiding banner is just an item of equipment. 

That said, I think you'll find most people would expect/require you to play with a model appropriately showing the banner/horn/champion gun if your wanting the model to be so equipped, BUT what you can do on the other wise, and there is a FAQ for,  it doesn't matter what weapons (if any) a musician or a model with a banner with a banner looks like it has, you can just say it has the same weapon as the rest of the unit.  So you could have a model with a banner in one fist and a horn in the other and no weapon in sight but you are allowed to just say it has the gargant hacker (or culling club, or whatever your choice is) and use that for attacks. 

 

Hope this helps. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heywoah_twitch I fully understand that the Skalg can take a banner. My actual question was if he can take a banner AND a horn, and same goes for the rest of the models in the same unit. I believe it may have been you who was skim reading perhaps?

Thank you Naflem, your reply seems to make the most sense to me at this moment, especially about the "identity" issue you mentioned. The only reason why i question this way of thinking, especially about small units like the Mournfang is that the warscroll still doesn't state that the Skalg cannot take a banner AND be a horn blower.  The "Horn Blower" option clears states that MODELS in the unit can be horn blowers, with no reference to any limitations. Nor does being a Skalg limit you in any way, but instead gives you a missile weapon to use as a bonus, with no mention of any restrictions to access the other options for the unit in the warscroll. 

I haven't played older versions of fantasy, could it be that this whole thing of the leader in the unit not being able to take extra's be a feature from the past players are carrying over?

I have read the FAQ regarding the question about horn blowers and standard bearers, it simply says that any model who is holding a horn or a banner can be assumed to have the same weapons as the rest of the group. While i accept this, i think the reverse should also be true? If my ogre holds a two handed Gargant Hacker, he can also have a banner and a horn without the actual banner and horn being modeled. I ask this as if the banner holder is not holding the actual weapon given and this is accepted, why should it not be acceptable the other way around?

Your thoughts?

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Konic said:

Heywoah_twitch I fully understand that the Skalg can take a banner. My actual question was if he can take a banner AND a horn, and same goes for the rest of the models in the same unit. I believe it may have been you who was skim reading perhaps?

Thank you Naflem, your reply seems to make the most sense to me at this moment, especially about the "identity" issue you mentioned. The only reason why i question this way of thinking, especially about small units like the Mournfang is that the warscroll still doesn't state that the Skalg cannot take a banner AND be a horn blower.  The "Horn Blower" option clears states that MODELS in the unit can be horn blowers, with no reference to any limitations. Nor does being a Skalg limit you in any way, but instead gives you a missile weapon to use as a bonus, with no mention of any restrictions to access the other options for the unit in the warscroll. 

I haven't played older versions of fantasy, could it be that this whole thing of the leader in the unit not being able to take extra's be a feature from the past players are carrying over?

I have read the FAQ regarding the question about horn blowers and standard bearers, it simply says that any model who is holding a horn or a banner can be assumed to have the same weapons as the rest of the group. While i accept this, i think the reverse should also be true? If my ogre holds a two handed Gargant Hacker, he can also have a banner and a horn without the actual banner and horn being modeled. I ask this as if the banner holder is not holding the actual weapon given and this is accepted, why should it not be acceptable the other way around?

Your thoughts?

  

I agree a little bit on what Konic is saying. And i guess i get what you are trying to express.

It just says that the leader of the unit is a Skalg. It does not say that a Horn Blower cannot be the leader of a unit.

So I guess what Konic is trying to say that the Leader who is a Skalg could also be a Horn blower. It doesn't say that a model cannot be both.

If the wording would be that one model could be either a Skalg or a Hornblower I would say it is the way it was mentioned by heywoah_twitch.

 

Here is the description again:

DESCRIPTION A Mournfang Pack has 2 or more models. Some Mournfang Packs are equipped with Culling Clubs or Prey Hackers in one meaty hand, and spiked gauntlets called Iron Fists in the other, which they use to bat aside an enemy’s blows before punching them in the face. Other Mournfang Packs prefer to wield mighty two-handed Gargant Hackers to chop giant monsters down to size, or bisect lesser foes with a single blow. The Mournfangs themselves gore their foes with their massive Tusks.

