Let's chat: Garrek's Reavers

[Killax]

Well every sidestep and confusion can put you on a Objective too. As before standing on them doesnt have to interfere with either offensive or defensive stratagies. It just a matter of reading the board and set a plan for a Round.

Its true that there are 12 Activations but several Objectives also do double duties and interact with Objectives. Supremacy, Plant a Flag and Defender synergise with the Holds extremely well. Then Karsus his ranged attack adds to the plan aswell. Making him possibly useful when on a Ojective too.

 

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

I'm having fairly decent results with my KBB objective deck. Basically, 8 out of 12 objectives are based on holding stuff, with the other four being divide and conquer, ploymaster, superb strategist and champion of khorne just in case. For upgrades and ploy I generally focus on stuff like generating shards, moving characters, soultrap and the upgrade that lets you switch objectives. It's fun to play, not very engaging to play against.

I generally try to get the board in vertical, and placing the objectives at the back end.

[Killax]

Have updated my deck too, will report how it went tomorrow, first beginners tournament. Its Universal heavy

[Sleboda]

Btw, just finished (in a drunken haze) my band.

Shoot. Sorry! Meant to put this in another thread.  Mods, feel free to delete.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Sleboda

[Killax]

34 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Btw, just finished (in a drunken haze) my band.

Someone got to those Reavers before Khorne did

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Btw, just finished (in a drunken haze) my band.

Those colours remind me of a warband I saw in tg, are you from germany by any chance?

[Killax]

So had a tournament yesterday (November 11th) was a lot of fun but also still confirmed my current feeling about Bloodreavers and that's that I either don't understand them (and do get good results with others) or they are just ever so slightly worse as the other Warbands. Going 3-1, winning only from Bloodreavers, losing to Orruks and Stormcast twice. 

Deck in question was:

Final Blow
Khorne Calls
Insensate
Shardfall
Illusionary Fighter
Time Trap
Distraction
Parry 
Sidestep
Shattering Terrain

Frenzy
Bloodslick
Wicked Blade
Whirlwind of Death
Great Strenght
Daemonic Weapon
Soultrap
Helpful Whispers
Shardcaller
Great Fortitude

Hold 1-5
Blood for the Bloodgod
It Begins
Determined Defender
Ploymaster
Let the Blood Flow
Khorne Cares Not
Spremacy

If anything it's not the Ploys, Upgrades or Objectives I disliked, it's simply the Warband not being able to withstand the same damage like Stormcast, Orruks or even Undead. The fact that we have Garrek, Saek, Karsus and a random Arnulf or Targor to work with just does not consistantly add up to 4 damage. Perhaps if I rolled some essential Criticals at the right turns some games would have been different but even with a single Distraction it feels like a moot excersize, because Orruks, Stormcast and Undead do have a build in Distraction aswell. While Saek certainly did his job, because of the pushes the others are just not hitting consistantly enough for my liking. In addition to that, they still are the hardest to Inspire, for sure it's going to happen but so far I have not seen a single game where Stormcast and Orruks where unable to do it sooner. In addition to that, with the Harvester you essentially are Karsus inspired and The Champion's Cleave just does so much more as good rolls from Saek do.

In retrospect again, what I did like where the cards and the deck.
- Shardfall remains amazing
- Illusionary Fighter is a great way to keep Saek alive, I stayed in the game because of this
- Time Trap again is a great way to get the most out of Saek, perhaps if I did play against the Sepulchral Guard I would have gotten another win...
- "Distraction effects" are certainly what this deck is lacking and others do have. The effect this has is just immense on the game, in the Core set games I felt this might be a Stormcast exclusive but because it isn't it hurts the Bloodreavers even more. The moment you do surround someone you actually don't. The moment you might have an Hold Objective, you can lose it in the last Activation of a phase. 
- Parry works well, again can see this being even better in Stormcast and Orruks offcourse.
- Shattering Terrain is an excellent card, incredible even, thing is, it's even better against Bloodreavers and Undead as it is against Stormcast and Orruks.

• Daemonic Waepon is fantastic, for Orruks, Undead and Bloodreavers a must include.
• Soultrap seems like an all inclusion for every deck to me, again Saek kept doing something in all games but by comparison it's certainly not enough.
• Helpful Whispers is great, close to an auto-include for all, though some decks have better exclusive Upgrades for sure.
• Shardcaller is good but Bloodreavers are indeed likely too aggressive for it, still would include it for the Sepulchral Guard, I got my Glory out of it for sure.

Lastly I think Ploymaster is going to be an auto-include for pretty much all decks. The moment you ditch a Upgrade heavy hand initially because Upgrade heavy hands are difficult to play anyway you have an automatical score, which is just excellent.

Hope you guys will do much better as me! Will give not leave the Bloodreavers completely alone because I converted the Warband and have some painting to do but will not bring them the 2nd of December when the next tournament will occur.

Feel free to share any very succesful decks and strategies though, it's clear that I can't pilot them to victory. Games are close but Targor nor Arnulf can compete with the other Warband's "4th guy". While Stormcast have no 4th guy to begin with hitting like bricks makes a larger difference as having a 5th dude who per Activation can't do anything. 

[ledha]

i came out of the first shadespire tournament in Paris.

15 players, 6 stormcast, 4 ironjaw, 3 khorne, 2 squelettons

i finished 7th, as the first khornate. The 6 first place are stormcast/stormcast/ironjaw/ironjaw/stormcast/stormcast/me/reste of the khornate, dead, ironjaw and stormcast

i can do a quik report for peoples interested. But my first observations :

- the ironjaw seems to be the top fog for me. They can really do crazy things, and have evrything you want : hard hitter, resilient, good coverage with 4 guys. And their specific cards are beyond awesome

- the stormcast do very good result even with basic strategies, and are close to a noob killer. Very hard to handle for the first timers

- khorne have good argument, but the presence of two guys with 2 hp is a huge drag. Even more since one (Arnulf) need to be exalted to be useful. Targor, however, is useless. He doesn't have any utility. Just here to cap.  I feel that, unlike the stormcast, the basic cards are not really enough for the bloodreavers to compete with the others warband.

