Let's Chat: Order Serpentis

[AsraiR]

Ahoy friends and neighbours of order, my Black Dragon and Hydra have been giving me the look from my desk so its time for some discussion.

Have people played our not-so gallant knightly aelven brethren on the table? What are your thoughts?

I've just done a big aelven audit and I have a lot of options one way or another for any Aelven force (still debating the stupid huge cavalry list lol)

I've pulled this idea together for now which only requires a few purchases and is not at all influenced by me having been playing Druchii in Total War: Warhammer 2:

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Exile Blade & Tyrant Shield

Battleline
3 x Drakespawn Chariots (300)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
5 x Dark Riders (120)
- Shadowblades Battleline
5 x Dark Riders (120)
- Shadowblades Battleline
5 x Dark Riders (120)
- Shadowblades Battleline

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)

Battalions
Ebondrake Warhost (160)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400

 

I'm very conscious that while the list is fast and has a bit of shooting its lacking in the hero department without chucking in some allied heroes, which eats up the rest of my budget (sorceress on black dragon) or are not really mobile enough to keep up/doesn't synergise/doesn't fit the theme (most everything else).

What are peoples thoughts here?
 

[Austin]

I've been kicking around some of these same ideas for a list, and so far (just like you said) the lack of heroes makes me not take the final steps of playing them. I like the chariots, but what do you see the Dark Riders doing in a game? I think three units of them might be excessive.

[GammaMage]

The Drakespawn Knights are really good! Especially if you can ally in a wizard to cast Mystic Shield on them. The Dark Riders are fast, but don't do much damage. They do keep up with the dragon if that's important to you. I'm playing them mostly to screen my Sorceress on Black Dragon, but of course she's squisher and less smashy than your Dreadord on Black Dragon.

You can use Anvilgard Allegiance for the army you listed above, as Order Serpentis and Shadowblades are both allowed in Anvilgard. That uses normal Order allegiance abilities, but gives you an extra battletrait that can possibly (on a 5+ roll) force enemy units to move out of combat with your units during your hero phase. That allows the Drakespawn Knights to charge in your charge phase, which helps their lances do more damage!

[AsraiR]

Dark Riders, comically enough was more about rule of cool and theme as I like the idea of the outriders before the cavalry host. I only have the one unit of them so the list plan is completely malleable.

I had thought of the Warlocks to add some magical support as you can get them and two units of Dark Riders for 400 points easily.

Not had the pennies to pick up firestorm so I've not looked too deep into the additional rules.

[Kaleun]

This might help you:

 

[AsraiR]

Thanks I shall I have a look.

Has anyone run the chariots out of curiosity, other than to fill the battalion requirement are they worth it?

[danyboy]

I'm very slowly building branch of my DE on Cold Ones, but it will take ages to build and paint. Please give feedback how you Order Serpentis works in practice

[Sarkazim]

I've not built the army but I have proxy-tested a few games as I am looking into it to expand my forces.  So I've only had a few games in a very friendly setting, but here are my thoughts.

Dreadlord on Dragon: As you can see, you're lone hero with 'All your Eggs in one Basket' scenario.  In a straight OS list, he's usually the first into battle, which can hang him out to dry if you're not careful.  As so many of the OS abilities/tactics are centered around him, it just pours lemon juice on a fresh wound.  Dark Riders are a good support unit for him because they can keep up with him, and can be sacrificed to other units that will attempt to gang up on him.  This will buy you time for your Knights to get into position.

Drakespawn Knights:  Really tough to remove.  Dark Shields are amazing especially, when  you get them into combat. 'Mystic Shield' makes them pretty much immune to standard attacks.  Their Bravery bonuses are pretty good should an opponent get through enough damage to even worry about it, and the minute one does flee, the Dreadlord says the rest of the army doesn't need to take a test.  

Their Drawback is in their damage output, with no rend and being entirely dependent on charging to do the brunt of the damage.  I felt that with no Rend, any unit that can take the charge and not break, turned into a grind fest where the only advantage that the Knights have is the ability to grind down their opponents before they die, even if it took the whole game.  ** I should note that I feel that their damage is lacking compared to their Seraphon counterparts, which have bonuses provided by their heroes to help with the damage.

Drakespawn Chariots: I can't really see much use for these guys outside of needing them for the Warhost.  They seemed to work best following and attacking everything a unit of Knights did.  I even tried a few games where I ran them in a group on their own, but again just not enough Umph.  Their other issue is actually their size.  In order to optimize the Mortal Wounds, you want to turn them sideways to get as many enemy models in range as possible.  This along with the Knights really affected the Hydras.  As one of the few sources of Mortal Wounds, they're not something that can reliably do so.