SKALG The leader of this unit is a Skalg. A Skalg may be armed with an Ironlock Pistol in addition to his other weapons.

HORN BLOWER Models in this unit may be Horn Blowers. You can roll three dice and pick the two highest results when determining the charge distance for a unit if it includes any Horn Blowers.

 

It does not really say that a unit cannot be both a Horn blower and a Skalg.

I think the wording makes it totally possible that one model could be a Horn blower with a banner and also be the Skalg. It also says "Models in this unit may be Horn Blowers" which means that every model of a unit could still be a Horn blower and also wear a banner. So it would be possible that the whole unit wears banners, consists of Horn Blowers and has one Skalg Horn Blower leader with a banner.

For me Konic's argumentation totally makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Infeston, i'm glad someone else can see the point i'm trying to make.

I also forgot to mention that pointing out a "leader" of a unit, in this case the Skalg, is obviously important as unit leaders usually get slightly better stats or extra abilities which need to be taken into consideration. However by giving the leader of the unit a name or a title doesn't automatically exclude him from benefits the unit may take unless clearly specified in the units warscroll. I would also assume this would be the case with any alterations to a units composition, if something special is added to the unit and only one of this upgrade is allowed, it should state with either "a or one model" or a similar description, as you can clearly read on other units warscrolls in AoS. 

From my experience of GW games, they make it clear what the leader can and cannot take as war gear or any imitations which apply to units when it comes to upgrades or war gear choices and in this particular case for the Mournfang Pack i think the entire unit can take horns and banners if they so wish. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not a 100% sure of wording in this instance but I believe models in a unit of liberators can take Grandhammers, models in a unit of Blood Warriors can take Goreglaives. Either can be equipped to the champion.

So I would say if it says models in the unit may take (i.e. Banners) then yes the Skalg can grab a banner.

if it says models in the unit can be (i.e. Hornblower) then they can be the hornblower or the skalg not both. So skalg with banner is okay, hornblower with banner is okay. Skalg with horn is not okay

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Skalg can take a banner but not a horn, that wouldn't make much sense to me as the wording used to give models in the unit a banner is the same as the horn while also making no mention of not being able to take both, this applies for the Skalg.

Being a horn blower isn't a one model option for the mournfang unit, as I've mentioned before, it allows "models in the unit" implying more than one model can be a horn blower with no exception mentioned.

Xelotath you say Skalg with horn is not okay, where do I find the rule stating this? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

5 hours ago, Xelotath said:

I'm not a 100% sure of wording in this instance but I believe models in a unit of liberators can take Grandhammers, models in a unit of Blood Warriors can take Goreglaives. Either can be equipped to the champion.

So I would say if it says models in the unit may take (i.e. Banners) then yes the Skalg can grab a banner.

if it says models in the unit can be (i.e. Hornblower) then they can be the hornblower or the skalg not both. So skalg with banner is okay, hornblower with banner is okay. Skalg with horn is not okay

The thing is that it says "Models in this unit may be Horn Blowers". If it would say "One model in this unit may be a Horn Blower" I would agree. Also it doesn't clarify the identity thing in the warscroll. We just assume that it would be that way. But if you only look at the wording it could be possible that a Skalg may also be a Hornblower.

If you look at the weapon types it seems very clear. There it says "Some may be equipped with this. Other may be equipped with that". The wording cannot be misinterpreted. But the way it is written for the Skalg and the Horn Blower there could be different interpretations.

Also the wording for the Skalg isn´t the same  as the Horn Blower. The leader of a unit is automatically a Skalg. It does not say: "You may choose one model to be the leader, this model is a Skalg. As Skalg wields...". It does simply say "The leader of this unit is a Skalg. It does also not say if this is a special kind of unit type like a Horn Blower.

It just states what the leader of the unit is called, not that it is a special unit type.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back from work, I see the discussion has continued. The faq i remembered saying something about this that i was referring to before was about unit options like drummers and stuff. Didn't have time to find it on my phone over lunch. 