- skellies have lot of potential, but need lot of practice, and all their players were total beginners

i feel like some armies have the upper hand against others : stormcast>ironjaw>khorne>squellies>stormcast

- the extensions have VERY good cards, especially in the power deck. Most of them are auto include in my eyes

- a good start in the first turn and the abilitie to spam ameliorations with it make easy to snowball a bit too hard.

- a bad objective deck is a dead game. you should REALLY work on it the most. Mine was not that good. I tried to take very different cards to always have something to do, but at the end, they were countering each other more than anything. You can do a generalist power deck, but i don't think you should with the objective deck.

- Garrek is a good character, and the only "tank" of the team. Must be the frontliner and annoy the ennemy with his placement. However, as a "team leader", i really think he is... weak ? The stormcast/ironjaw and skellies team leader are all very strong with unique abilities, while garrek is... as good as any other member ?

- Saek is a damage monster, but everyone focus him. The fact that all his ameliorations boost his charge and nothing else mean you can't really exploit him to his full potential more than one time, and i think it's hard to use him efficiently.

- Karsus is incredible. The ranged attack is DOPE, his personnal ameliorations are awesome. My MVP in all my games (except my CATASTROPHIC against the ironjaw). Cherish him. Love him. 

- Arnulf is weak, but only need to be exalted+one amelioration (dmg or malefic blade) to be incredibly useful. A good can opener. Too bad he die as soon as someone watch him.

- Targor is a useless pile of trash and have nothing for him. Just good to sit on a objective or to be the first frontliner to bait the ennemy and bringe the rest of the team closer to exaltation

- the fact that most of team use sword for dmg and dodge for defense mean they are quite bad at hitting and defense themselves. Very frustrating

I really think arnulf and targor should have 3 hp. Everyone in every warband has a role, with the captain being generally the best, but having two member straight-up WORSE than the other i awful. Sure, the skellies hae 3 of them, but don't NEED them to do the job in the killing department

Edited November 12, 2017 by ledha

[Biboune]

(my english is broken, please excuse me: in I am french)

 

I have, may be, played  in the same tournoi as ledha; but i got my bottom kicked... badly...

 

Holding objecties is ok, hodling 1-2 or 3-4 are ... bof (french way to say "mhe" i guess)

I feel khorne-nakeked gyes are hard to play. And to be be exactiled most of the time we hot to be killed: easy glory point for the other guy, and i spent 4 activation to kill a  stortmcast...

[Juicemonger]

Has anyone been experimenting with the "guard" action? Models with "dodge" defense dice gain more from it than those with shield defense dice. Reavers will still die, but even if it saves a model or 2 from getting one shot then we gain some ability to make use of the Support bonuses. I think, deploying Garrek out front, put him on Guard, and see if your opponent takes the bait is an interesting opening.

[Killax]

8 hours ago, ledha said:

i came out of the first shadespire tournament in Paris.

15 players, 6 stormcast, 4 ironjaw, 3 khorne, 2 squelettons

i finished 7th, as the first khornate. The 6 first place are stormcast/stormcast/ironjaw/ironjaw/stormcast/stormcast/me/reste of the khornate, dead, ironjaw and stormcast

i can do a quik report for peoples interested. But my first observations :

- the ironjaw seems to be the top fog for me. They can really do crazy things, and have evrything you want : hard hitter, resilient, good coverage with 4 guys. And their specific cards are beyond awesome

- the stormcast do very good result even with basic strategies, and are close to a noob killer. Very hard to handle for the first timers

- khorne have good argument, but the presence of two guys with 2 hp is a huge drag. Even more since one (Arnulf) need to be exalted to be useful. Targor, however, is useless. He doesn't have any utility. Just here to cap.  I feel that, unlike the stormcast, the basic cards are not really enough for the bloodreavers to compete with the others warband.

- skellies have lot of potential, but need lot of practice, and all their players were total beginners

i feel like some armies have the upper hand against others : stormcast>ironjaw>khorne>squellies>stormcast

- the extensions have VERY good cards, especially in the power deck. Most of them are auto include in my eyes

- a good start in the first turn and the abilitie to spam ameliorations with it make easy to snowball a bit too hard.

- a bad objective deck is a dead game. you should REALLY work on it the most. Mine was not that good. I tried to take very different cards to always have something to do, but at the end, they were countering each other more than anything. You can do a generalist power deck, but i don't think you should with the objective deck.

- Garrek is a good character, and the only "tank" of the team. Must be the frontliner and annoy the ennemy with his placement. However, as a "team leader", i really think he is... weak ? The stormcast/ironjaw and skellies team leader are all very strong with unique abilities, while garrek is... as good as any other member ?

- Saek is a damage monster, but everyone focus him. The fact that all his ameliorations boost his charge and nothing else mean you can't really exploit him to his full potential more than one time, and i think it's hard to use him efficiently.

- Karsus is incredible. The ranged attack is DOPE, his personnal ameliorations are awesome. My MVP in all my games (except my CATASTROPHIC against the ironjaw). Cherish him. Love him. 

- Arnulf is weak, but only need to be exalted+one amelioration (dmg or malefic blade) to be incredibly useful. A good can opener. Too bad he die as soon as someone watch him.

- Targor is a useless pile of trash and have nothing for him. Just good to sit on a objective or to be the first frontliner to bait the ennemy and bringe the rest of the team closer to exaltation

- the fact that most of team use sword for dmg and dodge for defense mean they are quite bad at hitting and defense themselves. Very frustrating

I really think arnulf and targor should have 3 hp. Everyone in every warband has a role, with the captain being generally the best, but having two member straight-up WORSE than the other i awful. Sure, the skellies hae 3 of them, but don't NEED them to do the job in the killing department

I can only agree. Frankly speaking 3 HP on a 4th guy would help but so would 3 damage on a second. For me Garrek is hanging back most of the time in order to hope him see Inspired. This is obviously not ideal but rushing him in head first still makes him an easy kill. 4 HP is allright but without any special Action(s) like the Warden, Range 2 attack like the Warden or different way of getting Inspired like the Warden I feel (unfortunatly) confident in stating he is the worst Warband leader in the game.
- Steelheart has 2 hammers 3 damage and easy flip, - Gurzag has 2 hammers 3 damage and additional health and - The Warden has 1 range extra and two additional Actions. So from a game designer's perspective I don't know what's going on with Garrek. 