War Hydra: As the slowest unit in the army these guys are pretty much used for clean up duty.  What I found though was that with the Knights and the Chariots (turning them sideways), it was difficult to get them in simply because the rest of the army doesn't die to leave gaps.  Retreating one of the units just before bringing the War Hydra is the tactic, so that you're setup to re-charge the Knights in the following phase, but I felt the loss of those attacks didn't improve the situation in the game.  

Ebondrake Warhost: This hasn't really been worth the investment since you can get 5 more Knights for the same cost.  In order to take advantage of the re-rolls, you'll have to maximize how many OS units you're taking.  I'm sure the math hammer guys can tell you whether the re-rolls on wounds is worth giving up the additional attacks that 5 more Knights will bring, but I found it better to just have the Knights.  This also means that taking Allies also cuts into how many units are going to take advantage of the Battalion. 

Unless I've overlooked something, the ability to, once per game, to charge within 12" BEFORE the movement phase really just leaves you scratching your head.  You don't get to attack, and you're more likely to make the charge after the movement phase, than before it.  You still have to wait until the combat phase to actually do any attacks, and if you fail the charge, you don't get to move until the movement phase anyways.  If this was a once per game 2D6" movement in the hero phase or allow the charge even if engaged, then it would be useful.

The only change to this is the Anvilguard.  Since both happen in the Hero Phase, the Anvilguard ability would be selected to go first, possibly forcing the retreat of the enemy leaving your units free.  Then you can trigger the Warhost ability, and re-charge the units in front, ideally to units off to the side, so that the Hydras in the rear can charge the units that are closer.  Something that will still happen in the movement phase, but would be cool if you could pull it off, even for 1 game.

-----
Don't have much to say on Allies outside of Dark Riders. 

[Sarkazim]

Based on a Discussion on a different thread, I've been brainstorming some ideas.

If you wanted to go full Order Serpentis, then taking them as part of an Anvilguard force is a good way to go.  Even though the other Dark Aelves and Stormcast are listed as part of the Allegiance, you're still stuck to taking any of those as Allies, unless you plan on squeezing in some standard Battleline.  This really eats into points however if you want to keep the focus on the Order Serpentis units.  

Taking that advice into account though, here are 2 lists that might be worth a look.  NO, they're not competetive by any means, but this thread should be about making them work right?  These are just my thoughts on it, as I'm leaning toward building an Order Serpentis list as I already have the 3 Monsters.

-----

Dreadlord On Black Dragon 
20 x Drakespawn Knights (10/5/5)
2 x Drakespawn Chariots
2 x War Hydra 
Ebondrake Warhost (160)

--Allies-- (To keep Battleline)
1 x Assassin or Sorceress 
2 x Scourgerunner Chariots
* Alternatively, you could just run 2 more Drakespawn Chariots if you wanted.

Here you still have a core OS list with a bit of Flex.  You have the Battalion in there so you can re-roll wound rolls of a 1.  This is pretty good on the Knights as they go to a 3+ to wound and you'd re-roll 1's.  The hope is that with any unit's running, you'll get to see more charges than you would in a pure OS list.  The Scourgerunner Chariots are just a little bit faster, have a decent ranged attack, and don't have to be in combat like the Drakespawn Chariots do.  Player preference really, since they're the same cost, it's no big deal.  The Sorceress or Assassin will most likely die anyways, but the Sorceress with Mystic Shield for the one turn could help.  The Assassin can go wherever, but he'll most likely tag along with the Dreadlord as an extra umph should your opponent expose a key character.  Either way, they're there so you can at least make use of the additional artefact that the Battalion gives you.

-----

Dreadlord On Black Dragon 
20 x Drakespawn Knights (10/5/5)
2-4 x Drakespawn Chariots 
2 x War Hydra 
12-18 Aetherwing (Depending on how many Chariots you bring)

I firmly believe that Aetherwings are going to be a key unit in making Anvilguard work.  Even if you don't run their Stormcast counterparts, they're cheap, fast, can fly, and have the ability to retreat and charge.  They'll be in your opponents back line so that when he runs, you'll have have most of the routes covered that having a unit within 3" will be more common than any of the other units available in the Allegiance.  Like the above list, you'll have to keep them as allies if you want to maintain the Drakespawn as Battleline.   Even if you do, you can get 18 bases under the allowance.   