I don't see any reason why a model could double up on seemingly exclusive jobs. Why even use capitalized proper nouns if not to differentiate them? And then not use a new name for a model holding a banner? Two have names and one doesn't in the ruled text, that seems pretty implicative for intention:

One's a Skalg, others are Horn Blowers, and any of them can carry Raiding Banners. This is the most logical interpretation.

"It doesn't say I can't" is pretty unconvincing in this case, but the rules question part of the forum could help a stalemate. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the FAQ:

Q: How do models like horn blowers and standard bearers work? Do they lose the weapons they would otherwise carry, or do you just gain the benefits of the upgrades without penalty?

A: You just gain the benefits unless specifically stated otherwise. The model is assumed to still have any weapons it had before it was upgraded, even if the weapons are not shown on the model itself.

I find this interesting, as it allows horn blowers and standard bearers to be modelled without the "real" weapons of choice in order to display these items. If i choose to model my ogres with two handed Gargant Hackers and then choose to give them banners and horns, i believe the opposite should also hold true, even if i don't model the horn or the banner.

Here is another FAQ which is interesting:

Q: Can the leader of the unit take special weapons, like a Grandhammer?

A: Yes.

So in the warscroll for the Liberators, it simple says 1 in 5 models in a unit can take a Grandhammer. It doesn't say the leader of the group CAN or CAN'T so it is assumed he can and this FAQ kind of proves that i think? If there is a restriction on something i think GW would point it out. I think this helps prove a little that the Skalg can be a Skalg and take both a horn and a banner.

As for the "exclusive jobs" like the horn blower or banner holder, this i think doesn't hold true due to the wording used in the warscroll for this particular unit. As mentioned many times it clearly states "MODELS" in the unit, which to me clearly implies multiple models can take both the horn and OR the banner including the Skalg. 

By saying that the Skalg and horn blower are exclusive and single models only- per unit is false, with the exception of the Skalg being true as only one per unit can be taken as its clearly mentioned. I would say the statement by heywoah_twitch "One's a Skalg, others are Horn Blowers, and any of them can carry Raiding Banners. This is the most logical interpretation."  may sound logical" but for me it's clearly not the rules for this unit. 

If a warscroll has a name for a particular model or piece of war gear, like the horn, i believe it's given a name and a small section on the warscroll to explain what this piece of war gear gives to the UNIT or MODEL(S) unless it's stated on the warscroll that A/ONE MODEL may be whatever, then it leaves room to think why it would have been worded otherwise no?

I would say again, i think this type of "logical" thinking may be players carrying things over from different editions? I don't know.

As for me saying where does it say in the rules i can't, this is a totally valid question, as your reply to my question is even weaker to be honest, you can't provide any WRITTEN rules apart from what you think is right, where as what i'm pointing out is written on the warscroll for the unit with nothing else which contradicts it that i know of myself.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mod hat - @Konic and @heywoah_twitch, just a very gentle reminder to play nice please guys. Your exchanges are starting to verge on the kind that I don't want to see on these forums, especially not here in the Destruction sub forum.

Anyway...

Megaboss hat back on - This is actually a really interesting topic. First thing to address is the FAQ;

48 minutes ago, Konic said:

Here is the FAQ:

Q: How do models like horn blowers and standard bearers work? Do they lose the weapons they would otherwise carry, or do you just gain the benefits of the upgrades without penalty?

A: You just gain the benefits unless specifically stated otherwise. The model is assumed to still have any weapons it had before it was upgraded, even if the weapons are not shown on the model itself.

I find this interesting, as it allows horn blowers and standard bearers to be modelled without the "real" weapons of choice in order to display these items. If i choose to model my ogres with two handed Gargant Hackers and then choose to give them banners and horns, i believe the opposite should also hold true, even if i don't model the horn or the banner.

I'm sorry @Konic but this FAQ does absolutely not give you permission to not model banners and horns. This FAQ very specifically tells you something and we certainly can't just go assuming the reserve I'm afraid.