As you and @Biboune have also shown, the moment we step away from standard Core set deck construction (even within the vacume of the Core set) I just feel that Bloodreavers start with just one relevant model, which indeed is Saek. Movement 4 helps but the fact the board can be choked to 3 Hexes means it stops being a real bonus the moment you do that. As a result practically all Warbands have a reason to do it but Bloodreavers.

From my perspective both Orruks and Stormcast are top dog. I think Orruks have some advantages over Stormcast too but Inspiring as easy as Stormcast do is fantastic aswell. In addition Obryn can obtain Cleave inspired without Upgrades. I was initially under the impression that Bonekutta would have that aswell but he doesn't. Cleave is a massive game changer against Orruks and Stormcast. Having it early means you can simply chop through all forms of defences most of the time.

Lastly I agree that from a Warband design view I too think Garrek's Reavers are missing something. Wether this is additional health, an attack dice or damage to me is a bit up in the air but it would be certainly something of that. In addition I also feel that Garrek's Power cards are currently the weakest of all decks, which certainly does not help.

This is funny too as the Facebook page even more or less confirmed that feeling for me. They stated the following 3 top cards:

- Blood Offering is neat but doesn't come close to re-rolling attacks, making another attack or most specifically adding damage to an attack. It's both funny and a little sad that Bloodreavers are in reality also the only Warband who cannot go to 4 damage.
- Whirlwind of Death and Great Strenght would make this list add up to 4 'best cards'. ANY double Upgrade combination is fantastic. Whirlwind of Death is good but what makes it strictly worse as Great Strenght is the Karsus exclusive tag.
- Rebirth in Blood... Well it shouldn't even be here  add Insensate first...

All in all, while we could debate wether Orruks or Stormcast are the best I do feel Bloodreavers are the weakest. There are several Power card replicates in all three other decks that somehow arn't allowed in Garrek's deck. Thinking about re-rolling missed attacks (or making another one), pushing enemies or just dealing another damage with a ploy. 
 

4 hours ago, Biboune said:

I have, may be, played  in the same tournoi as ledha; but i got my bottom kicked... badly...

Holding objecties is ok, hodling 1-2 or 3-4 are ... bof (french way to say "mhe" i guess)

I feel khorne-nakeked gyes are hard to play. And to be be exactiled most of the time we hot to be killed: easy glory point for the other guy, and i spent 4 activation to kill a  stortmcast...

Yep. Well needless to say, going 1-3 feels like getting your bottom kicked aswell. I agree Hold Objectives can feel mweh for them but to me the Hold Objectives arn't the issue. The rest of the Power deck and Warband is. The moment you run them with other Warbands and do get great results you can't really blame the cards anymore.

34 minutes ago, Juicemonger said:

Has anyone been experimenting with the "guard" action? Models with "dodge" defense dice gain more from it than those with shield defense dice. Reavers will still die, but even if it saves a model or 2 from getting one shot then we gain some ability to make use of the Support bonuses. I think, deploying Garrek out front, put him on Guard, and see if your opponent takes the bait is an interesting opening.

I have but there is nothing within the exclusive Power or Objective cards that actually rewards those lines of play. Going on Guard is always an option but in many aspects you are also wasting an Activation because there are many cards who fix your defences through Ploys.

What I am missing in Garrek's Exclusives are:
- A way to deal +1 damage on an attack. Blood Offering or Khorne Calls are nice but ultimately it still leads to a maximum of 3 damage, exclusively for Saek. So far it's common that this card shows up in other decks.
- Fuelled by Slaughter now basically has to be an adjacent fighter. This is neat and all but again we see re-rolls of missed attacks in all other decks.
- All decks have the "Distraction" ploy as an exclusive but Garrek's Reavers. While it's certainly true that the one for Orruks has to be an Adjacent model, pushing enemy models is such a massive part of the game that it can be viewed as another weakness in the Power deck. Other decks work with 2 Distractions, more if you want to include Confusion or Sidestep etc. It means you have board control. Because wether or not you use it to extend your range or push someone from an Objective the effect of it is massive. Even more when it's used in conjunction with Shattering Terrain.
- From all the cards in our deck, nothing but Insensate is really objectively good in any situation. As much as it hurts me to say it, for competitive reasons I think playing Bloodreaevers is playing the hardest Warband out there because it's objectively the worst.

Again, anyone with great results at this point with Bloodreavers is free to give me a shout! As before I'll test some of the decks in the friendly games but with only 4 Khorne exclusive ploys in my Power deck I'm starting to wonder what the point of it is.

[someone2040]

I don't have the experience to comment on whether the negativity is well founded, but I do think there are 2 upcoming expansions which will provide greater insight as to how well the Bloodreavers will do.

The first is the Skaven release. Why is this important? In theory, the Skaven should operate somewhat similarly to the Bloodreavers. Lots of numbers, weak attackers, and fast to move around. The neutral cards therefore will likely offer more to the Bloodreavers which feel similar, than perhaps to other warbands.

The second is the Khorne Bloodwarriors release. We don't know how far off that is, but my understanding is that we'll be able to use almost all the cards in that set (apart from character specific upgrades). Basically I understand that any Khorne card will be able to put in a Garreks Reavers  or Magores Fiends deck. This could come with some powerful Khorne themed cards to help the Reavers out.

 

[Wallack]

I doubt that, I think they will be different factions and faction specific cards won't be compatible because that would make those 4 bands the more customizable ones and wouldn't be fair.

[Killax]

@someone2040 as @Wallack said we have about 90% confirmation that the "Khorne and Stormcast cards" will not be interchanable with other "Khorne and Stormcast Warbands". The rulesbook basically covers this aswell on the pages with deck construction. While the universal symbols are used for the two Core Set Warbands I think the following Khorne and Stormcast Warband will actually sport different symbols aswell. 