The bigger issue is getting Aetherwings isn't available without their counterpart.  So you'd have to proxy.  I think the Razorwing Flock from 40k would be a great alternative to fit with the Dark Aelves.  Unless someone else knows of any other Alternatives.  

-----
Had to get this down because I couldn't think about anything else for a while. 

[Kaleun]

I like the Idea with the Aetherwings! A 2000 point army could look like this:

Allegiance: Order Serpentis

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Trait: Reckless
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion

Battleline
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
3 x Drakespawn Chariots (300)
- Order Serpentis Battleline

Units
6 x Aetherwings (120)
- Allies
6 x Aetherwings (120)
- Allies
6 x Aetherwings (120)
- Allies

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)

Battalions
Ebondrake Warhost (160)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 360 / 400

[Sarkazim]

I like that list, assuming you're going off of Anvilguard as well.

I know we disagree on the Hydras, but the reason I'm stuck on 2 of them being necessary is for 'Knife to the Heart' (Is that the one where only Characters/Behemoths can score?)  So I'm curious about your thoughts on only having the 2 models that can score?  I can easily see one Hydra camping the one objective, and simply denying him the second one, which is going to be more problematic for the opponent with the Anvilguard.  With his ability to fly, I just see the Dreadlord helping out the Aetherwings by cutting off escape routes for the enemy and not sitting on the second objective?  

That aside, I already own two, as I need them as allies in my Shadowblades army for the same scenario.  So will be running them even if I expand into Order Serpentis.  I haven't committed to actually getting the Drakespawn Knights yet, so I'm here like everyone else.  Getting advice/perspectives before I commit.  Thanks.

This is just the next process after playing a game (not with Order Serpentis...) yesterday.
-----

Allegiance: Anvilguard / Order Serpentis

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Exile Blade & Tyrant Shield

Battleline
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
2 x Drakespawn Chariots (200)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
2 x Drakespawn Chariots (200)
- Order Serpentis Battleline

Units
6 x Aetherwings (120)
- Allies
6 x Aetherwings (120)
- Allies

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)
War Hydra (200)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 240 / 400

It drops the Ebondrake Warhost.  My thought here was to just use the points and get more riders.  The Dreadlord still has the ability to pick one unit and have them re-roll all fails instead of the 1's, and with it's 14" range he should be able to give that to whichever unit breaks no matter where he is.  The large unit will be the 'centerpiece' of the army, to prevent my opponent from blowing out the middle of my forces and splitting them.  Mathematically, I just like the idea of having 3 different units of Knights, because statistically one of them should break a unit every turn.  Dice are fickle, but I think this will be the easiest way to track it working in my head. This will be supported by the War Hydras on either side of that unit to force my opponent to try and address the flanks of my army and hope that I can sweep one side of his army first. The smaller units, and Chariots are really there to just make it difficult for my opponent to bridge his units, which is how opponents will get around the Anvilguard.  We don't want our units locked in combat.  

It'll be easier to get the 12 Aetherwings than the 18 unless I find a better alternative.  I'm getting all the Knights/Chariots first, so there is some time there, but as I mainly play at a GW store, using 3rd party isn't going to be the best option.  I'll have all the models to cover my bases, but if I wanted to run the Ebondrake warhost, I could either drop the 10 man squad to 5, or 2 Chariots and throw it in.  Ideally, I'd like to own 30 Knights, but that's for more down the road though.

[Kyriakin]

I have been doing the assembly, priming and metallics of my fledgling "Darkling Covens" (with hydras as allies), but didnt commit to the purple yet.

i have to say thay my various green paints are calling out to me.

2 x DLoBD

2 x Hydras

1 x Chariot

1 x 10 Knights, 1 x 5 Knights

1 x 10 Executioners (allies)

2 x Sorceress (allies)

I make that 1960 points, and just 32 models. Plus, a Serpentis-styled Executioner unit could be as cool AF.

I think this is a better "list" in terms of models (DLoBD is inherently better than SoBD, IMHO), but do DC's additional toys give them the edge?

I actually prefer OS options for Allegiance Abilities (Order + Anvilguard) over DC's mediocre (IMHO) abilities.

Re-roll to wound Command Abilities cancel out (DLoBD's is slightly better), but additional Run-Charge/Run-Shoot ability gives it to DC.

DC Command Traits wipe the floor with Generic Order's. Impossibly Swift is amazingballs.

Artifacts tend to be "meh" in general, but again DC wins out, as I quite like the Shadowshroud Ring.