The modelling convention is 100% to model banners and horns if you want the benefits for them. As others have said though, if you and your mates decide to ignore this and just grant the benefits to the units regardless, that is completely fine and totally cool. Just don't expect to walk into a GW, FLGS or tournament and expect the same to hold true.

Now, on the subject of what certain models can be/hold, I do find this very intriguing. I do completely agree that there is some hangover here from WFB that our units can have a "Command Group" - 1x Champion, 1x Standard Bearer, 1x Musician. Now we already know it doesn't work like that in AoS. Sure, you get your Champion (Leader), but you can take multiple banners and drummers/hornblowers/whatever in your unit and we have seen this, especially in units with multiple banner options.

Reading the Mournfang Pack warscroll, I think I've come round to the idea that your Skalg can actually be a hornblower (he's still a model in the unit, right?*) and hold a banner, all the while packing an Ironlock Pistol and a Gargant Hacker!

*This appears to be the only stipulation, it's not "models in the unit, except the Skalg..."

It's been established that unit Leaders elsewhere can take special weapons (Judicator Prime with the Shockbolt Bow I'm looking at you!) and I really can't see anything that stops them being banner bearers or musicians as well. It definitely feels a bit "wrong", but that's probably coming from years of WFB.

I think I'll make some further enquiries with GW here, perhaps just to establish intent.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Chris your inquiry into this would help if GW can shed light on the question.

As for not modelling banners or horns, that was more of a question / thought. I understand tournament play has strict rules and I totally accept it. In casual play, as you mentioned, anything can go really. I personally don't like the models holding the banner or a horn, so I choose not to model them that way. For me the way models look is a big factor in my hobby as previously mentioned. I will say however, it does seem alittle "unfair" that it's okay to assume they have the same weapons while showing banners or horns on the actual models. Another point would be, way I wanted everyone to have horns and banners, the mournfang kit doesn't come with enough pieces, what then? :P

Is it possible for me to contact GW myself with questions like these? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Konic said:

Thanks Chris your inquiry into this would help if GW can shed light on the question.

As for not modelling banners or horns, that was more of a question / thought. I understand tournament play has strict rules and I totally accept it. In casual play, as you mentioned, anything can go really. I personally don't like the models holding the banner or a horn, so I choose not to model them that way. For me the way models look is a big factor in my hobby as previously mentioned. I will say however, it does seem alittle "unfair" that it's okay to assume they have the same weapons while showing banners or horns on the actual models. Another point would be, way I wanted everyone to have horns and banners, the mournfang kit doesn't come with enough pieces, what then? :P

Is it possible for me to contact GW myself with questions like these? 

The FAQ is really written for larger units, where the majority of the models have the proper weapons. In that case, it is very clear what weapon options the unit as a whole uses, and you can assume that command models have the same weapons as the rest. The Mournfang is a special case where this doesn't quite work, since you can have units consisting of two models. Still, the FAQ is clear - banners and horns must be modeled!

For casual play, perhaps you can check with the people you will play regularly to see if they are okay with the horns and banners not being visible on the models? Either way, saying that every single model has both a banner and a horn without modeling any of them will be seen as abusive by most players. In fact, it would be seen as abusive by most even if you modeled all of them! In terms of the kit not coming with enough pieces, the most honest response there is "tough luck". Kits typically come with the intended amount of pieces, and converting/modeling beyond the intended amount will annoy people, whether you agree with that or not. It will be considered "modeling for advantage". You won't see players fielding units of 40 Skeletons all carrying banners AND horns, and if you did, those players would be shunned. It may sound harsh, but that's the way it is.

In this case, you're asking if you can "model for advantage" without even doing the modeling part :P The straight up answer is no, unless you'll play exclusively with close friends you shouldn't do this. People will be annoyed and/or offended whether you like it or not, and that is enough reason not to do it. I agree with you that holding the Gargant Hackers is visually appealing, so I'd look at attaching the horns and banners elsewhere on the models. The horn, for example, can be hung from the saddle, and the banner can be strapped to the back. If you don't like the specific look of the banner, you can use one from another kit or make your own from plasticard or even paper!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...