Other than that I do agree with you @someone2040 that Skaven will be a very interesting Warband as their design from an outsiders point of view is bound to mimic that of what we know of the Bloodreavers. As mentioned elsewhere:
- It's very likely Skaven will have high Movement too, perhaps they will even start with 5 but are certainly going to be Movement 4+.
- It's extremely likely Skaven will have one or more warriors with range 2 weapons also, two models sport a Spear and so far a Spear has been synonymous for range 2 weapons. Based on the Warden. 
- It's very likely Skaven will have the Dodge symbol as defence too, two of them do sport heavier armour but as we can see with the Sepulchral Guard sporting armour (even heavy) is not a guarantee for Shield symbol defences. My personal gut feeling does tell me they perhaps might be 2 guys with Shield defence (Skarsnik and the Shield/Flail Skaven) and the others have Dodges, they look very much like Assassins. 
- Five guys, an exact replica of the Bloodreaver Warband size.

Other than that, as above and I really want to repeat this. It´s completely possible that I don´t get how Bloodreavers should be played, even after 20 games. As a former MtG player I started playing Aggro, followed with Midgame and Control. Perhaps the Bloodreaver Warband is more reliant on combo´s as I realize and because of that my results have been poor with them. Just because I feel I have a good feeling on how Khorne should be played with Age of Sigmar does not mean I can say the same about Shadespire.
What I can say is that the goal to winning with Steelhart, Ironskulls or Guard is much more clear to me. This is again completely based on a personal experience that doesn´t mean it´s an absolute truth. Afteral Bloodreavers did became second on Blood and Glory and in that it could even have actually won if the player in question wanted to make an issue of the illigal play the Sepulchral Guard player made.

Now with all of this I'm still not going to completely throw the towel in the corner  
- Illusonary Fighter is still very good and almost exclusively good to Garrek's Reavers, the re-deploy keeps Saek alive and as we all know, this is of utmost importance.
- Fueled by Slaughter due to Distraction allows for some more combo set ups to be made. It's still no guarantee but it's certainly more likely as before.
- I personally don't think that Khorne Calls or Blood Offering should be in the deck anymore, which sounds silly at first but the issue I have with these cards is that they do not improve damage output. It's nice to have a close to guaranteed Hit but what I am constantly looking for is to improve the probability of dealing 3 damage with more than just Saek. Cards like On your Feet or Shattering Terrain are also niche but work way more towards the goal that otherwise is out of reach; killing 3 oppossing models and then flip, not have 3 of our guys dead and hope for the best.
- Time Trap is just excellent and likely "the best" for Bloodreavers due to our threat ranges of [5]. In addition to that all of us have gotten custom to having Saek die at some point to, which is much less of a concern if he actually made double Attack actions, ideally through a Charge and another one but all is fine if he somehow doesn't have to charge.

Lastly the experiment I'm also still very intrueged by so far is to play Bloodreavers with 'long boards'. The prime reason I like this is because it still allows for a 5 hex connection (our Warband size) but also increases the distance between Warbands usually by a hex. Which so far has been ideal for [5] threat ranges. Interestingly enough placing the board this way also means you have a deeper board of 8 Hexes, which again could be the advantage I'm looking for...

[Killax]

Objective card review 2.0
To start of where I want to have my Garrek's Reavers go I think it's wise to re-evaluate several Objectives over and over again. Especially due to every set containing very interesting new choices which really influence Objective decks. As our Power decks change, obviously, so should our Objective deck.

Khorne
(1) Coward! - So far have still not seen a good reason to include it. Ironskull's, Steelheart's and Guard simply don't have much reasons to go away from the Bloodreavers in my experience. While it remains a possible neat inclusion I believe Containment has given another reason to really never Move away. Not before hitting that is...
(1) Blood for the Bloodgod - Remains a very solid inclusion. Especially thanks to the aggressive Orruk game it bound to occur. Will certainly keep including it.
(1) A Worthy Skull - Interesting still however I will replace it. With which card can be found below.
(2) Khorne Cares Not - Likely still a decent inclusion but I'm currently still not a big fan of it. However it will likely be part of the deck anyway. I say this because both Stormcast and Orruks still out preform us in melee combat. Your able to score it at some point but it isn't likely it will occur before the third End phase. In addition while it's neat you certainly score it, if it means you have lost 4 fighters and your opponent 1 to 2 your still 2 Glory behind...
(1)It Begins - Remains a very solid inclusion. Especially thanks to the aggressive Orruk game it bound to occur, same with Undead. Will certainly keep including it.
(1)Draw the Gaze of Khorne - A solid inclusion versus Undead but otherwise still difficult to score. What's hurting us here the most is the fact that we only have one 3 damage hitter and 2 with 2. 
(1) There is Only Slaughter - Still an close to impossible to score for me, in addition there has come less and less reason to include it and new reason watch for Objectives.
(2) Let the Blood Flow - A solid inclusion against Undead and Orruks, not too easy to obtain phase 1 but 2 and 3 should be possible now with the new Upgrades, such as Helpful Whispers or Daemonic Weapon.
(6) Khorne's Champion - An uber win but not something I have ever seen scored like it's intended  Most who have had read it as you having 1 fighter, it requires us to have only 1 fighter while our opponents fighters are all gone! Too 'win more' for me.

So out of our collection I'd say Blood for the Bloodgod, It Begins and Let the Blood Flow remain great auto-inclusions. Khorne Cares Not and Draw the Gaze of Khorne are two Objectives I'm on the edge on.

Universal
A lot of new awesome stuff has been added! First let's cover the Core Set Universals again.
- Hold Objective 1 to 5 - To me still a very solid inclusion for Bloodreavers. Reason being that we do have the Movement advantage and I still feel we should use it to our advantage as much as possible. In addition there are several other Objectives who confirm them as still being a great inclusion. As before I do think Ironskull's can do without them but other than that I feel either Arnulf or Targor is often sitting around and it might aswell be an Objective  . (Ironskull's don't have this 'issue' because they are 4 Orruks, have Leadin By Example and a good reason to go as aggressive as possible due to easy Inspiration.)
- Denial, in all our games Denial was a make or breaker. Every Warband that has movement 3+ seems to have a good reason to include it and I think this applies to Garrek's Reavers aswell.
- Supremacy, a fantastic possible way to finish phase 1, it does depend on the dice roll mostly but can be a true consideration for pretty much all decks possibly excluding Stormcast. Do think it's an automatic inclusion for all decks who also have Hold 1 to 5.
- Conquest, neat before but I do think it can be skipped on now.
- Annihilation, too 'win more' for me.