I will probably stick with DC, but if Order Serpentis ever got allegiance toys of its own... I would be tempted, for sure

[Twitch of Izalith]

I have all the units for the batallion but haven't painted the chariot yet. I was using them in an anvilguard list but the cold one knights are a little uninspiring on the tabletop. 

Every similar unit got a points drop in GH2017 except them, and 160 points is too high for what they do.

[Kyriakin]

1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

I have all the units for the batallion but haven't painted the chariot yet. I was using them in an anvilguard list but the cold one knights are a little uninspiring on the tabletop. 

Every similar unit got a points drop in GH2017 except them, and 160 points is too high for what they do.

The batallion leaves me cold.

Sure, rerolling ones in combat is decent enough (can that stack with the DLoBD command ability somehow?), but the extra charge is so "meh".

It might allow for a single drop. However, you will probably be filling up with allies and pethaps an additional DLoBD, so high drops are still likely.

Order artifacts are "meh". I guess your 2nd DLoBD, if applicable, will grab whichever of Quicksilver Potion or Phoenix Stone your general didn't take.

[Twitch of Izalith]

11 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

The batallion leaves me cold.

Yeah I don't even get why charging in the hero phase is going to be useful. Maybe there are some abilities out there that trigger in the charge phase and this allows you to avoid them but I don't know of anything specific.

I just got everything cos I'm a dark elf fanboy and I wanted all the units...

[Kyriakin]

One thing that struck me on the app is that it is a shame that Sorceress on Drakespawn got the Compendium keyword squatting.

It would be nice to have a visually-fitting sorceress that didnt cost allies points (thus allowing two units of, say, Executioners), as well as having a extra wound, +1 armour and the ability to keep up with your army.

Her unique spell sucks, but she would be on Mystic Shield duty anyway.

It's a shame.

Furthermore, Malus Darkblade (why is he still on the app?) would have been a fun, fluffy character too. But he got genericized into  the boring regular DLoDS and then keyword squatted to boot.

[flamingwalnut]

3 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Yeah I don't even get why charging in the hero phase is going to be useful. Maybe there are some abilities out there that trigger in the charge phase and this allows you to avoid them but I don't know of anything specific.

I just got everything cos I'm a dark elf fanboy and I wanted all the units...

One use for charging in the Hero Phase is that you can activate the Anvilguard "Push to Kill" ability AFTER the charge, making it easier to surround them. Doubt this was INTENDED, but who knows, maybe they intended Anvilguard to be an Ordo Serpentis thing way back when... 

[Kaleun]

On ‎27‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 5:39 PM, Kyriakin said:

One thing that struck me on the app is that it is a shame that Sorceress on Drakespawn got the Compendium keyword squatting.

It would be nice to have a visually-fitting sorceress that didnt cost allies points (thus allowing two units of, say, Executioners), as well as having a extra wound, +1 armour and the ability to keep up with your army.

Her unique spell sucks, but she would be on Mystic Shield duty anyway.

It's a shame.

Furthermore, Malus Darkblade (why is he still on the app?) would have been a fun, fluffy character too. But he got genericized into  the boring regular DLoDS and then keyword squatted to boot.

Sadly the named Characters are gone now. You have to use the old Warscroll if you want to Play Malus.


What experiences have you guys made with the order Serpentis / Anvilguard?

[Kyriakin]

5 hours ago, Kaleun said:

Sadly the named Characters are gone now. You have to use the old Warscroll if you want to Play Malus.

What experiences have you guys made with the order Serpentis / Anvilguard?

Sorceress on Drakespawn is still an official warscroll, though.

But you would have to get your opponent's permission to add the Order Serpentis keyword (which i guess she would have had if GW didnt decide to cull keywords from the models they arbitrarily stopped selling).

This would allow for 20 Executioners as allies, while still having some Mystic Shield protection for the knights.

----------------------------------

Yea, Anvilguard kinda feels like an unofficial OS alligiance ability, and they were even used as the example army for its initial announcement on the community page.

In combination with the generic Order alligiance ability, its not a bad situation.

Where OS loses hard is the lack of decent/unique Command Traits, compared to, say, Impossibly Swift for the SoBD.

[Kaleun]

18 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Sorceress on Drakespawn is still an official warscroll, though.

But you would have to get your opponent's permission to add the Order Serpentis keyword (which i guess she would have had if GW didnt decide to cull keywords from the models they arbitrarily stopped selling).

This would allow for 20 Executioners as allies, while still having some Mystic Shield protection for the knights.