- Blooded, unfortunatly I can't see this happening with our Bloodreavers, as before, I've had too many instances of them being dead or fully alive. Despite Daemonic Weapon, Insensate, Shattering Terrain and Khorne Calls I think it's just a bit too combo reliant.
- Bloodlesss, seems great for Stormcast but with our defences I'm not convinced.
- Brawl, a good consideration still but not as easy to score as with Ironskull's Boyz.
- Contained, a fantastic card for pretty much all decks as it's very much akin to Denial and usually does what you need in order to win the game. I believe many, if not all decks, should consider this together with Denial. 
- Crushing Force is a great card to use against us or the Sepulchral Guard. Against Stormcast or Orruks however I think it's very hard to score, 50/50 on this one.
- Determined Defender, a fine inclusion if you also have the Holds, especially because of our 5th guy. Same applies for Sepulchral Guard. There is no real reason for us to charge with 4 models so I think it's hard to deny the use for this card.
- Devide and Conquer is cool if you have the Distraction effects but Garrek's Reavers has no Ploy like that.
- Endless Slaughter, a semi Annihilation but still too difficult to score on the regular. Both Denial and Contained are easier to archieve as this. As they rely on pushes instead of kills and the first is easier to archieve  
- Flawless Strategy, currently too difficult in my eyes to obtain consistantly but still a cool card.
- Geared for War, likely guaranteed for phase 3 but only 1 Glory...
- Plant a Standard, almost interesting enough for Garrek's Reavers so this is a tester for me. I do think it's great to include for Ironskull's Boyz and Stormcast because they have several Objectives akin to it... Still a dangerous thing to do. 
- Ploymaster an auto inclusion for every deck soon!  
- Reaper, a little too difficult for my liking. Possibly great with Karsus but still... Hmmm...
- Scent of Victory, don't like it as it rewards something you don't want to do otherwise minimally. Neat with Karsus Inspired but otherwise not a fan. Kills usually advance your game further.
- Stymied, this shouldn't ever happen.
- Superior Tactician, very cool but also hard to archieve consistantly, so because of that I can't include it in most decks. It's another 'win-more' example most of the time.
- Swift Advance, great inclusion if you completely discard the Hold Objectives.
- Tactical Supremacy 1-2 and 3-4, a maby for the Sepulchral Guard but too many things have to fold in your luck for this to be scored. It's not impossible but means your on the defences and in my eyes this is only possible on a long board now. 
- The Harvest Begins, does reward a cool combo set up but likely remains too hard to do.
- Twilight Conquerer, too hard for pretty much every Warband in my opinion.
- Victorious Dual, initially I skipped on this card but do think there is a reason to include it for pretty much every Warband, even Sepulchral Guard. The reason is that so far all Warbands had one thing in common which is Upgrading the Leader is a good plan. In almost all cases a Leader should be deployed mid-field and because of that connecting them isn't too difficult with pushes or movement. While Garrek doesn't have terribly exciting Upgrades most of the time it's still the most solid plan to attach Upgrades to him so he can dominate in the second or third phase. When this occurs meating up with The Warden, Steelheart or Gurzag is actually a good plan. 

So that's my thake on it for now. At this moment I do believe the option to skip on Hold Objectives is truely there but I also think that keeping them in has enough reasons too.

Objective Placement
With the expansions I can give some more insight as to why I like them so much, something I really couldn't define just with the Core Set.
Garrek's Reavers remain to have the advantage of movement still and it means that we are actually more capable of placing Objectives just after the 2nd row from the Neutral where both Orruks and Stormcast are more forced to place them on or near the Neutral. Unlike them we can thus actively make a better choice to sit on them, whilst attacking in some cases, such as with Karsus.

Difficulties
The continious issue I have with Bloodreavers absolutely doesn't come from their ability to not keep Objectives. This issue is more appearant with Stormcast. My issue really is creating a form of consistent damage output and Inspiring whilst Garrek, Saek AND Karsus are around. This is so ever difficult because Saek and Karsus are also our initial hitters as they can confirm kills more likely whilst at the same time they only have 3 wounds and Dodge defence.  

Lastly I do think that the new sets have given the Bloodreavers a great push in the right direction however this push was absolutely not exclusive for them. So as I continue to explore them I hope I'll find more victory in being able to reset Saek or Karsus with Ilusonary Fighter, crank out more damage with Time Trap and hopefully stick around thanks to Parry and Soultrap. The issue? Well... I see no reason as to why most other decks won't include Time Trap, Parry and Soultrap aswell. Illusonary Fighter is great for the first phase but it's effective use does dwindle as phases go on, especially if the game will be as Denial and Containment orientated as I think it will/should be until the next expansions.

[Juicemonger]

4 hours ago, Killax said:

Objective Placement
With the expansions I can give some more insight as to why I like them so much, something I really couldn't define just with the Core Set.
Garrek's Reavers remain to have the advantage of movement still and it means that we are actually more capable of placing Objectives just after the 2nd row from the Neutral where both Orruks and Stormcast are more forced to place them on or near the Neutral. Unlike them we can thus actively make a better choice to sit on them, whilst attacking in some cases, such as with Karsus.

You read my mind. With our primary advantage being speed, I think board choice, objective placement and model deployment are key to our success. Also, I've been thinking about activation efficiency. We have 5 models, 4 activations, and no special actions like the skeletons to increase activation efficiency. Can you arrange the board so that you can snag 2-3 objectives turn 1 without losing models? Can you do that just barely outside of your opponents threat range to pounce turn 2? Can you scatter turn 3 with your surviving models to snag position or hold objective based glory turn 3?