----------------------------------

Yea, Anvilguard kinda feels like an unofficial OS alligiance ability, and they were even used as the example army for its initial announcement on the community page.

In combination with the generic Order alligiance ability, its not a bad situation.

Where OS loses hard is the lack of decent/unique Command Traits, compared to, say, Impossibly Swift for the SoBD.

It is sad that the Sorceress on Drakespawn isnt part of the OS. That additional Mystical shield would have been great. You can still ally a Sorceress on Black dragon in if you want.

Like so: (2 drops)

Allegiance: Anvilgard
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- Witch Rod
- Allies
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
2 x Drakespawn Chariots (200)
War Hydra (200)
Ebondrake Warhost (160)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 300 / 400
Wounds: 102

Some ideas are collected here regarding the Anvilguard:

 

[quina2525]

What about this:

Dreadlord on a black dragon 

Dreadlord on a black dragon

30 cold one knights (3×10 or 6×5??)

Hydra

Hydra

 

Smashy smashy, target saturation? Could be fun..? 

[syph0n]

Hi all, hope it's ok to drag up this topic. 

Got back into the hobby, loads of Dark Elves, but not enough to do much aside from Order Serpentis. This is good, I'll never paint loads of spears! 

So, playing my first game for 1k, list is limited obviously to:

Dragon

Hydra

2x5 Drakespawn Knights. 

From that point, I have the models to take a chariot, 2x assassins, a sorceress or drakespawn sorceress, bolt throwers, dreadlord on drakespawn, bsb on horse, even Malus (who I see is gone really). 

Playing a mate's StD list. Think he'll run a manticore and a chariot on top of the 50 quid get started box. 

Initial thoughts are to just take the chariot, leaving 60pts for a (pointless) Fleetmaster ally. Or, 2x assassins or 1x assassin and 1x sorceress. 

Not much to play with, not glamorous. But aelves on dinosaurs! Not playing to destroy people, but want to at least compete. 

I do have a load more models to ally within the 200 pts if any other ideas. 

[Kaleun]

@syph0n

well what is your question? The options of the Order Serpentis are very limited. The most important thing is to go for the Anvilguard Allegiance. Check out the "Lets chat: Anvilguard" Thread in this forum. There we have list building options and some tactics.

If you want to play Order Serpentis together with Reaper Bolt Throwers you have to use the Order Allegiance.

[syph0n]

10 hours ago, Kaleun said:

@syph0n

well what is your question? The options of the Order Serpentis are very limited. The most important thing is to go for the Anvilguard Allegiance. Check out the "Lets chat: Anvilguard" Thread in this forum. There we have list building options and some tactics.

If you want to play Order Serpentis together with Reaper Bolt Throwers you have to use the Order Allegiance.

The question was how to complete the 1k list from the options I gave, sorry, I should have been clearer! 

With me being new, I was under the impression I could go Order Serpentis allegiance to use the drakespawn units as battleline, dragon as general, hydra in behemoth, and fill the remaining points with allies or just the chariot (as per my original post). Is that not possible? I know the Azyr app is dodgy, but that was all valid when I tried because you only need 2 battleline @ 1k and you can take 200 pts of allies. 

I'll look at Anvilgard, but I guess that's going to be more important as I go up to 2k points. 

Tldr; in a 1k game, in addition to the usual OS stuff, do I take 2 assassins (ally) , 1 sorceress and 1 assassin (ally), a chariot (and Fleetmaster ally)  to fight a StD Chaos army? 

EDIT: In addition to the Q above to round out the 1k list, would this be legit for 1250?

 

Leaders
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Heart of Woe 
- Allies
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Exile Blade & Tyrant Shield
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Relic Blade

Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
1 x Drakespawn Chariots (100)
- Order Serpentis Battleline

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)

War Machines
Reaper Bolt Thrower (120)
- Allies

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1240 / 1250
Allies: 200 / 400
Wounds: 63
 

 

[Kaleun]

well the size of the game you play also depends on the other players you play against. If 1250 is the size you agree on its ok. Using the matched play rules in the GH2 3 Battlelines are required, which you have. You can only use 1 artefact though (not 2).

I have made the experience that 1 Sorceress with a Balewind Vortex is a bit squishy. Depends if you can hide her first turn from the enemy shooting.

A very small thing: The Reaper Bolt Thrower is technically no ally. You have the Order Allegiance now and can only choose from the Order Artefacts and the Order traits, as written down in the Generals Handbook 2. If you want the Anvilguard Allegiance (Firestorm Campaign) you have to drop the Reapter Bolt Thrower.