[Tonhel]

I don't have anything to add, but just want to say that I really enjoyed the posts here. I currently have played 5 games with Bloodreavers against Stormcast and only won 1 time. The last two battles I used the new cards from the two expansions, but I really made a bad deck. To few ploy cards, to many upgrade cards and my objective deck was also bad.

Tomorrow I play against another Stormcast player (who doens't have the expansion sets). I altered my deck after reading this topic. ;-)

I really like Shadespire and it makes me like AoS even more!

Edited November 14, 2017 by Tonhel

[Killax]

Cheers @Tonhel, I mean just because the paths to victory for Garrek's Reavers seem less clear to me as the others I still have to say that finesse is a thing and Movement is likely one of the less obvious aspects of any fighter, especially since we're getting used to more and more different styles of play. Despite losing against the Ironskulls for example the game itself didn't feel as far out of reach as it often does against Stormcast and quite frankly with the more Universal cards comming the gap becomes smaller because not having "fantastic" Bloodreaver exclusive cards isn't a huge issue ******.

Garrek's Reaver's Power card review 2.0:
Ploys
- Blood Offering, still don't like the damage required to be taken personally here, as it doesn't contribute to more damage output. Perhaps future combo's will be available for it but currently I'd rather have a Shattering Terrain if I'd be in the business of damaging myself for more effect. Remember, whilst we do score an automatic point of damage, the only thing we really require is a draw or succes here. It seems good enough for Arnulf or Targor to me, it means they have some potential before dying  
- Blood Rain, luckily we have better things to do now. No inclusion for me.
- Boon of Khorne remains interesting but still not an inclusion for me.
- Desecrate, nope.
- Final Blow, automatic damage is all everybody really wants in this game.
- Fuelled by Slaughter, has become way more interesting now. To me a great inclusion against Orruks and Undead. What signs the deal is Upgrades like Daemonic Weapon.
- Insensate, excellent.
- Khorne Calls, decent, uncertain of inclusion but will probably keep it around.
- Rebirth in Blood, I personally don't think it does anything we need. It's like an Stormcast card got jammed into Bloodreavers (or something). 
- Skulls for the Skull Throne, it's again not bad but also not doing as much as I'd like. The thing is, it actually only draws you 1 additional card for a task that requires better Power cards to be certain. 

Since the expansions I must say it isn't unlikely to see only 4 of the exclusive Ploy cards and 4 exclusive Upgrade cards ending up in my deck. Somehow 3-4 also applies for the Objective decks I mostly make... Wether or not this is intended I really don't know. 

Upgrades
- Berserk Charge, not sold on it, love Upgrades on Saek just not this one in particular.
- Bloodslick, it's not amazing by comparison but not bad either. Keeping Garrek around is a plan, ensuring that plan is a good one.
- Deadly Spin, even with Undead this isn't going to accumulate to much. Oddly if Targor does inspire I can't even see myself using the granted attack.
- Ever-Advancing, initially dismissed it but will certainly give it a new try. Reason being Denial and Contained. Push effects somehow are very hard to come by for Bloodreavers and this one actually might end up doing something.
- Frenzy, allround great.
- Grisly Trophy, still not my cup of tea. Garrek hits decently hard when Inspired but I feel better options are around. It does something when your ahead, not when your stabilizing or behind.
- Terrifying Howl, unlike Ever-Advancing's push it isn't worth giving up Activations for pushing.
- Unstoppable Charge, neat idea but Movement 4/5 is what makes us unstoppable, unless placement was wrong and we can't afford that to begin with.
- Whirlwind of Death, allround great, to bad it's exclusive to Karsus but we thake what we can get.
- Wicked Blade, removed it again, still on the fence about it, it isn't bad but it's exclusive to Arnulf which isn't good either.

So as with the exclusive Ploys, new plans will continue with proven strategies. Bloodslick gives Garrek an ever so slightly edge, so does Ever-Advancing for Objective purposes and both Frenzy and Whirlwind of Death have never dissapointed me. 

One dream I still have is that one of the 2018 sets will include a Universal Cleave Upgrade. I feel this would bring all factions much closer together. As we see some Ploy countering I'm sure we'll see Upgrade removal aswell so it shouldn't skew the game in any direction...

Universal Ploys and Upgrades
As before fans of Khorne really will want to pick them all up because I do feel that many of the Universal cards are required. I could cover them all but the ones I just would want to continue and recommend to anyone is:
- Sidestep
- Shardfall
- Great Strength
- Distraction
- Fortify (only for when you have the Holds though)
- Illusory Fighter, cool card because it's almost exclusively good for us
- Shattering Terrain (automatic damage is very welcome for all)
- Time Trap (still a bit uncertain if it needs to be in all decks or none at all  )
- Daemonic Weapon, hitting harder yay!
- Helpful Whispers, most of the time is a better Berserk Charge, as it's available to all.
- Soultrap
- Shadeglass Sword, live is short for Arnulf and Targor anyway (didn't mention it for Sepulchral Guard but it can likely fit in there too). I think everybody should be willing to thinker with this, Shadeglass Darts or Coordinated Attack...

All of this pretty much sets up something new  So will update the deck tomorrow and share the new look I guess.

Cheers,

Edited November 15, 2017 by Killax

[Biboune]

On 13/11/2017 at 8:07 AM, Killax said:

 

- Blood Offering is neat but doesn't come close to re-rolling attacks, making another attack or most specifically adding damage to an attack. It's both funny and a little sad that Bloodreavers are in reality also the only Warband who cannot go to 4 damage.
 

I don't really agree with you on this point: it seems to me that rolling 2 more dices with Saek is better than re-rolling attacks against a Stormcast. An attack with 4 dice against 1 defence as better chances to be succesful than an attack with 2 dices against 1 re-rolling against 1 or 2 dices(50/50 chances to get the stormcast inspired).

 

I agree with you on the other points but i ll keep playing with the bloodreavers anyway. I think that some weapon upgrades can be usefull : the deamonic or the glass blade mostly because they turn Arnulf and Targor into dommage dealers. They are likely to die after attacking, so suffering 1 wound or loosing the upgrade is not so important. I don't think we should focus on doing 4 damages but on doing 2/1 and then 2/3 damages.

Then I think we need to focus on things that can save our reavers: soultrap, illusonary fighter, on your feet. Healing seems not as good as a 50/50 chance to survive because they die at the first strike.

[Killax]

8 hours ago, Biboune said:

I don't really agree with you on this point: it seems to me that rolling 2 more dices with Saek is better than re-rolling attacks against a Stormcast. An attack with 4 dice against 1 defence as better chances to be succesful than an attack with 2 dices against 1 re-rolling against 1 or 2 dices(50/50 chances to get the stormcast inspired).

 

Rolling more dices is somewhat more effective except that Blood Offering means one of our fighters suffers 1 damage aswell, which isn't improving his damage output on the spot, it's just improving the chances to hit. The moment it is used by Saek or Karsus 2 damage hits now kill them, it means Brightshield is now able to kill either, all Ironskull's Boyz are able to kill them inspired, it means even our Arnulf gets a shot at it and in the Sepulchral Guard now the Warden, Harvester and Champion get to kill someone with one swing. Better put, I do not like the trade of made here. It's as if you give Righteous Zeal to your enemy for free.

I will keep playing Garrek's Reavers for now too, results will be updated and hopefully the games will get a little more exciting. I think that the ploys help us surviving but I feel our biggest lack is the lack of solid damage output. The moment a Universal Upgrade comes out that hands out Cleave though that fix would be a really big one. I'm absolutely not 100% certain such an Upgrade will come but I think it should.

Cheers,

[Biboune]

6 hours ago, Killax said:

Rolling more dices is somewhat more effective except that Blood Offering means one of our fighters suffers 1 damage aswell, which isn't improving his damage output on the spot, it's just improving the chances to hit. The moment it is used by Saek or Karsus 2 damage hits now kill them, it means Brightshield is now able to kill either, all Ironskull's Boyz are able to kill them inspired, it means even our Arnulf gets a shot at it and in the Sepulchral Guard now the Warden, Harvester and Champion get to kill someone with one swing. Better put, I do not like the trade of made here. It's as if you give Righteous Zeal to your enemy for free.

 

It is not perfect, i agree. But I ll give it a try because:

-against stormcast: our better mobility may let us target Brightshield, if we can kill her, both of the stormcasts left can deal 3 damages so suffering 1 wound is not that important.

-against orks it less simple but we are more likely to charge Hakka or Basha in the first turn with Saek (for example) and then loosing 1 wound to them: doesn't matter if we survive with 2 wound, we can can loose 1 more to charge with 2 more dices Gurzag or Bonnekutta, being 1 or 2 wound left would not matter too.

-killing one enemy can also trigger some of our ploys.

-insasate (insensible in french: next friend suffer only 1 damage next activation phase (wording is not clear: is it for the first activation of the round or for the whole action phase?)) can help, or last blow can help to finish the enemy.

-more chances to hit helps us for "let's the blood flow" (3 successful attack actions), killing one orruk or stormcast helps us for "it's begin" and to inspire the rest of our bloodreavers.

-I have not played against the Guard, but I don't think i would fell as "scared" in front of them, so having something useful against orruk and stormacast and useless against the Guard seems to me a not-so-bad deal.

I don't say that I am good at the game but I fell that bloodreavers should be seen as "missiles" (they are almost like dead as soon as they charge) where stormcasts and orruk are tanks. I won't try to make the reavers more tanky, I'll try to "reload" the missiles with souldtrap, on our feet or illusionary fighter (or shoot twice with time trap and fulled by blood).

Last point: I hope that the meta will lead the orruk and sortmcast to build their decks to counter each other or mirror games. If they have some cards aiming to deal more damage that get less useful against us because we don't try to play tanks like them; it is still a minor benefice.

[Juicemonger]

Lots of great discussion on cards. I want to pick your brains regarding deployment strategy. What game boards do you favor and why? What are your goals with objective placement? Do you place your models aggressively, or hang back as well as who do you put out front?

Right now I favor the Crypt or Blue/Statue boards. The blocked hexes on Wall or Staircase boards seem like they'd impede our mobility as well as limiting objective placement.

I've been experimenting with how tight I can pack 3 objectives. You can place them in a triangle, but 2 corners have to be 3 hexes apart. If you place them horizontally in a line you can keep them exactly 2 spaces apart. You can also slant the line if your opponent offsets the boards to create a chokepoint. The goal is to keep each objective just outside your opponents threat range, but close enough to collapse the warband in turn 2 for the fight.

As for deployment I'm trying to keep Garrek and possibly Targor in charge range of 1 enemy model. The hope is an Ork, Stormcast, or Reaver takes the bait and over commits. With 3 models on objectives while still being in charge range they can pounce turn 2 and start to do damage with upgrades and support bonuses.

I'm interested in any critique as well as hearing about your general game plans.

[Killax]

2 hours ago, Biboune said:

It is not perfect, i agree. But I ll give it a try because:

-against stormcast: our better mobility may let us target Brightshield, if we can kill her, both of the stormcasts left can deal 3 damages so suffering 1 wound is not that important.

-against orks it less simple but we are more likely to charge Hakka or Basha in the first turn with Saek (for example) and then loosing 1 wound to them: doesn't matter if we survive with 2 wound, we can can loose 1 more to charge with 2 more dices Gurzag or Bonnekutta, being 1 or 2 wound left would not matter too.

-killing one enemy can also trigger some of our ploys.

-insasate (insensible in french: next friend suffer only 1 damage next activation phase (wording is not clear: is it for the first activation of the round or for the whole action phase?)) can help, or last blow can help to finish the enemy.

-more chances to hit helps us for "let's the blood flow" (3 successful attack actions), killing one orruk or stormcast helps us for "it's begin" and to inspire the rest of our bloodreavers.

-I have not played against the Guard, but I don't think i would fell as "scared" in front of them, so having something useful against orruk and stormacast and useless against the Guard seems to me a not-so-bad deal.

I certainly see where you are going but still have the same counter arguments as above.
- Going for Brightshield is indeed not a bad idea with Saek, the downside though is that because of Blood Sacrifice Saek is now in the danger zone versus her too. I think the moment Saek will charge her the chances are high she will thake him out. Offcourse it contributes to the eventual kills required but otherwise am just not too convinced of the plan of action still. Prime reason being that Saek is also the only fighter currently we have that can obtain Cleave by himself. This, to me at least, makes him extremely important in any Orruk and Stormcast match up. When Saek does deal 3 damage we're in a good spot, when he doesn't I'd rather "Shattering Terrain buff" him so that we can really attempt to deal 4 damage in one go.
- I personally have found that neither Hakka or Basha are the key targets in the Orruk match up. Instead focusing on Bonekutta or Gurzag is usually a better plan as the game unfolds. I say this because both Hakka and Basha don't really threat anything un-Inspired or Inspired without additional Upgrades.
- Insensate indeed always helps, killing enemies is everybodies plan of action. As we don't really need more damage from Saek versus Sepulchral Guard I really never feel any inclination to deal damage to him myself.

2 hours ago, Biboune said:

I don't say that I am good at the game but I fell that bloodreavers should be seen as "missiles" (they are almost like dead as soon as they charge) where stormcasts and orruk are tanks. I won't try to make the reavers more tanky, I'll try to "reload" the missiles with souldtrap, on our feet or illusionary fighter (or shoot twice with time trap and fulled by blood).

Last point: I hope that the meta will lead the orruk and sortmcast to build their decks to counter each other or mirror games. If they have some cards aiming to deal more damage that get less useful against us because we don't try to play tanks like them; it is still a minor benefice.

I think some of our Bloodreavers are missles and we can really go damage them and Daemonic Weapon them up. These would be Arnulf or Targor. So far I agree on making tanks isn't a likely plan, though for Garrek I am wiling to make the exception with Bloodslick, the reason is that practically any deck has the reasons to run a 'kill the leader' Objective. In addition to that Ever-Advancing is good the moment you have decent defences. 

So far I do believe that the Orruks and Stormcast will counter-build towards each other but because of that the lack of Cleave options does hurt Garrek's Reavers in particular right now.

What I do really like as opposed to before is that both Arnulf and Targor make a functional 4th fighter the moment Daemonic Weapon and Shadeglass Sword are added. The latter is a single use but with them so is Daemonic Weapon. Though where we likely agree is that these are our missles and expandable models anyway. 

The deck ready for some new games tomorrow is:
Ploy
- Final Blow, Khorne Calls, Insensate, Fuelled by Slaughter, Sidestep, Shardfall, Distraction, Illusory Fighter, Shattering Terrain, Time Trap
Upgrades
- Blood Slick, Frenzy, Ever-Advancing, Whirlwind of Death, Great Strenght, Daemonic Weapon, Helpful Whispers, Soultrap, Shardcaller, Shadeglass Sword
Objectives
- Blood for the Bloodgod, Khorne cares Not, It Begins, Let the Blood Flow, Hold 1-5, Ploymaster, Denial, Conquest

More updates tomorrow!

 

[Killax]

14 minutes ago, Juicemonger said:

Lots of great discussion on cards. I want to pick your brains regarding deployment strategy. What game boards do you favor and why?
What are your goals with objective placement?
Do you place your models aggressively, or hang back as well as who do you put out front?

Right now I favor the Crypt or Blue/Statue boards. The blocked hexes on Wall or Staircase boards seem like they'd impede our mobility as well as limiting objective placement.

I've been experimenting with how tight I can pack 3 objectives. You can place them in a triangle, but 2 corners have to be 3 hexes apart. If you place them horizontally in a line you can keep them exactly 2 spaces apart. You can also slant the line if your opponent offsets the boards to create a chokepoint. The goal is to keep each objective just outside your opponents threat range, but close enough to collapse the warband in turn 2 for the fight.

As for deployment I'm trying to keep Garrek and possibly Targor in charge range of 1 enemy model. The hope is an Ork, Stormcast, or Reaver takes the bait and over commits. With 3 models on objectives while still being in charge range they can pounce turn 2 and start to do damage with upgrades and support bonuses.

I'm interested in any critique as well as hearing about your general game plans.

So far I pick the long set up if I'm able  Otherwise every board but the Starcase has not been dissapointing either. The biggest downside of the Staircase is that it's very easy to bog down the remaining fighters, in a lot of cases many things can go wrong. For setting up first I'm still totally okay with the open fields (all). The reason for this is that it allows us to utilize our movements ideally and also means we are much less affected by a Shardfall. Which in turn allows us to choke down at irritating times aswell. 
For Objective placement the match up really differs. For Stormcast and Orruks I tend to place them midfield, just out of their reach unless they want to over commit. Versus Sepulchral Guard we can play much more aggressively. They want them too so it means they will move forwards, which allows us to pick them of.
So far I always try to midfield Saek, Karsus and Garrek, for obvious reasons Karsus can be put a little more backwards. Both Arnulf and Targor usually get hit first and if they don't, they move to the midfield Objectives.

Because of our Movement 4 I usually don't pack my Objectives tightly as again it means our opponents in theory have to engage or go for the Objective. Doing both is much more possible and dangerous versus Orruks and Stormcast. Other than that I indeed usually try to bait out with Targor and Arnulf. As before we can put them in reverse if the bait isn't taken. 

 

[Juicemonger]

32 minutes ago, Killax said:

Because of our Movement 4 I usually don't pack my Objectives tightly as again it means our opponents in theory have to engage or go for the Objective. Doing both is much more possible and dangerous versus Orruks and Stormcast. Other than that I indeed usually try to bait out with Targor and Arnulf. As before we can put them in reverse if the bait isn't taken. 

 

You bring up a good point. My original line of thinking was clump objectives, less moving plus movement ploys might create greater activation efficiency and create more support opportunities. However, the difference between an attack and a charge is marginal unless Saek is upgraded AND survives to swing multiple times.

Do you find that long board deployments change the timing of engagement, or is it a subtle change of 1 or 2 hexes further between opposing deployments?